Very Interesting...

[Bay Area Billiken]

This thread, dated and incorrect in its originating basis, has incredibly reached 11 pages. 
 

I just saw our Billikens play the best game I’ve seen them play in a long time. The players rose to the occasion.  Travis coached a very good game. 
 

It is well past time for this ridiculous thread to be laid to rest. 

[cheeseman]

First thing every poster is thrilled that we had a very good game against Mason. Most would be more than happy not to feel that Ford has not lived up to expectations. Ford game plan and in game coaching decisions yesterday- I was unable to watch but the consensus says so- were very good and so what can be frustrating is if he can do it then why not more consistently.   Coaching turnover is not a goal any program should want but sometimes it has to happen. Most wish nothing but the best Ford here but being blind to the body of work is not helpful either. Ford is at a crossroad - he will need to bring in replacements that propel the program forward and he needs to approach every game like he did Mason win or go home.  If he reloads and ups his coaching then great but if he doesn’t then simply saying consistency over and over again won’t change anything. By the way when RM passed the torch to Crews one could say that was an effort to maintain consistency in the program and how did that work out. Go Bills and bear VCU!

[NoCoBillsFan]

18 hours ago, cgeldmacher said:

Randy Bennett has been at St. Mary's for 22 years.  In his first 8 seasons, St. Mary's only went to the NCAA tournament twice and only won more than 20 games 3 times.  If the fans had run him out of town because they he was not getting to the tournament enough or winning more than 20 games enought in those early years, they would not be enjoying the success they are having now.  In the 13 non-Covid years since those first 8, St. Mary's has been to the NCAA Tournament 7 times (counting this year).  This includes one Sweet 16 run and three consecutive years that they went to the NIT (this board would have run him off then too).

My point is that consistency and patience is what is required to get to the level of some of the teams that you mentioned. Folks who advocate for keeping Ford are not okay with mediocrity.  This is a BS sentiment that is getting old.  We all want SLU to get to the next level and then the level beyond that.  I just think being patient with a coach that has gotten us 4 twenty win seasons in his first 7 years as coach and one tournament appearance (after inheriting a dumpster fire) gives us a better chance to get where we want to be than starting over with an unknown.

I don't have a problem with posters who think it’s time to part ways with Ford.  You are all entitled to your opinion.  I just think it is too risky right now, and that our chances are better with Ford.  Please stop having a problem with myself and other posters whose opinion differs from yours.  Let's just all calm down.

Thank you for adding this perspective. Ford’s results have been disappointing so far but I’m more willing to give him more time after seeing this. I am curious to see what he does with a new core of players that might be a better fit for the kind of systems he likes to run?

[longtimelistenerfirsttimec]

4 minutes ago, Bay Area Billiken said:

This thread, dated and incorrect in its originating basis, has incredibly reached 11 pages. 
 

I just saw our Billikens play the best game I’ve seen them play in a long time. The players rose to the occasion.  Travis coached a very good game. 
 

It is well past time for this ridiculous thread to be laid to rest. 

no let the tenn. oracle continue to dazzle us with his incredible basketball insight and his knowledge of the players hatred of the coach how else would we know this buy just being at games

[billiken_roy]

my biggest takeaway yesterday was that this billiken roster were doing aspects of basketball they havent done prior to yesterday.   Ford was sending in adustments and having success this team has never did before.   the passing wasnt just yuri,   everyone got into it.  all that played seemed to have shining moments.  this was the billikens team we all expected to see this year.   if we had played like this all year, we might not have lost a game.  

it gives me hope.  of course as most billiken teams i have witnessed over the 45+ years i have been following, i am shaking my head telling myself, "and now they will rip my heart out again going back to prior to yesterday."

Please Billikens.   give this old man a great thrill.  replay the guts, determination, enthusiasm and success we saw yesterday again on Saturday.   You have now shown that you can indeed do it and you are definitely talented.  now have the courage to give us that again.   and then keep doing it.   no going backwards.

[juniorbill76]

I was wondering a couple weeks ago if the fact that this is an old team might have been a disadvantage. That is, they didn't empty the tank in games because they knew from experience that the season is long and it all comes down to Brooklyn anyway. I'm not saying I think that was a good way to approach the season, but it give me hope that they're all reaching deep at the same time now.

[cheeseman]

7 minutes ago, juniorbill76 said:

I was wondering a couple weeks ago if the fact that this is an old team might have been a disadvantage. That is, they didn't empty the tank in games because they knew from experience that the season is long and it all comes down to Brooklyn anyway. I'm not saying I think that was a good way to approach the season, but it give me hope that they're all reaching deep at the same time now.

If the team had not done what you are opine then it would not have to come down to Brooklyn. We would have been a top 25 team and won our conference going away. We would have  an at large bid in our pocket and going to NY would have been simply an obligation rather than a necessity. Never good to ever think you can just turn on the switch when ever you want. The road is littered with teams thinking this way.  If the players thought this then the coach is at fault letting it happen. Remember the fish always rots from the head down. 

[Schasz]

55 minutes ago, dennis_w said:

are we talking about your mistaken facts on gonazga history or your dislike of ford? root for whoever you want, your stomach ulcer may get some rest if you quit spewing your hatred of ford

I know the history of Gonzaga very well...I lived it. You and all the Travis Ford lovers can continue to stay in you Fantasy Land that he is a wonderful HC. The Zags in Mark Few have a great HC. Hope they have a nice run in them again this year!!!

[almaman]

5 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

If the team had not done what you are opine then it would not have to come down to Brooklyn. We would have been a top 25 team and won our conference going away. We would have  an at large bid in our pocket and going to NY would have been simply an obligation rather than a necessity. Never good to ever think you can just turn on the switch when ever you want. The road is littered with teams thinking this way.  If the players thought this then the coach is at fault letting it happen. Remember the fish always rots from the head down. 

I think none of your “litter” thought let’s disappoint all regular season. Come April only 1 of the 350+ team’s fan base will not b singing similar tune as we sing around here all season. Grading on a curve as deadly as any outside winner take all lottery

[TheA_Bomb]

Yesterday's game was good it's giving me hope we can win the A10 Tournament. Get to the dance and ya never know what will happen.  I want nothing more than to be wrong and SLU to win in March.

[Cowboy II]

-the thing about the longevity of the coaches mentioned is that they didn't have the head coaching history and limited results of CFord

-if somehow yesterday is the result of some sort of intervention or metamorphisis or something else and is now the norm then sign me up

[WVBilliken]

20 hours ago, cgeldmacher said:

Randy Bennett has been at St. Mary's for 22 years.  In his first 8 seasons, St. Mary's only went to the NCAA tournament twice and only won more than 20 games 3 times.  If the fans had run him out of town because they he was not getting to the tournament enough or winning more than 20 games enought in those early years, they would not be enjoying the success they are having now.  In the 13 non-Covid years since those first 8, St. Mary's has been to the NCAA Tournament 7 times (counting this year).  This includes one Sweet 16 run and three consecutive years that they went to the NIT (this board would have run him off then too).

My point is that consistency and patience is what is required to get to the level of some of the teams that you mentioned. Folks who advocate for keeping Ford are not okay with mediocrity.  This is a BS sentiment that is getting old.  We all want SLU to get to the next level and then the level beyond that.  I just think being patient with a coach that has gotten us 4 twenty win seasons in his first 7 years as coach and one tournament appearance (after inheriting a dumpster fire) gives us a better chance to get where we want to be than starting over with an unknown.

I don't have a problem with posters who think its time to part ways with Ford.  You are all entitled to your opinion.  I just think it is too risky right now, and that our chances are better with Ford.  Please stop having a problem with myself and other posters whose opinion differs from yours.  Let's just all calm down.

Agree 100%.  I see Ford as the guy who can bring long-term success and continuity to this program ..... something the Billiken need but hasn't had for many decades.  Most mid-majors that make the step up have had a stable coaching situation.  Changing coaches every 5 years or so is disruptive and a big mistake IMO.

[Billiken Rich]

This tiny interregnum, when Bills fans believe again and the trolls are seen for what they are, is very pleasant and unexpected.  I thought there would be a quick out followed by a summer of nothing but trolls measuring their manhood by how much they want Ford fired.  I didn't think there could possibly be and ass-kicking hard enough or a victory great enough to quiet the good faith critics and make fools of the trolls.  I'm happy the Billikens won but giddy that they did it so convincingly.  It could all come crashing down tomorrow but I am grateful for today..........

[David King]

On 3/8/2023 at 10:15 AM, billiken_roy said:

this is incorrect.   the want was always the big east, but situations always seemed to get in the way at the wrong time.   now the opportunity isnt there and slu has no leverage.  timing is everything. 

The path to the Big East is clear. All the Bills have to do to upgrade conferences is get to the Final Four. It worked for George Mason, Butler, VCU, Loyola-Chicago,Wichita State, and Houston, among others.

[billiken_roy]

1 hour ago, Schasz said:

I know the history of Gonzaga very well...I lived it. You and all the Travis Ford lovers can continue to stay in you Fantasy Land that he is a wonderful HC. The Zags in Mark Few have a great HC. Hope they have a nice run in them again this year!!!

please provide the links to posts where a mbm here at billikens.com said ford is a wonderful HC.   i dont remember anyone saying that recently.   i recall people saying more or less the time isnt right yet but no one ready to proclaim ford is the COY.

[Billiken Rich]

8 minutes ago, David King said:

The path to the Big East is clear. All the Bills have to do to upgrade conferences is get to the Final Four. It worked for George Mason, Butler, VCU, Loyola-Chicago,Wichita State, and Houston, among others.

Why didn't you say so earlier!  We'll make that happen next year.  It's a cinch!

[Billiken Rich]

6 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

please provide the links to posts where a mbm here at billikens.com said ford is a wonderful HC.   i dont remember anyone saying that recently.   i recall people saying more or less the time isnt right yet but no one ready to proclaim ford is the COY.

For pointing that out we're just going to have to call you "mediocrity Mueller" because you don't hate Ford enough....

[billiken_roy]

on another note, i watched the highlights (or is it low lights) of the illini choke yesterday.   i am convinced we could beat the illini but i am betting they will get an at large berth.   another shining example of the corrupt NET system and the NCAA in general.  

but more importantly it reminded me of the path of former head coach Lou Henson and how much his path to "glory" and respect somewhat mirrored ford.   as an illinois resident i have been around hardcore illini fans all my life.   Until i went to slu in the late 70's i considered myself an illini fan.   and man did all of the illini nation b!tch about henson.    "just a recruiter"   "horrible floor coach"   "cant win the big games"   were all frequently tagged on henson.   

of course he got to the tourney often.   hell he's in the elite big 10 and they are of course in on the fix for the big programs.   but for big ten teams, just getting to the tourney isnt enough.   they want final fours and national championships.   at illinois that didnt happen until that late 80's flying illini team.   and imo that roster completely resembles what it might take for us to cross into the next level.   he got the big transfer from kenny battle from a much lower level school   and battle and lowell hamilton even though both were somewhat small to be playing inside were incredible physical specimens and awesome leapers.   i.e.  they worked their tails off to get all they could out of their talents.   they recruited a number of wings who really developed and then they all caught the "team" bug and played together like no illinois before had ever meshed.  my point is it can happen.   even after years of frustration.   

[Schasz]

37 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

please provide the links to posts where a mbm here at billikens.com said ford is a wonderful HC.   i dont remember anyone saying that recently.   i recall people saying more or less the time isnt right yet but no one ready to proclaim ford is the COY.

Roy...It would take me days to send you all the lover affair post on this website, but your welcome to go back and search for them. Trust me it won't take very long. You just went into a history book on the Illini. I earlier provided one of Gonzaga which I happen to believe is a MUCH better history as Gonzaga is in a league that is NOT Power 5 but in Mark Few they have  HC who I believe has a better than 50-50 chance of being in the HOF by the time his HC career is over. I see all the time the outstanding talent Ford supposedly recruits well if it is he sure as hell does not know how to coach it. Few on the other hand has built the Zags to a place where he not only gets looks from 5 Star players but actually gets them to friggin Spokane, WA. Heck just last year the 7 footer on their roster was rated the No. 1 recruit. Gonzaga one would hope with the super nice Chaifetz should be an example for the SLU hierarchy to want to attain. Won't happen with Travis Ford!!!

[brianstl]

32 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

on another note, i watched the highlights (or is it low lights) of the illini choke yesterday.   i am convinced we could beat the illini but i am betting they will get an at large berth.   another shining example of the corrupt NET system and the NCAA in general.  

but more importantly it reminded me of the path of former head coach Lou Henson and how much his path to "glory" and respect somewhat mirrored ford.   as an illinois resident i have been around hardcore illini fans all my life.   Until i went to slu in the late 70's i considered myself an illini fan.   and man did all of the illini nation b!tch about henson.    "just a recruiter"   "horrible floor coach"   "cant win the big games"   were all frequently tagged on henson.   

of course he got to the tourney often.   hell he's in the elite big 10 and they are of course in on the fix for the big programs.   but for big ten teams, just getting to the tourney isnt enough.   they want final fours and national championships.   at illinois that didnt happen until that late 80's flying illini team.   and imo that roster completely resembles what it might take for us to cross into the next level.   he got the big transfer from kenny battle from a much lower level school   and battle and lowell hamilton even though both were somewhat small to be playing inside were incredible physical specimens and awesome leapers.   i.e.  they worked their tails off to get all they could out of their talents.   they recruited a number of wings who really developed and then they all caught the "team" bug and played together like no illinois before had ever meshed.  my point is it can happen.   even after years of frustration.   

Henson had a Final Four on his resume before he got the Illini job. 

[majerus mojo]

10 minutes ago, Schasz said:

Roy...It would take me days to send you all the lover affair post on this website, but your welcome to go back and search for them. Trust me it won't take very long. You just went into a history book on the Illini. I earlier provided one of Gonzaga which I happen to believe is a MUCH better history as Gonzaga is in a league that is NOT Power 5 but in Mark Few they have  HC who I believe has a better than 50-50 chance of being in the HOF by the time his HC career is over. I see all the time the outstanding talent Ford supposedly recruits well if it is he sure as hell does not know how to coach it. Few on the other hand has built the Zags to a place where he not only gets looks from 5 Star players but actually gets them to friggin Spokane, WA. Heck just last year the 7 footer on their roster was rated the No. 1 recruit. Gonzaga one would hope with the super nice Chaifetz should be an example for the SLU hierarchy to want to attain. Won't happen with Travis Ford!!!

[wgstl]

54 minutes ago, Billiken Rich said:

Why didn't you say so earlier!  We'll make that happen next year.  It's a cinch!

Is it too late for this year?

[billiken_roy]

12 minutes ago, brianstl said:

Henson had a Final Four on his resume before he got the Illini job. 

that was at new mexico.   he went a long long time at champaign before going back.   

[Slu let the dogs out?]

1 hour ago, billiken_roy said:

 but for big ten teams, just getting to the tourney isnt enough.   they want final fours and national championships.  

Very cocky fanbases. Which is why it brings me so much joy knowing that the B10 hasn't won a national championship in 23 years. 7 teams in the tourney last year. 0 teams in the Elite 8.

[courtside]

People have to decide what SLU is and what they want it to be:

Randy Bennett is a great coach that has had a lot of success at a tough place to win at a high level. Comparing St. Mary’s and SLU is apples to oranges. Expectations are more at SLU. So are the resources. 

Randy Bennett was making $233k during those first 8 seasons. And the school’s basketball budget and expectations were not high. He was coaching in a then 25 year old 3500k gym. It’s now a 45 year old 3500k gym.

Much tougher to get NCAA bids in WCC. That isn’t a fair comparison. Here is what stands out: Bennett finished 2nd in just his 3rd season at St. Mary’s. Then he went on to finish 2nd in the league or better 8 out of the next 9 years, winning the league multiple times. That’s year 3 onwards success. The year he didn’t finish top 2, he finished 3rd. That’s what stands out about Bennett. He had sustained success in year 3 onward.

Bennett has had 1 Sweet 16 in 22 seasons, and 9 NCAA Tourneys. That’s great for St. Mary’s and a WCC school. And unlike at a school like SLU, making the NIT annually in between as opposed to being more up and down adds to Bennett’s positive consistency there.

Even now, after all of the years of success, St. Mary’s doesn’t crack the top 100 in hoops budgets. SLU is top 75.  Bennett makes 2.5 times less than SLU’s coach. And that’s after a recent 10 year extension. 

……………. 

SLU also isn’t Colgate. Matt Langel had 6 straight losing seasons as head coach there. He’s now won the Patriot League regular season title every year since, 5 straight times.

……………

A10/Big East Comparisons. In some fairness to SLU, 9 of the 11 Big East teams have a much larger hoops budget than SLU. SLU has the 3rd largest A10 hoops budget behind Dayton and VCU.

These are some Big East Coaches who were fired for not winning enough and their results which led to their dismissals:

Patrick Ewing was given 6 seasons. He made the NCAA’s his 4th year. 

…………..

LaVall Jordan had 5 years at Butler. He made the NCAA’s once. (Butler and DePaul are the two Big East schools with a smaller hoops budget than SLU.)

Oliver Parnell had 5 seasons at DePaul. Jerry Wainwright had 5. Dave Leitao part 2 had 6. Pat Kennedy had 5.

Mike Anderson has had 4 winning record seasons at St. John’s. He’s on the hot seat. Steve Lavin had 4 winning seasons in 5 years at St. John’s. 

……………….

Steve Wojciechowski had 5 out 7 winning seasons at Marquette, 2 NCAA tourneys. 

Mike Deane made the NCAA’s twice in five seasons at Marquette. Also an NIT Finals. 4 winning record seasons, 100 wins.

……………….

Travis Steele had 4 seasons at Xavier. All 4 had winning records. 

……………..

Kevin Willard is an example of a coach who did not make the NCAA’s in his first 5 seasons at Seton Hall. He made it in year 6. He then made it 5 of 6 more times, and he eventually left on his own for Maryland. He never did make the 2nd weekend of NCAA Tourney in 12 seasons at Seton Hall. 

Bobby Gonzalez was given 4 seasons at Seton Hall. 

……………….

Kenon Davis had 3 seasons at Providence. Tim Welsh had 10 (2 NCAA Tourneys).

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Now take a look at some more successful ones, and what happened there:

Mark Few won immediately at Gonzaga with regards to winning the league and making the NCAA Tourney regularly. He stayed.

………………..

Some of the others coached in better leagues than SLU’s league.

Jay Wright got it going in his 4th season at Villanova and he never looked back, winning annually. He stayed.

…………….

Greg McDermott and Shaka Smart had success in smaller leagues, left for Power 5 schools, and landed in the Big East. McDermott struggled a lot at Iowa State. Smart was better at Texas but not good enough. Both bounced to Big East schools and have had sustained success quickly, and built from that. Sean Miller had 5 years at Xavier in the A10. He had 2nd year onward annual success. 30 win Pac 12 title, Elite 8 in year 2 at AZ. NCAA team year 1 at the now Big East version of Xavier. 

……………..

Chris Holtmann left Butler for Ohio State after 3 successful seasons. While somewhat successful at Ohio State, his success has been below their expectations.

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Chris Mack Xavier: 4 years A10, immediate success. 5 years Big East immediate success. He then left for Louisville because his wife is from there. It didn’t work out.

…………….

Ed Cooley 12 seasons at Providence. Sustained succeess began in year 3 onward. 

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Fran Dunphy, 7 years in A10 with Temple before switching leagues. Sustained success in A10 began in year 2. Fran has never made the 2nd weekend of the NCAA Tourney. Now at La Salle.

…………..

Archie Miller 6 years at Dayton before leaving for IU. Sustained annual Dayton success began in year 3. Wasn’t successful at IU. 

……………

Bob Mckillop coached Davidson for 25 years over several leagues before the A-10. He built sustained success in year 5 onward. (As is the case for many smaller leagues, a better gauge of success is winning your regular season league annually rather than infrequent periodic NCAA Tourneys. His 1st NCAA tourney was year 9, and he had just 1 in his first 12 seasons.)

In the A10, he won the league twice, 5 top 3 finishes, 3 NCAA Tourneys in 8 years. 

………….

Mark Schmidt, St. Bonaventure, 16 seasons, 3 NCAA Tourneys. 2 league titles. 3 top 3 league finishes.

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Mike Rhoades, VCU, 6th season. 2 NCAA Tourneys in 5 seasons. 2 league titles in 6th seasons and 2 2nd place finishes.

…………..

Anthony Grant, Dayton, 5 completed seasons. 1 NCAA Tourney. (he would have made it the year it was canceled) 1 league title and 2 2nd places finishes in 6 seasons

…………….

Chris May said just this week that the stated goal for SLU Women’s basketball is to be an NCAA Tourney team and to make some runs in it. He didn’t say the same thing about SLU Men’s basketball.