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Glorydays2013

OT: Ford’s seat getting warm

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JGood is invaluable to this team. 

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Hot take: situation 2 actually helped Jgoods development. He was able to spend almost all his free time on basketball 

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Something interesting I found on Goodwin, his true shooting percentage is 9th on the team at 45.2% which is really poor (he is only above Hankton and Jacobs). That is actually an improvement on last season though, last season his TS% was 44.8% which was 8th on the team and only ahead of Hines. The kid impacts the game so much with his rebounding and defense, but it is interesting to see just how poorly he shoots the basketball. Last season he led the team in player efficiency rating which is down this season from last season (from 18.7 a season ago to 16.1) and behind Bess and Carte'Are. Such an interesting player.

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Thank youuu, Doc. Letting a hot seat thread started by the resident bean bag get to 11 pages is pathetic and shows how dramatic the board can be after a couple losses 

Those Goodwin stats are sick 

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I would like to apologize to Jordan Goodwin, his family and friends, Saint Louis University, The Billiken players, coaches, training staff, fans, and of course my family and friends for any embarrassment I may have caused by stating that I felt Jordan had not played up to expectations this year. Jordan, Billikens.com posters have made me realize my error and how completely and utterly ridiculous those thoughts were. I now understand you have exceeded all expectations this year as it's apparent most Billiken fans expected you to shoot under 38/25/58 and a 1.2/1 assist to t/o rate. Again, I'm so sorry, I hope you will forgive me and please understand I meant no harm. 

For the rest of the board … Is is still ok to critique or criticize other players? 

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7 hours ago, billikenfan05 said:

Hot take: situation 2 actually helped Jgoods development. He was able to spend almost all his free time on basketball 

Disagree.

Goodwin is still doing good things on the floor, and like French it took him a little bit longer to get into the flow this season.

French struggles dealt with fitting in offensively with Gordon.  

Goodwin's struggles have to do with not knowing his role on the team and fitting in with other players.  Goodwin has looked better the more Isabell has stepped back but more importantly when Bess became the go to guy Goodwin has performed much better.

Goodwin keeps playing last season, and playing well, I think he becomes the team leader and feels more comfortable being the man and freeing up his game on both ends.  His absence let Bess take the reigns on the court, even though I truly think goodwin has more talent.  Goodwin stays on the court his confidence stays high, he knows his place, and he spends this season expanding his role instead of trying to grow into a new smaller one.

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1 hour ago, slufanskip said:

I would like to apologize to Jordan Goodwin, his family and friends, Saint Louis University, The Billiken players, coaches, training staff, fans, and of course my family and friends for any embarrassment I may have caused by stating that I felt Jordan had not played up to expectations this year. Jordan, Billikens.com posters have made me realize my error and how completely and utterly ridiculous those thoughts were. I now understand you have exceeded all expectations this year as it's apparent most Billiken fans expected you to shoot under 38/25/58 and a 1.2/1 assist to t/o rate. Again, I'm so sorry, I hope you will forgive me and please understand I meant no harm. 

For the rest of the board … Is is still ok to critique or criticize other players? 

We are men of action. Passive aggressive, sarcastic, whining does not become us...….

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Coaches should definitely be held accountable for their actions -- their wins/losses, their players they assemble, etc.   Players not working out and transferring, while somewhat "normal" does fall on the head coach.  IMO, taking chances on CG was probably worth the risk.  Late scholarships (June) to Thor was probably also worth the risk.  Graduate transfers scholarships (by their nature being only 1 year) are also generally worth the risk - unless they are continually used to deprive youngsters of valuable opportunities to develop.  Santos?  JJ voluntarily left due to perceived lack of playing time.   The initial wave of transfers in Coach Fords first year -- Bartley, Malik, etc. were probably mutual releases (or simply Ford's decision) based upon the new coach -- a coach who did not recruit you and you most likely will run a different offense/defense and value others/others' skills more.  

But Situation 2 seems totally different.  If our guys did anything so wrong,, why were they not prosecuted and/or expelled immediately.   If so, blame Coach Ford for recruited knuckleheads and convicts.  Instead, conventional wisdom was that punishment would be a shorter time frame (5 to 10 games), a semester, 1/3 year, loss of student housing...   not expulsion after waiting nearly the whole season.   The boys were even kicked out of student housing and then allowed to return to student housing.  And in the end, Dr. P and SLU (right or wrong) chose not to follow the recommendations of the outside experts they hired to conduct the investigation - and instead, kicked all three (3) off campus.  Awful.  But the actual time line and facts do matter.  As 3 Star eloquently stated, if you want a ballhandler, recruit a good ball handler and if you want a shooter, recruit a good shooter - don't try to convert guys into becoming a ballhandler or a shooter.  IMO, Coach Ford did exactly that.  He kept the transition PG (Bishop -- not my all time favorite, and not trying to pretend he would have been the next Mitchell or McCall) and brought in another one (Graves).  Both would be quite helpful running the offense right now.  And for those who still think Coach Ford (a pretty good PG himself in his day) is too stupid to know how to run an offense, let me say that our offense would run more smoothly with not only Goodwin but also Bishop and Grave.   And as to an outside shoot to keep the defenses honest, here's an excerpt or update on Adonis Henriquez (note:  his league is not Icelandic league but...):
:

Most recently, the 23-year-old started five games for Gregorio Urbano Gilbert of the Santiago League of the Dominican Republic. In those games, he averaged 20.8 points per game, 4.6 rebounds per game, 2.8 assists per game and 1.2 steals per game. Henriquez also shot 46 percent from the field and 42 percent from deep.

Previously, of course, we all know that:

In his freshman campaign, the 6-foot-6 guard earned 2014-15 All-American Athletic Conference Rookie Team honors. That season, he shot 42.8 percent from the field and 39.4 percent from 3-point range.His accuracy dropped in his sophomore year, as he shot 39.3 percent from the field and 35.8 percent from 3, not earning any conference awards. However, Henriquez led UCF in 3-point field goals made on the same team as the Knights’ all-time leader in 3s: guard Matt Williams.

Anyway, bringing in good, skilled players is tough.   Most freshmen take a year or 2 to acclimate.  Most transfers take awhile to acclimate as well.  Not only did we unexpectedly lose three (3) quality, veteran guys as a result of Situation 2, but we also waited a year for Adonis to gain NCAA eligibility after transferring to SLU, could not use any of the three (3) last year, we lost Goodwin for the last portion of the season but we lost all three (3) permanently for this year and Coach Ford could not replace any of the three (3) with more reliable recruits signed early in the Fall as opposed to late in the Spring/Summer.  Had Coach Ford known that all three (3) would be expelled, does anyone not think that Coach would have recruited a highschool PG (a guy like Yuri) or a highschool school shooter (a guy like Jimmerson) to play and help us this year?  Everyone should remember the real time lines involved.  

 

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16 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

Coaches should definitely be held accountable for their actions -- their wins/losses, their players they assemble, etc.   Players not working out and transferring, while somewhat "normal" does fall on the head coach.  IMO, taking chances on CG was probably worth the risk.  Late scholarships (June) to Thor was probably also worth the risk.  Graduate transfers scholarships (by their nature being only 1 year) are also generally worth the risk - unless they are continually used to deprive youngsters of valuable opportunities to develop.  Santos?  JJ voluntarily left due to perceived lack of playing time.   The initial wave of transfers in Coach Fords first year -- Bartley, Malik, etc. were probably mutual releases (or simply Ford's decision) based upon the new coach -- a coach who did not recruit you and you most likely will run a different offense/defense and value others/others' skills more.  

But Situation 2 seems totally different.  If our guys did anything so wrong,, why were they not prosecuted and/or expelled immediately.   If so, blame Coach Ford for recruited knuckleheads and convicts.  Instead, conventional wisdom was that punishment would be a shorter time frame (5 to 10 games), a semester, 1/3 year, loss of student housing...   not expulsion after waiting nearly the whole season.   The boys were even kicked out of student housing and then allowed to return to student housing.  And in the end, Dr. P and SLU (right or wrong) chose not to follow the recommendations of the outside experts they hired to conduct the investigation - and instead, kicked all three (3) off campus.  Awful.  But the actual time line and facts do matter.  As 3 Star eloquently stated, if you want a ballhandler, recruit a good ball handler and if you want a shooter, recruit a good shooter - don't try to convert guys into becoming a ballhandler or a shooter.  IMO, Coach Ford did exactly that.  He kept the transition PG (Bishop -- not my all time favorite, and not trying to pretend he would have been the next Mitchell or McCall) and brought in another one (Graves).  Both would be quite helpful running the offense right now.  And for those who still think Coach Ford (a pretty good PG himself in his day) is too stupid to know how to run an offense, let me say that our offense would run more smoothly with not only Goodwin but also Bishop and Grave.   And as to an outside shoot to keep the defenses honest, here's an excerpt or update on Adonis Henriquez (note:  his league is not Icelandic league but...):
:

Most recently, the 23-year-old started five games for Gregorio Urbano Gilbert of the Santiago League of the Dominican Republic. In those games, he averaged 20.8 points per game, 4.6 rebounds per game, 2.8 assists per game and 1.2 steals per game. Henriquez also shot 46 percent from the field and 42 percent from deep.

Previously, of course, we all know that:

In his freshman campaign, the 6-foot-6 guard earned 2014-15 All-American Athletic Conference Rookie Team honors. That season, he shot 42.8 percent from the field and 39.4 percent from 3-point range.His accuracy dropped in his sophomore year, as he shot 39.3 percent from the field and 35.8 percent from 3, not earning any conference awards. However, Henriquez led UCF in 3-point field goals made on the same team as the Knights’ all-time leader in 3s: guard Matt Williams.

Anyway, bringing in good, skilled players is tough.   Most freshmen take a year or 2 to acclimate.  Most transfers take awhile to acclimate as well.  Not only did we unexpectedly lose three (3) quality, veteran guys as a result of Situation 2, but we also waited a year for Adonis to gain NCAA eligibility after transferring to SLU, could not use any of the three (3) last year, we lost Goodwin for the last portion of the season but we lost all three (3) permanently for this year and Coach Ford could not replace any of the three (3) with more reliable recruits signed early in the Fall as opposed to late in the Spring/Summer.  Had Coach Ford known that all three (3) would be expelled, does anyone not think that Coach would have recruited a highschool PG (a guy like Yuri) or a highschool school shooter (a guy like Jimmerson) to play and help us this year?  Everyone should remember the real time lines involved.  

 

excellent post and generally agree with you.

but there is some new news in your post and it may further mitigate Ford's situation.  "And in the end, Dr. P and SLU (right or wrong) chose not to follow the recommendations of the outside experts they hired to conduct the investigation - and instead, kicked all three (3) off campus." to my knowledge, this has never been reported before. we only know that Goodwin's original punishment was appealed and ultimately shortened.

so, a couple questions:

- what were the recommendations of the outside law firm brought in to handle investigation component for each of the four involved?

- why do you think they decided for harsher penalties?

- any other complaints with the way it was handled?

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I think we can all agree Ford is a good guy and brings a lot of energy and integrity to the way he goes about things. I also think we can all agree he has done a wonderful job recruiting. Where I think we can also agree is that many things have happened out of his control. I think the amount of players we have lost however is alarming given the 3-year time window since he got here. Obviously, I think he should have at least another year or two, but if the roster turnover continues as it has I think he will have trouble getting the results. Time will tell as it always does. At the end of the day as a college bball coach you are only judged by the W's and L's.

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10 hours ago, BillsBeliever said:

I think we can all agree Ford is a good guy and brings a lot of energy and integrity to the way he goes about things. I also think we can all agree he has done a wonderful job recruiting. Where I think we can also agree is that many things have happened out of his control. I think the amount of players we have lost however is alarming given the 3-year time window since he got here. Obviously, I think he should have at least another year or two, but if the roster turnover continues as it has I think he will have trouble getting the results. Time will tell as it always does. At the end of the day as a college bball coach you are only judged by the W's and L's.

"Give him another year or two"?  No disrespect, but there shouldn't be any talk of how long we give him at this moment.  Yeah, losing players at the rate we have the past few years is concerning.  But look where we were before him.  If you get rid of Travis, who are you honestly getting?  Not someone better.  It's only been three years.  There can't be a short leash.  Unless you want a Crews/Soderberg level coach.  Not to mention if you fire Travis, you'll likely lose his great incoming recruiting class.

As fans, obviously we want a 'win now' team.  But we can be so short-sided at times.  Barring a controversy surrounding Ford; or a Situation4, he's staying as long as he wants.  Be happy about that.

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5 minutes ago, philliken said:

"Give him another year or two"?  No disrespect, but there shouldn't be any talk of how long we give him at this moment.  Yeah, losing players at the rate we have the past few years is concerning.  But look where we were before him.  If you get rid of Travis, who are you honestly getting?  Not someone better.  It's only been three years.  There can't be a short leash.  Unless you want a Crews/Soderberg level coach.  Not to mention if you fire Travis, you'll likely lose his great incoming recruiting class.

As fans, obviously we want a 'win now' team.  But we can be so short-sided at times.  Barring a controversy surrounding Ford; or a Situation4, he's staying as long as he wants.  Be happy about that.

Nobody, except maybe one person is saying get rid of Travis now. Saying he has one or two more years to turn it around isn't giving him a short leash.  Ford will start next season with a roster built with three straight recruiting classes ranked either first or second in the conference.  It will be time to start seeing some better results from the team.  At a minimum we need to finish in the top 100 of Pomeroy's rankings next season.

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11 hours ago, BillsBeliever said:

 I think the amount of players we have lost however is alarming given the 3-year time window since he got here. 

What?   We haven't lost an alarming amount of players.   The original exodus consisted of under performing Crews recruits who knew their playing time was done with Coach Ford at the helm. That's normal for a new head coach.  Santos apparently had his own off-court personal issues (sounds like Situation 3) but this time, Coach Ford/SLU took care of the problem immediately.  Next, CG's departure was perplexing - both the timing of it and based upon his playing time/results.   Apparently, he was cancer in the locker room and had no real interest in academics - goodbye!!   Next, was a late minute (June) recruit from Iceland from a guy who was both injured and ill -- and now is not attending any US college.  Then, again, Thor never played and would not have played much this year anyway - and likely had been/will be over recruited for next year.

Based on your 42 prior posts, you are probably not aware of the disaster which SLU"s Title IX people placed upon Coach Ford and the basketball program. Losing 3 key guards (especially point guards and perimeter shooting guards) is really hurting this team - along with a career ending/persistent injury to Welmer along with unfortunate injuries to Hankton, Jacobs, Wiley.  Even Bess and French have been slowed down this year.

And as to W's and L's, I have been following the Bills since the late 1970's and I'll take this year's and next year's W's and L's over many of the years in between.

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2 minutes ago, brianstl said:

. Saying he has one or two more years to turn it around isn't giving him a short leash. 

Of course it is.  You know better.  You're just frustrated.  Five (5) year contracts are the norm.  Kids commit to play for the coach (not necessarily the program) and their stay at the program they choose is for 4 years.   And most kids want to be coached by the same guy for their 4 years.  What great, impact kid wants to commit to SLU if Coach Ford may only be here 1 or 2 years.  Get serious.  Just having this title of the thread indicates that the SLU basketball community may think Coach Ford may actually be on the hot seat and does not help recruiting.

If get better in 1 year - 2 at the latest - is not a short leash, what then is a short leash? Get serious.

The amount of success that SLU has had since 1948 has been minimal, we get 2 of the best coaches in college basketball b/c we now finally a big donor willing to pay for new facilities and cover the necessary paychecks to pay a good head coach and we saddle these guys (RM and Ford) with two (2) nation-wide embarrassing sagas called S1 and S2 and also place unrealistic expectations and short leashes on our coaches while nipping at their heals.  Look around at the competition and you will find actual crimes -- guys prosecuted and convicted.  You will find NCAA violations, cheating, paid players, academic fraud -- North Carolina and Mizzou.  Does anyone think that that actual Top 50 programs/Power 5 schools act the way SLU has - twice with Title IX?  I sure thought SLU was committed to being a Top 50 program and that Billiken fans were better than this.

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1 hour ago, Clock_Tower said:

What?   We haven't lost an alarming amount of players.   The original exodus consisted of under performing Crews recruits who knew their playing time was done with Coach Ford at the helm. That's normal for a new head coach.  Santos apparently had his own off-court personal issues (sounds like Situation 3) but this time, Coach Ford/SLU took care of the problem immediately.  Next, CG's departure was perplexing - both the timing of it and based upon his playing time/results.   Apparently, he was cancer in the locker room and had no real interest in academics - goodbye!!   Next, was a late minute (June) recruit from Iceland from a guy who was both injured and ill -- and now is not attending any US college.  Then, again, Thor never played and would not have played much this year anyway - and likely had been/will be over recruited for next year.

Based on your 42 prior posts, you are probably not aware of the disaster which SLU"s Title IX people placed upon Coach Ford and the basketball program. Losing 3 key guards (especially point guards and perimeter shooting guards) is really hurting this team - along with a career ending/persistent injury to Welmer along with unfortunate injuries to Hankton, Jacobs, Wiley.  Even Bess and French have been slowed down this year.

And as to W's and L's, I have been following the Bills since the late 1970's and I'll take this year's and next year's W's and L's over many of the years in between.

Very well, sir, I have heard your statements and would say I agree with much of it. This is why I said that many things have happened outside of his control. Thus why you give him more time. This is why I said time will tell. I am aware of the situation and have been following Billikens basketball for years. I just don't post often. I prefer to read.

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1 hour ago, Clock_Tower said:

Of course it is.  You know better.  You're just frustrated.  Five (5) year contracts are the norm.  Kids commit to play for the coach (not necessarily the program) and their stay at the program they choose is for 4 years.   And most kids want to be coached by the same guy for their 4 years.  What great, impact kid wants to commit to SLU if Coach Ford may only be here 1 or 2 years.  Get serious.  Just having this title of the thread indicates that the SLU basketball community may think Coach Ford may actually be on the hot seat and does not help recruiting.

If get better in 1 year - 2 at the latest - is not a short leash, what then is a short leash? Get serious.

The amount of success that SLU has had since 1948 has been minimal, we get 2 of the best coaches in college basketball b/c we now finally a big donor willing to pay for new facilities and cover the necessary paychecks to pay a good head coach and we saddle these guys (RM and Ford) with two (2) nation-wide embarrassing sagas called S1 and S2 and also place unrealistic expectations and short leashes on our coaches while nipping at their heals.  Look around at the competition and you will find actual crimes -- guys prosecuted and convicted.  You will find NCAA violations, cheating, paid players, academic fraud -- North Carolina and Mizzou.  Does anyone think that that actual Top 50 programs/Power 5 schools act the way SLU has - twice with Title IX?  I sure thought SLU was committed to being a Top 50 program and that Billiken fans were better than this.

Apparently there are two posters that go by similar handles
@BillsBeliever!!! and @BillsBeliever 

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If Bess gets healthy and gets drafted, that would do wonders for Ford's recruiting. Unfortunately it doesn't look like anyone else will at this point, unless Goodwin increases his fg% drastically.

Ford's biggest accomplishment at OKstate was Marcus Smart. He did make it to the tourney from the Big12 so he can make teams that can compete, he also has the highest level of basketball coaching on his resume in the entire A10 

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Then, again, Thor never played and would not have played much this year anyway - and likely had been/will be over recruited for next year.>>

Don't discount his missed 40 footer which had to of caused a bit of his lack of minutes!

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1 hour ago, Clock_Tower said:

Of course it is.  You know better.  You're just frustrated.  Five (5) year contracts are the norm.  Kids commit to play for the coach (not necessarily the program) and their stay at the program they choose is for 4 years.   And most kids want to be coached by the same guy for their 4 years.  What great, impact kid wants to commit to SLU if Coach Ford may only be here 1 or 2 years.  Get serious.  Just having this title of the thread indicates that the SLU basketball community may think Coach Ford may actually be on the hot seat and does not help recruiting.

If get better in 1 year - 2 at the latest - is not a short leash, what then is a short leash? Get serious.

The amount of success that SLU has had since 1948 has been minimal, we get 2 of the best coaches in college basketball b/c we now finally a big donor willing to pay for new facilities and cover the necessary paychecks to pay a good head coach and we saddle these guys (RM and Ford) with two (2) nation-wide embarrassing sagas called S1 and S2 and also place unrealistic expectations and short leashes on our coaches while nipping at their heals.  Look around at the competition and you will find actual crimes -- guys prosecuted and convicted.  You will find NCAA violations, cheating, paid players, academic fraud -- North Carolina and Mizzou.  Does anyone think that that actual Top 50 programs/Power 5 schools act the way SLU has - twice with Title IX?  I sure thought SLU was committed to being a Top 50 program and that Billiken fans were better than this.

Um one more year would be four years and two would be five.  I can't understand why people would have an issue with expecting Ford to have a better team after 4 years than the one that got Brad fired.  Hell, I am not even demanding a NIT bid, much less a NCAA bid. Give me a top 100 team similar to what Majerus had in his third season.

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The jumps to conclusions here are amazing.  How long you been around Clock?  I know it's been a while but you can't possibly believe Bess going to the NBA is going to help Ford's recruiting do you?  What did Larry Hughes bring this fine institution when he went to the NBA?  How about Mo Jeffers?  Willie Reed?  Anthony Bonner?  Absolutely nothing!  And then there goes Bess.  If anyone gets Bess to the NBA, it'll be Bess and Bess alone.  A kid in the gym at 0h-dark-thirty each morning tells you right there the desire is internal.  Nothing Ford did for that.  Then Bess tries to lead by example --- anyone else coming in as same time?  I hear Goodwin, maybe Thatch.  So we'll see.  Sorry, good sir, Bess to the NBA means absolutely nothing to Saint Louie Ewey in terms of plussing up recruiting stature. 

Your statement about kids signing with coaches is right on, however what did WE do to Majerus and Ford?  How did WE saddle them with two Title IX problems?  Where did WE place unrealistic expectations on them?  Where do WE nip at their heels.  And are you advocating SLU look a different way or act irresponsibly where Title IX cases are just to be like so-called P5 schools?  I hope not; I always thought you above that handball-with-the-curb kind of style.  I don't understand the statement on being committed to being a Top 50 program and how these previous statements make us better than that.  Better than what?  What are you advocating here?  Not arguing ---- just confused.

Didn't Ford get a five-year contract when he signed here?  Isn't five typical?  I fully understand the growth process --- culling the chaff from the previous regime, laying the groundwork for your particular building, maintaining stability and sustainability going forward.  After demonstrated progress, an extension gets signed.  Has Ford demonstrated progress?  Absolutely.  Has it been the progress we all wanted?  Absolutely not.  Why?  Because of all the things you describe however, I happen to believe that college coaches face undue pressure in the game to win and win NOW.  I think in Year One, Ford evaluated what he had.  For Year Two, he took some calculated risks ..... they worked with Bess and Foreman ... they did not with Henriquez and Graves.  That failure also robbed us of a possible other player in Bishop.  On to Year Three.  More calculated risks ... Santos, Gordon, and Thor.  All failures.  Plus less-than-stellar results from GT mercenaries Isabell and WIley.  In a typical five-year plan, Years Four and Five are supposed to be the salad days.  Laying the red carpet out for the extension signing.  Yet it feels like we are back to square one due to the failure of the calculated risks.  The bad news is Ford doesn't get to go "oops, let's start over."  Now he's got to make it happen with maybe a slightly different glide path with a shorter time period in which to do it.  WE had nothing to do with that ..... HE did. 

Is Ford th ebest thing for SLU?  Yep.  Got no problem there.  But the production window is shrinking.  That's on HE, not WE.

 

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