Fall 2017 allegations against unnamed players (aka Situation 2)

[Billiken Rich]

I think it's time for some commonsense troll control.  I do not believe there is a legitimate "sporting need" for posters like Aj and 314 and Trollkowsky.  We need a way to close the "steve's a nice guy" loop hole.  Clearly better mental health screening for posters can be part of the solution but I just don't see how we can sit and do nothing while this happens again and again.  It's time to ban assault posters for good......  

[Box and Won]

3 hours ago, kshoe said:

Also, why did we start a second thread on this after 4 months of keeping it all contained in one thread?

Exactly.

[majerus mojo]

26 minutes ago, DeSmetBilliken said:

I had heard some people suggest that Goodwin was the one expelled. Personally, I never gave it much credence because of Rosenblum's comment that the player expelled was represented by someone other than him. Chris Gardner reported that Graves wasn't represented by Rosenblum, so my guess is still that it was Graves.

If Goodwin was the one expelled initially, it makes this whole thing even more ridiculous. How would you reconcile expelling the guy when one of the "victims" specifically said it wasn't him?

Gotcha. I suppose Rosenblum could have been representing Goodwin, not from allegations of sexual assault, but merely for the reason that he was in the apartment at the time of the incident. And if none of the women accused him of sexual assault, or being part of the sexual activity, then that’s why the school allowed him to remain on the court? Didn’t one of the lawyers also comment that they didn’t understand why one of the players had been allowed to play throughout the investigation? It’s all so confusing ha 

[Bobby Metzinger]

56 minutes ago, NH said:

I don’t like this sentiment. I’m sure the girls had to give very detailed accounts to the school. We don’t have enough information to know whether they lied, what they said or anything like that. It’s not fair when people assume they know what happened with Goodwin without basis (Ortiz) and it’s absolutely not fair for anyone on here to assume they know enough to call for punishments for the accusers.

They weren’t punished because they now have been defined as victims. Lovely, ain’t it?

[SluSignGuy]

3 hours ago, kshoe said:

Also, why did we start a second thread on this after 4 months of keeping it all contained in one thread?

I agree with this sentiment, so I merged the "Retraction" thread into this one....

[CBFan]

14 minutes ago, Billiken Rich said:

I think it's time for some commonsense troll control.  I do not believe there is a legitimate "sporting need" for posters like Aj and 314 and Trollkowsky.  We need a way to close the "steve's a nice guy" loop hole.  Clearly better mental health screening for posters can be part of the solution but I just don't see how we can sit and do nothing while this happens again and again.  It's time to ban assault posters for good......  

You are a great poster on this site Rich but I respectfully disagree about banning posters.

The ignore function works great and I think the policing that good posters like yourself do by asking posters to not feed the troll works well.

I have been asked to not feed the troll and I put them on ignore.

I believe that some posters do not mind reading what the 3 mentioned posters say and that should not be taken away.

[DeSmetBilliken]

38 minutes ago, aj_arete said:

Moving the goalposts suggests to me that you don't understand what sexual assault is. Maybe you think it involves making sexual contact, but it goes beyond that. I have never said that Goodwin was involved in sex with the other girls and let's not make the assumption that Ortiz did either. Sexual assault is also sharing sexually explicit video, which is called sexual exploitation.  I'm not a lawyer and understand that having an expectation of privacy means that charge would be hard to prove.  However consenting to being recorded is different than having that video shared. Otherwise, you wouldn't have spouses or past sexual partners suing their past partners for sharing intimate videos to others. This isn't clear cut.

I had a nice response to this typed out, but lost it when this got merged into the other thread. Therefore, getting the shortened version.

Basically, I'm a lawyer and while I don't practice much criminal law, I know some just from going to law school and passing the bar exam in 2 states.

Basically, "assault" is attempted physical harm in another. The actual physical harm is battery, or rape or sexual battery in sex crimes. Sharing of a video doesn't have anything to do with physical harm, and therefore shouldn't be lumped in with "assault" offenses. Further, the term "sexual assault" gives the seemingly universally held connotation that a rape (non-consenting and forcible sexual inter course/contact) occurred, so I think it's irresponsible to lump the video sharing with the umbrella sexual assault term.

That's my issue with Ortiz's column. He didn't know, or at least he didn't represent that he knew, what policy Goodwin admitted to violating. Nevertheless, he made the representation that Goodwin admitted to violating the policy related to sexual assault, which leads people to think he committed a rape. That's irresponsible of Ortiz.

[SluSignGuy]

11 minutes ago, DeSmetBilliken said:

I had a nice response to this typed out, but lost it when this got merged into the other thread. Therefore, getting the shortened version.

Sorry bout that

[juniorbill76]

18 minutes ago, DeSmetBilliken said:

I had a nice response to this typed out, but lost it when this got merged into the other thread. Therefore, getting the shortened version.

Basically, I'm a lawyer and while I don't practice much criminal law, I know some just from going to law school and passing the bar exam in 2 states.

Basically, "assault" is attempted physical harm in another. The actual physical harm is battery, or rape or sexual battery in sex crimes. Sharing of a video doesn't have anything to do with physical harm, and therefore shouldn't be lumped in with "assault" offenses. Further, the term "sexual assault" gives the seemingly universally held connotation that a rape (non-consenting and forcible sexual inter course/contact) occurred, so I think it's irresponsible to lump the video sharing with the umbrella sexual assault term.

That's my issue with Ortiz's column. He didn't know, or at least he didn't represent that he knew, what policy Goodwin admitted to violating. Nevertheless, he made the representation that Goodwin admitted to violating the policy related to sexual assault, which leads people to think he committed a rape. That's irresponsible of Ortiz.

Or even reckless disregard.

[NH]

37 minutes ago, Bobby Metzinger said:

They weren’t punished because they now have been defined as victims. Lovely, ain’t it?

That’s kind of how allegations work man. It’s not like someone just up and chose to define them as that one day.

We just recently learned that Goodwin wasn’t even named by the accusers. We don’t really know what they claimed happen vs. what actually happened. The blame that goes around should be pointed at administration, Title IX advisors, Ortiz, etc.. 

[kshoe]

I have no desire to punish women that feel they were assaulted or make a criminal report if they do so in good faith. I presume that occurred here and considering one women continued with with this process she must have done it in somewhat good faith.

My only desire at this point is for SLU to dramatically refine its Title IX policies and to change the team that enforces those policies. I have absolutely no faith that the policy or people in charge of levying punishment do so in an unbiased manner. It is self-evident from the overnight bag story that men on SLU's campus aren't getting a fair shake. The ruling against these 4 players, in particular the initial ruling against Goodwin that is so far out of bounds for appropriateness for violation of school policy, is all the additional proof one should need.

People should focus on what can they do to improve the process, not whether a vindictive punishment against the women involved can be implemented.

[SLU_Lax]

Very well put KShoe.

I want to be clear that pursuing a vindictive punishment against Kratky and Weathers is 100% acceptable though (IMHO).

[kshoe]

2 minutes ago, SLU_Lax said:

Very well put KShoe.

I want to be clear that pursuing a vindictive punishment against Kratky and Weathers is 100% acceptable though (IMHO).

Agree 100%. Part of making sure the Title IX department levies its punishment in an unbiased manner requires removing people that are biased. They are at the top of that list.

[aj_arete]

1 hour ago, DeSmetBilliken said:

I had a nice response to this typed out, but lost it when this got merged into the other thread. Therefore, getting the shortened version.

Basically, I'm a lawyer and while I don't practice much criminal law, I know some just from going to law school and passing the bar exam in 2 states.

Basically, "assault" is attempted physical harm in another. The actual physical harm is battery, or rape or sexual battery in sex crimes. Sharing of a video doesn't have anything to do with physical harm, and therefore shouldn't be lumped in with "assault" offenses. Further, the term "sexual assault" gives the seemingly universally held connotation that a rape (non-consenting and forcible sexual inter course/contact) occurred, so I think it's irresponsible to lump the video sharing with the umbrella sexual assault term.

That's my issue with Ortiz's column. He didn't know, or at least he didn't represent that he knew, what policy Goodwin admitted to violating. Nevertheless, he made the representation that Goodwin admitted to violating the policy related to sexual assault, which leads people to think he committed a rape. That's irresponsible of Ortiz.

Fair enough. I'm done defending Jose Ortiz. I'll agree he went too far.

[Cowboy]

14 minutes ago, aj_arete said:

Fair enough. I'm done defending Jose Ortiz. I'll agree he went too far.

-okay, see you next time there is bad news around the program

[Basketbill]

7 hours ago, aj_arete said:

Fair enough. I'm done defending Jose Ortiz. I'll agree he went too far.

Can he do that?  Agree? How the hell are we going to get 500 pages if people start agreeing with each other?

[billiken_roy]

i think we should give AJ credit that once he read a few more tidbits he didnt know before, aj was open minded enough to admit Ortiz was wrong.  thanks AJ.

 

The reveal here for us billiken hardcores, the average casual fan doesnt have the insight we have and the will power to find out.  they are walking around, like AJ was,  convinced our players were guilty as charged and ford recruits bad character players and saint louis university is willing to hide transgressions in order to get their players on the court.   all of which are blatantly untrue.   

that's the crime that ortiz, bernie m,  pesty, krafty, and stormy, etc have committed.   and it is doubtful that the other million or so casual sports fans will take the time like AJ did to debate us and find the truth.   thus all the more reason ortiz, bernie M, and most important, saint louis university need to admit their wrong to the world.   they wont.  

[kshoe]

2 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

i think we should give AJ credit that once he read a few more tidbits he didnt know before, aj was open minded enough to admit Ortiz was wrong.  thanks AJ.

 

The reveal here for us billiken hardcores, the average casual fan doesnt have the insight we have and the will power to find out.  they are walking around, like AJ was,  convinced our players were guilty as charged and ford recruits bad character players and saint louis university is willing to hide transgressions in order to get their players on the court.   all of which are blatantly untrue.   

that's the crime that ortiz, bernie m,  pesty, krafty, and stormy, etc have committed.   and it is doubtful that the other million or so casual sports fans will take the time like AJ did to debate us and find the truth.   thus all the more reason ortiz, bernie M, and most important, saint louis university need to admit their wrong to the world.   they wont.  

I'm hopeful that one of these days (maybe Sunday) we are going to wake up to a front page article written by Ben Fred and/or someone else doing an expose on the SLU Title IX policy and process. It could start with a summary of the sleep-over bag girl article, a description of the composition of the Title IX department (effectively all women), a break-down of the process used on the 4 basketball players (including an appropriate questioning of the relationship of outside firms hired, timelines not followed, etc.), the relationship of the St. Louis prosecutor to the SLU Title IX department, the role a single person, Weathers, has in the final verdict, past racist accusations, etc.

Since SLU won't talk details, the Post could refer back to Goodwin's parents, Rosenbloom, Chris Gardener's tweets, any of the 3 players that are gone, and some unnamed sources within the police department that have seen the report of what occurred. They likely won't get all of them to talk but it only takes a few. With a little bit of digging and actual journalistic work, the puzzle of what actually occurred here could be discovered and reported. Maybe Sunday is too early to expect this to be complete but this isn't Watergate here. It just takes someone trying to figure it all out and having the guts to write something that won't be popular with the #metoo movement.

[billiken_roy]

1 minute ago, kshoe said:

I'm hopeful that one of these days (maybe Sunday) we are going to wake up to a front page article written by Ben Fred and/or someone else doing an expose on the SLU Title IX policy and process. It could start with a summary of the sleep-over bag girl article, a description of the composition of the Title IX department (effectively all women), a break-down of the process used on the 4 basketball players (including an appropriate questioning of the relationship of outside firms hired, timelines not followed, etc.), the relationship of the St. Louis prosecutor to the SLU Title IX department, the role a single person, Weathers, has in the final verdict, past racist accusations, etc.

Since SLU won't talk details, the Post could refer back to Goodwin's parents, Rosenbloom, Chris Gardener's tweets, any of the 3 players that are gone, and some unnamed sources within the police department that have seen the report of what occurred. They likely won't get all of them to talk but it only takes a few. With a little bit of digging and actual journalistic work, the puzzle of what actually occurred here could be discovered and reported. Maybe Sunday is too early to expect this to be complete but this isn't Watergate here. It just takes someone trying to figure it all out and having the guts to write something that won't be popular with the #metoo movement.

im as hopeful i win powerball saturday as well.   neither is likely to happen, but powerball has a better chance.  

great post though.  maybe someone at the post reads the board and will take on the challenge.  

[slufan13]

3 minutes ago, kshoe said:

I'm hopeful that one of these days (maybe Sunday) we are going to wake up to a front page article written by Ben Fred and/or someone else doing an expose on the SLU Title IX policy and process. It could start with a summary of the sleep-over bag girl article, a description of the composition of the Title IX department (effectively all women), a break-down of the process used on the 4 basketball players (including an appropriate questioning of the relationship of outside firms hired, timelines not followed, etc.), the relationship of the St. Louis prosecutor to the SLU Title IX department, the role a single person, Weathers, has in the final verdict, past racist accusations, etc.

Since SLU won't talk details, the Post could refer back to Goodwin's parents, Rosenbloom, Chris Gardener's tweets, any of the 3 players that are gone, and some unnamed sources within the police department that have seen the report of what occurred. They likely won't get all of them to talk but it only takes a few. With a little bit of digging and actual journalistic work, the puzzle of what actually occurred here could be discovered and reported. Maybe Sunday is too early to expect this to be complete but this isn't Watergate here. It just takes someone trying to figure it all out and having the guts to write something that won't be popular with the #metoo movement.

This would be outstanding. I feel like the PD is terrified to run with any kind of story because SLU won't give them answers. Well there are plenty of people who can give you answers just like you said. And clearly, the PD is fine with running stories that aren't true considering they posted Ortiz's debacle of an article. Plus I have a feeling SLU will start to answer questions if there is actually some pressure on them. A hard hitting article from someone like Ben Fred could do just that.

[Cowboy]

24 minutes ago, kshoe said:

I'm hopeful that one of these days (maybe Sunday) we are going to wake up to a front page article written by Ben Fred and/or someone else doing an expose on the SLU Title IX policy and process. It could start with a summary of the sleep-over bag girl article, a description of the composition of the Title IX department (effectively all women), a break-down of the process used on the 4 basketball players (including an appropriate questioning of the relationship of outside firms hired, timelines not followed, etc.), the relationship of the St. Louis prosecutor to the SLU Title IX department, the role a single person, Weathers, has in the final verdict, past racist accusations, etc.

Since SLU won't talk details, the Post could refer back to Goodwin's parents, Rosenbloom, Chris Gardener's tweets, any of the 3 players that are gone, and some unnamed sources within the police department that have seen the report of what occurred. They likely won't get all of them to talk but it only takes a few. With a little bit of digging and actual journalistic work, the puzzle of what actually occurred here could be discovered and reported. Maybe Sunday is too early to expect this to be complete but this isn't Watergate here. It just takes someone trying to figure it all out and having the guts to write something that won't be popular with the #metoo movement.

-you about wrote the article for them, whoever should include you when they win a Pulitzer

[Spoon-Balls]

Bari Weiss is absolutely spot on. A voice of reason in the face of the truly ridiculous feminazi's like Weathers and Kratky. Start listening around 1:05 

 

 

[brianstl]

30 minutes ago, Spoon-Balls said:

Bari Weiss is absolutely spot on. A voice of reason in the face of the truly ridiculous feminazi's like Weathers and Kratky. Start listening around 1:05 

 

 

Good segment.  Thanks for sharing.

[willie]

1 hour ago, kshoe said:

I'm hopeful that one of these days (maybe Sunday) we are going to wake up to a front page article written by Ben Fred and/or someone else doing an expose on the SLU Title IX policy and process. It could start with a summary of the sleep-over bag girl article, a description of the composition of the Title IX department (effectively all women), a break-down of the process used on the 4 basketball players (including an appropriate questioning of the relationship of outside firms hired, timelines not followed, etc.), the relationship of the St. Louis prosecutor to the SLU Title IX department, the role a single person, Weathers, has in the final verdict, past racist accusations, etc.

Since SLU won't talk details, the Post could refer back to Goodwin's parents, Rosenbloom, Chris Gardener's tweets, any of the 3 players that are gone, and some unnamed sources within the police department that have seen the report of what occurred. They likely won't get all of them to talk but it only takes a few. With a little bit of digging and actual journalistic work, the puzzle of what actually occurred here could be discovered and reported. Maybe Sunday is too early to expect this to be complete but this isn't Watergate here. It just takes someone trying to figure it all out and having the guts to write something that won't be popular with the #metoo movement.

I think your right on but  the paper will be the Riverfront Times. 

[HoosierBilliken]

10 hours ago, Tilkowsky said:

Yet you and everyone else on this board are giving the players a pass.

Ha ha.  Ortiz, who goes by the screen name of Tilkowsky, is getting desperate.

If Ortiz's son was accused of sexually assaulting a white woman, he would be okay with him facing a jury of 12 biased white women, who happened to volunteer cause they want to right the wrongs in society.  This is exactly the situation that the four black men faced. 

Ortiz, aka Tilkowsky, would think that this would be fair not having due process, cause he wouldn't want to give his own son a pass.

Ortiz, aka Tilkowsky, is a loser.