Transfers - 2024

[cgeldmacher]

18 minutes ago, billikenfan05 said:

Ok, forget the word plagiarism since you're hung up on it. He had every opportunity to source where he got it, but didn't. He's a thief. He's gone from posting links and long transcriptions of radio interviews to his current approach of taking stuff from MMP, WPB, and SBUnfurled. This is such a niche interest, and he’s professed he’s not really this die hard SLU fan. So I have to wonder what the point of it is for him. He's not here to actually converse about Billiken Basketball, so what does he get about just posting Billiken news? It's clear he is a fan of controlling the message board. Constantly having to start new threads for everything.

Maybe you're right.  I just haven't seen that.  I also thought it was a strange post for Torch to pounce on that particular post since it was clear he was posting something he saw somewhere else.  I'm not message board savvy enough in most situations to figure out how to attached stuff, but if/when I do, I would hate to be called out for plagiarism when that's not what I was doing.

[billikenfan05]

4 minutes ago, cgeldmacher said:

Maybe you're right.  I just haven't seen that.  I also thought it was a strange post for Torch to pounce on that particular post since it was clear he was posting something he saw somewhere else.  I'm not message board savvy enough in most situations to figure out how to attached stuff, but if/when I do, I would hate to be called out for plagiarism when that's not what I was doing.

He pounced on it because it was the second time he used an sbunfurled piece without linking it. It has a distinct look to it and anyone who trolls SLU Twitter knows who made that graphic and had all seen it before. 

[gabriel]

1 hour ago, billikenfan05 said:

Ok, forget the word plagiarism since you're hung up on it. He had every opportunity to source where he got it, but didn't. He's a thief. He's gone from posting links and long transcriptions of radio interviews to his current approach of taking stuff from MMP, WPB, and SBUnfurled. This is such a niche interest, and he’s professed he’s not really this die hard SLU fan. So I have to wonder what the point of it is for him. He's not here to actually converse about Billiken Basketball, so what does he get about just posting Billiken news? It's clear he is a fan of controlling the message board. Constantly having to start new threads for everything.

It's not that serious, great way to derail a good conversation though. 

[CenHudDude]

1 hour ago, Taj79 said:

Maximus Edwards from Geedubya to Duquesne.

I wonder if his twin brother Minimus will follow him to the Dukes?

[slufan13]

Plagiarism is a HUGE problem on this board. 

[billikenfan05]

19 minutes ago, gabriel said:

It's not that serious, great way to derail a good conversation though. 

I mean it’s a pattern of behavior. Capped off by this. You’re right, this instance is not that serious. But also it’s one thing to copy and paste someone’s thoughts, but like a data set graphic that took actual real world effort? 

[The Wiz]

14 minutes ago, CenHudDude said:

I wonder if his twin brother Minimus will follow him to the Dukes?

Small chance of that happening

[Pistol]

47 minutes ago, ACE said:

I'd like to see a comparison of transferring "up & down" in the pre-NIL/free agency era v. today. My sense is that it is benefiting the P6 even more now than it did previously. The gap is growing, IMO.

I'd like better data so you don't have to say "IMO" and we can just base it on the facts.

My issue is that data at a given point in time is not as illustrative as many people think it is because it's what happens in the years after those players transfer that matters.

[billikenfan05]

29 minutes ago, Pistol said:

I'd like better data so you don't have to say "IMO" and we can just base it on the facts.

My issue is that data at a given point in time is not as illustrative as many people think it is because it's what happens in the years after those players transfer that matters.

What if you framed the problem being that "it's almost always P5s who are not giving up minutes to the portal while it's almost always mid major?" Meaning that the roster turnover created by immediate eligibility/NIL/Portal is less impactful to P5s than smaller conferences? 

[NYBilliken]

I liked the graphic, aside from the sourcing debate - thanks to those who created it. It shows the A-10 almost holding its own vs. power conferences. Whereas some other "high mid major" conferences did not. Besides the major vs. mid-major dynamic, the balance will vary by outlook for playing at a specific school in any year. For this year, so far Billikens are +2 in transfers from/to power conferences. Jimerson staying home affected this balance, as he had been likely to transfer to power conference team.

[thetorch]

6 hours ago, cgeldmacher said:

I'm confused.  He didn't say he created the chart.  People post stuff they see out there on this board all the time.  Is it plagiarism every time someone reposts something?

These are the rules of the board for 25+ years.

When we post an article you have to post a link to it or have the author's name in it.

This is no different than that.  Content created by someone else, posted on the board without credit.

This is akin to me copy and pasting some out of town writer's game preview and posting it on the board with no attribution.  Wouldn't you think I wrote it? (Caveat maybe not me but someone on the board who is smart and articulate).

[thetorch]

I think the transfer market boils down simply to this.

P5 schools lose way more players they don't want than players they want.

Non P5 schools lose way more players they want than players they don't want.

I agree overall it is a 1.25-1.5 advantage for the P5 vs a 5X advantage but these schools already have some many built in advantages.  It's one more thing that makes the playing field completely untenable.

[slu72]

11 minutes ago, thetorch said:

I think the transfer market boils down simply to this.

P5 schools lose way more players they don't want than players they want.

Non P5 schools lose way more players they want than players they don't want.

I agree overall it is a 1.25-1.5 advantage for the P5 vs a 5X advantage but these schools already have some many built in advantages.  It's one more thing that makes the playing field completely untenable.

The game is rigged for the P5. Still, the riff raff finds a way occasionally to beat the house. In 23 we had two mids in the final 4. It can happen, and when it does the P5’s hire away the coaches and pay some of their players. So the underlings are basically feeder systems for players and coaches to the biggies. SLU did it this year. 

[Taj79]

@Crewsorlose: I can accept your stance on Holmes.  Again, we shall see.  

The Holmes I watched this year was really no different than last year with the exception of the fact he dribbled more up the court than last (unpressured by any other big man ,.... meh) and he took 83 three pointers well above the 26 total he attempted his first two years. Which equated into only 2.5 threes per fame.  In many instances that I saw, one led to the other ....... he'd rebound, dribble the length of the court to the top of the key, and then launch one because the other big didn't bother to cover him.  He made like 32 which is about one per game.  I think he did both of these (dribble and shoot from distance) to say again to the NBA, 'I can do more.'  I'd like to know how many of his makes came from the top of the key because in the games I watched, once off the top of the key, he wasn't that good.

To me, his interior game was one of bully ball.  He overpowered guys like TJ Hargrove and Tre Williams and Phil Alston when covered by such.  Double teams sent at him by Loyola and VCU seemed to stymie him some.  And once outside the restricted zone, where he needed a move or two going away from the basket, I didn't see much.  But he's great on the lower block spin move and dunk.  

To me, outside the occasional dunk, Toppin is a first round bust.  I also think an All-American should be more than a 10th man on an NBA roster but others have failed to launch as well ..... Adam Morrison, Jimmer Fredette, Greg Oden, Jay Williams, Anthony Bennett and so on.  I actually can't wait to see what does become of Holmes going forward.

[majerus mojo]

9 hours ago, Pistol said:

SBU's retort to my point is that the P5 schools are just taking all the best non-P5 players and dumping the ones who can't cut it. Maybe he's right in that they're upgrading, but I think it's more incremental than he does.

tl;dr - Graphics like this try to tell us that P5 schools are adding 2.0x or more the production that they're losing but it's probably more like 1.2x. I still get why it sucks to be a non-P5 fan on the other end of these transactions.

Regardless of 1.2/2.0, I think this is pretty much an accurate summary of SB’s point at large. We’re lucky Schertz is an awesome person and Avila/Swoope are coming with vs. going P5 for more $. 

[willie]

17 minutes ago, Taj79 said:

@Crewsorlose: I can accept your stance on Holmes.  Again, we shall see.  

The Holmes I watched this year was really no different than last year with the exception of the fact he dribbled more up the court than last (unpressured by any other big man ,.... meh) and he took 83 three pointers well above the 26 total he attempted his first two years. Which equated into only 2.5 threes per fame.  In many instances that I saw, one led to the other ....... he'd rebound, dribble the length of the court to the top of the key, and then launch one because the other big didn't bother to cover him.  He made like 32 which is about one per game.  I think he did both of these (dribble and shoot from distance) to say again to the NBA, 'I can do more.'  I'd like to know how many of his makes came from the top of the key because in the games I watched, once off the top of the key, he wasn't that good.

To me, his interior game was one of bully ball.  He overpowered guys like TJ Hargrove and Tre Williams and Phil Alston when covered by such.  Double teams sent at him by Loyola and VCU seemed to stymie him some.  And once outside the restricted zone, where he needed a move or two going away from the basket, I didn't see much.  But he's great on the lower block spin move and dunk.  

To me, outside the occasional dunk, Toppin is a first round bust.  I also think an All-American should be more than a 10th man on an NBA roster but others have failed to launch as well ..... Adam Morrison, Jimmer Fredette, Greg Oden, Jay Williams, Anthony Bennett and so on.  I actually can't wait to see what does become of Holmes going forward.

Not sure how you can call Toppin a bust. 21 minutes a game. Averages around 11. Shoots 50% . Playoff stats a little better. Star No. Bust NO. 21 minutes is not a tenth man. 

[Compton]

The number of MVC transfers to P5 schools is impressive. Tied with the American for 4th behind the BigTen, BigXII, and ACC.

[WVBilliken]

19 minutes ago, Compton said:

The number of MVC transfers to P5 schools is impressive. Tied with the American for 4th behind the BigTen, BigXII, and ACC.

Not sure what to make of that.  Perhaps the MVC teams can't compete financially to hold onto their players as well as the A10 and other higher ranked mid-major conferences that may have more NIL resources.

[Pistol]

5 hours ago, billikenfan05 said:

What if you framed the problem being that "it's almost always P5s who are not giving up minutes to the portal while it's almost always mid major?" Meaning that the roster turnover created by immediate eligibility/NIL/Portal is less impactful to P5s than smaller conferences? 

Except that the graphic shows that they're also eating each other. I looked at the schools that we landed transfers from - like Creighton and Miami - and they have just as many transfers from other P5 schools as they do from non-power conference schools. They're so desperate to get better quickly that a lot of good players are being recruited over every year. We're in a good spot to grab players out of those situations.

The question of more or less impactful is an interesting one because a lot of P5 programs are losing as many or even more players than non-P5 teams. So using a neutral definition of "impact" you could argue they're just as impacted. They just stand to benefit from having deeper pockets that can create a more positive impact more quickly. But the constant churn will also lead to plenty of expensive disasters. Fit still matters, personalities still matter, roster construction still matters, program building still matters.

[3star_recruit]

11 minutes ago, WVBilliken said:

Not sure what to make of that.  Perhaps the MVC teams can't compete financially to hold onto their players as well as the A10 and other higher ranked mid-major conferences that may have more NIL resources.

I think that's exactly what it is.  There are MVC programs whose total NIL budget is under 100k. They have no hope of keeping a star player who is being offered 200k by a P5.

[Slufan10]

 

[HoosierPal]

2 hours ago, Taj79 said:

 

To me, outside the occasional dunk, Toppin is a first round bust.  I also think an All-American should be more than a 10th man on an NBA roster but others have failed to launch as well ..... Adam Morrison, Jimmer Fredette, Greg Oden, Jay Williams, Anthony Bennett and so on. 

You kind of went off the rails in this Dayton Flyer player discussion, and I had pretty much tuned you out.  But wow, you really haven't watched much Pacer basketball, have you.  Toppin started 28 games for the Pacers this year.  Then they traded for Pascal Siakam, one of the elite power forwards in the league and Toppin went to the second squad. 

Toppin has been valuable on the Pacer's second team, which if you followed the NBA, you would know is one of the top 5 or so in the league-depends on how you want to measure.  (Yes Carlisle brings in 5 guys, so that would be players 6-10.  Call him a #10 if you want.  Or call him #6.)  Toppin averaged 40% from the arc this season.  It is hard to dunk from the arc.

In the NBA playoffs, coaches shorten their bench.  Toppin has been a key member of Carlisle's primary 8 man rotation. He is playing the 4 and 5.  He and second team PG TJ McConnell basically put the Bucks away in Game 6.  Toppin has a $9.2 million qualifying offer on the table for next season.  That's high cotton for a first round bust.

You are kind of being rough on Greg Oden.  If you forgot, he had three injuries to the same knee in his 3 years of activity.  He was only able to play 105 games in his career because of injuries and surgery.  A bust to you, but an unfortunate series of events to me.

[almaman]

22 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

You kind of went off the rails in this Dayton Flyer player discussion, and I had pretty much tuned you out.  But wow, you really haven't watched much Pacer basketball, have you.  Toppin started 28 games for the Pacers this year.  Then they traded for Pascal Siakam, one of the elite power forwards in the league and Toppin went to the second squad. 

Toppin has been valuable on the Pacer's second team, which if you followed the NBA, you would know is one of the top 5 or so in the league-depends on how you want to measure.  (Yes Carlisle brings in 5 guys, so that would be players 6-10.  Call him a #10 if you want.  Or call him #6.)  Toppin averaged 40% from the arc this season.  It is hard to dunk from the arc.

In the NBA playoffs, coaches shorten their bench.  Toppin has been a key member of Carlisle's primary 8 man rotation. He is playing the 4 and 5.  He and second team PG TJ McConnell basically put the Bucks away in Game 6.  Toppin has a $9.2 million qualifying offer on the table for next season.  That's high cotton for a first round bust.

You are kind of being rough on Greg Oden.  If you forgot, he had three injuries to the same knee in his 3 years of activity.  He was only able to play 105 games in his career because of injuries and surgery.  A bust to you, but an unfortunate series of events to me.

last line was me & TF 

[Old guy]

Actually what is happening with the NILs and the transfer portal is that the different schools and conferences are being organized according to the level of money available to them. You may not like the outcome but sure as daylight eventually the top leagues will be at a totally different level that the lesser leagues. They will play for the championship, the lower leagues will have their own competitions.

[slu72]

8 hours ago, Slufan10 said:

 

Announcement wasn’t what I’d call humble.