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Glorydays2013

OT: Ford’s seat getting warm

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Top 1-50 will very likely go to a well known P5 but not as a route to the NBA. Realistically only the top 10-15 will get drafted no matter where they go. Jayson Tatum could have played for St Louis Pharmacy and he'd still have been a lottery pick, because he would have been coming out of Chaminade. They go to P5's because of status with their AAU peers. Just like the Wiz computer genius valedictorian who wants to go to Harvard over anywhere else. I got in! Big deal. He's still going to be a computer Wiz if he goes to Podunk CC and will still end up making trip figures a year in Silicon Valley. 

I do think kids like signing with winners. They get status, TV time, and more of a chance to get noticed. One thing I can't figure out, though, if a top 100 kid goes to Duke or UNC and becomes a 5-10 mpg scrub player, why he doesn't pull up stakes and go to a school where he could be a 30mpg player and likely a star at a place like SLU. I do think a lot of these kids are figuring this out and why we see so many transfers these days. 

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15 hours ago, Taj79 said:

Book me an aisle seat on that spaceship Accord.  NO ... I do not believe Javon Bess making an NBA roster will add ANYTHING to Ford's recruiting.  Just like adding Hughes did nothing for Spoon's recruiting.  Yeah, we all know the references of Goodwin to Smart.  Did Hasahn French come to be the next Marcus Smart?  Did Thor?  Did Gordon?  Did Javon Bess?  Tramiane Isabell?   Goodwin maybe and that was the extent of it.  But Goodwin wasn't a McD's All -American and remains a huge work in progress.  Kids sign with programs that are on TV and that everyone sees as they make their way to millions of dollars.  Kentucky.  Duke.  North Carolina.  Short of that, it's conferences, loving ones with their own networks.  The Big Ten.  The ACC.  The Big East.  The SEC.  Notice no one goes West?  Not in the right time zone.  No one sees you.  Carte'Are Gordon is going to DePaul to get to the next level.  DePaul?  C'mon, man.  The kid from Georgia, the first 5-star recruit to sign with Georgia, went there as a stunner over the usual blue bloods.  Tom Crean or ......... is Tom Crean's association with two similar type players a viable excuse.  Nobody goes to Georgia for basketball.  Nobody since Dominque Wilkins. 

Can you name me any other Ford stud who made the NBA?  I couldn't believe it when I found maybe three, all of which will require research to name.  None were more than a cup o' coffee type.  If Musselman puts kids in the NBA soon, Nevada will be the powerhouse of the west.  Your statement of "all the major recruiting schools have a history of putting kids in the pros" is ludicrous."  It's a generalization at best that is used to support your generalization on Bess being in the NBA and what that means to us. 

We have only seen extended success in this program when the coach had a system, could evaluate talent, and recruited said talent to that system.  Douglass and Gray took us nowhere.  Bonner took us nowhere,  Spoon took us nowhere.  Claggs & Company were a brief illusion as was Rick & Company.  Hughes, arguably the SLU legend, took us nowhere.  And when all were done, we were left crawling back up to the surface again.  I have long harped about sustainability and that is what Ford HAS to do now.  No quick fixes.  No short cuts.  Balance the classes.  Recruit to your system.  Install your system.  Develop kids just under the radar, maybe get a local stud or two.  Rule the A10 and become desirable -- both as a program and as a coach on the uptick.  Some schools with guys in the NBA:  UC Santa Barbara, Wheeling Jesuit, Holy Cross, Bucknell and Davidson.  And Davidson is the giveaway.  I guarantee you, no one is panting to get to Wheeling Jesuit because so-and-so got to the NBA. 

You don't understand my logic because you haven't lived it as I have.  The only times this program was good was when local kids ran the show (Douglass, Gray & Bonner/Claggett, Highmark) and when the maestro squatted on the sidelines.  This is the best I've ever seen SLU recruiting.  Foreman.  Bess.  Henriquez, Goodwin.  French.  Gordon.  Isabell.  Hargrove.  Collins,. Perkins.  Jimerson.  Just what are you aiming to jump start?  The rocketship?

I appreciate your passion as a Billiken fan and in your steadfast belief in your position.  However, just add this to the list of our disagreements.....Davidson, Obi Toppin, and now the influence of an NBA draft pick to a mid-major program.  It seems you have forgotten the class that came in one year after Bonner was drafted in late June 1990. (The 90-91 class was all but sown up by then.) Three locals (okay one left) ended up with a pretty good resume.  You call it 'nothing' but I think 2 NCAA tourney appearances is pretty good.

You can pull the old guy card if you wish. I saw Ricky Frazier in a couple of games, but luckily I didn't have season tickets to what was the absolute worst season in modern Billiken history. So yes, I have lived it as you have.

I'm done.  I don't need to change your opinion and you won't be changing my mind. That fact that we don't agree is pretty much irrelevant. 

And for what it's worth, I don't think Bess will be drafted by an NBA team....just my guess and I hope I am wrong.  I do believe he will get an invite to several team tryouts and that he will end up, eventually, in the League after some seasoning in the G League. 

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One of Calipari's main selling points in landing all his Mickey D all stars is his system is geared to get players NBA ready. He pitches this to his recruits. He doesn't care if they're one and done, because he just reloads year after year after year. In addition, UK is a player's dream stop on his way to the show. Sold out Rupp, TV time, stone cold lock for the dance every year, etc.

Coach K saw what was going on and has pretty much adopted Calipari's strategy. Voila, he starts loading up his classes with one and doners. Recall, his recruitment of Tatum in that SI article back when we were supposedly in the hunt. Coach K pitched to Tatum that by going to Duke he would be better prepared for the NBA than anywhere else, because Coach K had coached the pro's for Team USA.

I'll agree w/ Taj Mahal 79 in that the few players SLU has placed in the NBA has not been a factor in our recruiting top players. But we don't need the top 50 types anyway to win in the A10 and go on to regular appearances in the dance. We need guys that stick around like Rick's kids did. Many schools have shown that Calipari and Coach K's tactics don't guarantee a National Championship every year, and that's what those programs shoot for every year. Good solid teams that have kept classes together for 2-4 years can compete and beat the wunderkinds of Duke and UK.

I don't think any kid Rick brought in was a 4 star or above. Although, Kwamain and Willie might have been, but the supporting cast were 2-3 star types. They bought into his systems and basically went on auto pilot after his passing. That's great coaching to my way of thinking.

Travis went for the fences and landed some very good players, especially in French and Goodwin, he figured he could turn our mess around in 2 years and shock the College hoops world. He got done in by a bad deal w/ sit2, and some very bad luck this year. So, for him it's back to the drawing board. It will be very interesting to see how he tries to re stock his cupboard this spring. My suggestion would be add 2-3 more FR, a GT or JUCO big, and maybe a transfer for 20-20. I wouldn't worry too much about class distribution at this point. Some of those FR will likely opt out if they aren't good enough to get on the floor. Or, if they beat out Hankton and Jacobs for minutes, they will likely head for the exits. I certainly hope he doesn't load up on GTs this spring.  

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31 minutes ago, slu72 said:

One of Calipari's main selling points in landing all his Mickey D all stars is his system is geared to get players NBA ready. He pitches this to his recruits. He doesn't care if they're one and done, because he just reloads year after year after year. In addition, UK is a player's dream stop on his way to the show. Sold out Rupp, TV time, stone cold lock for the dance every year, etc.

Coach K saw what was going on and has pretty much adopted Calipari's strategy. Voila, he starts loading up his classes with one and doners. Recall, his recruitment of Tatum in that SI article back when we were supposedly in the hunt. Coach K pitched to Tatum that by going to Duke he would be better prepared for the NBA than anywhere else, because Coach K had coached the pro's for Team USA.

I'll agree w/ Taj Mahal 79 in that the few players SLU has placed in the NBA has not been a factor in our recruiting top players. But we don't need the top 50 types anyway to win in the A10 and go on to regular appearances in the dance. We need guys that stick around like Rick's kids did. Many schools have shown that Calipari and Coach K's tactics don't guarantee a National Championship every year, and that's what those programs shoot for every year. Good solid teams that have kept classes together for 2-4 years can compete and beat the wunderkinds of Duke and UK.

I don't think any kid Rick brought in was a 4 star or above. Although, Kwamain and Willie might have been, but the supporting cast were 2-3 star types. They bought into his systems and basically went on auto pilot after his passing. That's great coaching to my way of thinking.

Travis went for the fences and landed some very good players, especially in French and Goodwin, he figured he could turn our mess around in 2 years and shock the College hoops world. He got done in by a bad deal w/ sit2, and some very bad luck this year. So, for him it's back to the drawing board. It will be very interesting to see how he tries to re stock his cupboard this spring. My suggestion would be add 2-3 more FR, a GT or JUCO big, and maybe a transfer for 20-20. I wouldn't worry too much about class distribution at this point. Some of those FR will likely opt out if they aren't good enough to get on the floor. Or, if they beat out Hankton and Jacobs for minutes, they will likely head for the exits. I certainly hope he doesn't load up on GTs this spring.  

Coach and Chris May have to reach an understanding that a contract extension next year is based on finishing in the top half of the A10, not challenging for the conference.  I think we can do better than that but like you said, it's back to the drawing board.  It's not fair to expect more when nearly half the rotation will be freshmen.

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Hoosier --- I can agree to disagree.  So 'peace' on that platform. 

However, what you are saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that Anthony Bonner's being drafted somehow led to Julian Winfield, Erwin Claggett, Scott Highmark and Eric Bickel all coming to SLU?  Maybe the 6'9" pogo stick Bickel might have saw himself blossoming ala Bonner, but where are the facts that allow you to draw this conclusion?  I thought those four had some sort of local affiliation at the time -- like playing AAU together.  They banded together and all committed ala Hughes, Tatum, Baniak and Redden with tag-along Chris Heinrich in 1996-97.  Seems to me both those classes were 'stay at home' groups, ala Douglas/Gray and recently Goodwin/Gordon/Collins/Hargrove.  Two left -- Winfield and Bickel -- but those two NCAA appearances rest on one letter ---------- H.  Without Waldman being a true pass-first PG, those gunners are not put in a position to be successful. 

I wasn't citing Ricky Frazier based on his team record.  It was putrid.  That hell I lived through.  I am talking talent.  Name me another kid that left SLU and went on to bigger things than Frazier.  Starting forward on the #1 team in the nation.  First round NBA draft pick. 

As to accords2004:  great rebuttal.  So you're saying recruiting is not the same now as it was because you said so.  My 86-year-old mother still says "because I said so" and I don't listen to her either.  So take no offense.  But what facts support your argument?  I'm willing to listen.  How is recruiting so different and what recruiting guru has educated you?  My support is history ---- every year Kentucky and Duke get the top recruiting classes for a reason.  Each kid uses the school and Calipari or Coach K to get them what they want -- NBA millions.  But that's okay, each school and coach uses the kids to get what they want --- national recognition, title, whatever.  Wilt Chamberlain went to Kansas from Philadelphia.  Kansas was a blue blood way back then.  One kid comes along and says 'hey, he coached Wade and Oladipo so I'm going there.  Why wasn't Crean cornering the market on all possible 6'5" shooting guard five-star recruits?  Why did Eric Paschall sign with Fordham?  Kid has won two out of the last three national titles.  Recruiting is the same flesh trading market it always was --- just now it's more in the open and seen by many more folks than before.  Got to fill up ESPN fifteen channels with some sort of air content.  Every high school kid is the next Michael Jordan.  Why aren't they all lined up at Chapel Hill?  I believe most kids go to play for the coach --- minus the 50 or so 72 talks about above.  Plain and simple -- relationships build trust.  Trust gets you in the door.  Bonding gives you a chance.  Winning seals the deal.

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10 hours ago, Clocktoweraccords2004 said:

Taj I feel for you. Recruiting now was not like it was 10 years ago or 30 

How do you know?  Enlighten us if you will.

Taj is correct.  Prior NBA players doesn't hurt but is not  the major factor - even if a comment is made to that extent.  Sure, prior experience/success helps and is a factor but oipportunity, relationships and winning is what its all about.  And in that respect, recruiting is the same today as it has always been and always will be.  It's just the methods and manner is completely different.

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First off, it’s not teams prior NBA players, it’s coaches’s prior experience putting kids in the NBA. 

Also it is different recruiting today than it was 30 years ago. This is the social media age and coaches and teams had to adapt to it. 

Clocktower, Taj and I are arguing that coaches who put players in the NBA helps recruiting. Taj says it doesn’t mean a damn thing and I say it definitely does help the sales pitch. 

Do you really think recruiting in the Bob Knight era would be the same with cell phones and twitter? 

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1 hour ago, Clock_Tower said:

How do you know?  Enlighten us if you will.

Taj is correct.  Prior NBA players doesn't hurt but is not  the major factor - even if a comment is made to that extent.  Sure, prior experience/success helps and is a factor but oipportunity, relationships and winning is what its all about.  And in that respect, recruiting is the same today as it has always been and always will be.  It's just the methods and manner is completely different.

A lot has changed recruiting over the last 15 years or so. And a whole bunch from 50 years ago. With the exception of UCLA in the mid 60s most local players stayed close to home to play college ball. National TV was providing only minimal coverage of non local teams, but local stations were covering just about every game for their local schools. That obviously helped local schools keep local stars at home. As TV coverage grew kids got exposure to other schools,  and it broke down their allegiance or fandom  to  local colleges. 

Social media and the growth of AAU ball has been a huge game changer. Now a kid in GA can be best friends with a kid from MN. They follow each other's  every move in terms of recruiting and progress. Also, the internet sports news focuses primarily on the biggies. This makes it more difficult for local schools to keep locals at home unless they are truly a winning national program.

Yes, establishing a bond with the coaches is still a big factor, but may not be as important to a recruit as his social media profile. Take Tatum for example. It didn't matter whether he stayed at home or went to Duke. He was still going to be a lottery pick. But his status with his AAU buddies would have dropped a notch or two if he chose SLU over Duke. This type of thinking probably also cost us Pearson. It will likely cost us a lot of the top local  kids in the 2020 class. 

I like what Ford's doing given the bad breaks he's been dealt, but he's got a tough job when it comes to recruiting to a consistently mediocre program. 

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1 hour ago, slu72 said:

A lot has changed recruiting over the last 15 years or so. And a whole bunch from 50 years ago. With the exception of UCLA in the mid 60s most local players stayed close to home to play college ball. National TV was providing only minimal coverage of non local teams, but local stations were covering just about every game for their local schools. That obviously helped local schools keep local stars at home. As TV coverage grew kids got exposure to other schools,  and it broke down their allegiance or fandom  to  local colleges. 

Social media and the growth of AAU ball has been a huge game changer. Now a kid in GA can be best friends with a kid from MN. They follow each other's  every move in terms of recruiting and progress. Also, the internet sports news focuses primarily on the biggies. This makes it more difficult for local schools to keep locals at home unless they are truly a winning national program.

Yes, establishing a bond with the coaches is still a big factor, but may not be as important to a recruit as his social media profile. Take Tatum for example. It didn't matter whether he stayed at home or went to Duke. He was still going to be a lottery pick. But his status with his AAU buddies would have dropped a notch or two if he chose SLU over Duke. This type of thinking probably also cost us Pearson. It will likely cost us a lot of the top local  kids in the 2020 class. 

I like what Ford's doing given the bad breaks he's been dealt, but he's got a tough job when it comes to recruiting to a consistently mediocre program. 

Of course.   As I said, the methods and manner is different today -- instagram, snapchat, texts, Facebook, etc. were not present even a few years ago.  And yes, AAU ball and the modern game involves much more travel and getting to know kids from around the country.  With that said, 30 years ago was 1989.   Your examples of the UCLA from the 1960's is nearly double that -- 60 years -- which again were different b/c of the lack of movement in not only basketball but society as a whole.  Traveling the country for amateur athletics just did not happen back in the 1960's but did take place in 1989. Traveling the country in 1960's for other reasons also was much more scarce than 1989.  Didn't Danny Ferry and his DeMatha guys play in the 7UP Shoothout in St. Louis around 1985 before graduating from Duke in 1989.

But again, Taj is saying, and I agree with Taj, that 17 year old kids are not choosing schools based upon a coach's prior experience in getting kids into the NBA.   It's all about winning at the college level -- and trusting, believing in your Coach - even one who does't have major coaching experience.   Most 17 year old kids don't know, remember or care about prior guys who played college/NBA.  And most 17 year kids are not going to choose a school based upon what the future holds for Javon Bess any more than they did for Larry Hughes -- which is basically nothing.

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when you are talking about 3-4 kids making the nba in 30 years, yes, it probably doesnt matter, when in duke and kentucky's case you might be talking about 3-4 kids EVERY YEAR making the nba, that matters.  

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This is a typical Billikens.com argument where both sides over-exaggerate what the other side is saying.  There's no chance that Bess going to the NBA won't have a positive effect on recruiting.  However, it won't be all that much of an effect.  If we're in a recruiting battle with other A-10 teams, and Ford can tell a kid that we've recently sent a player to the NBA, and that he saw what Bess did and went through to get there, and that he sees a little bit of Bess in that kid and can imagine the same thing happening to him if he works as hard as Bess, sure, that might make a difference to that kid.  You guys have to recognize that.  However, like I said, to many other kids, it won't make any difference at all.

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50 minutes ago, cgeldmacher said:

This is a typical Billikens.com argument where both sides over-exaggerate what the other side is saying.  There's no chance that Bess going to the NBA won't have a positive effect on recruiting.  However, it won't be all that much of an effect.  If we're in a recruiting battle with other A-10 teams, and Ford can tell a kid that we've recently sent a player to the NBA, and that he saw what Bess did and went through to get there, and that he sees a little bit of Bess in that kid and can imagine the same thing happening to him if he works as hard as Bess, sure, that might make a difference to that kid.  You guys have to recognize that.  However, like I said, to many other kids, it won't make any difference at all.

-yep, and further, every kid is different and decides where to go by looking through a different prism

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I will endorse Mr. cgeldmacher's position and leave it at that.  I do not believe I won the 'over-exaggeration' argument at all.  Signing off on this matter.

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1 hour ago, Taj79 said:

I will endorse Mr. cgeldmacher's position and leave it at that.  I do not believe I won the 'over-exaggeration' argument at all.  Signing off on this matter.

Then how come you posted about this topic on the Coach's radio thread 15 minutes after this post?

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Because I didn't close that thread out as I did this one. 

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All I’m saying is that we aren’t in the recruiting surge we had when Ford got in and I believe that is due to not living up to expectations. If we were top of the A10 and getting votes or even ranked we would have 1-2 2020 recruits by now. I’m not as enthusiastic about the future after CG left and worried he’s been talking to the talent in the Stl area. Fortunately I’ve heard he wasn’t really liked. 

All I meant to say is if Bess got drafted, that would be the silver lining in a disappointing season  

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35 minutes ago, Clocktoweraccords2004 said:

All I’m saying is that we aren’t in the recruiting surge we had when Ford got in and I believe that is due to not living up to expectations. If we were top of the A10 and getting votes or even ranked we would have 1-2 2020 recruits by now. I’m not as enthusiastic about the future after CG left and worried he’s been talking to the talent in the Stl area. Fortunately I’ve heard he wasn’t really liked. 

All I meant to say is if Bess got drafted, that would be the silver lining in a disappointing season  

We’re not in the recruiting surge? I would say we have a really really nice class coming in and the excitement has worn off because a. The team is not living up to the hype b. We’re pretty far removed from the last commitment 

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