Former Billikens Updates

[Taj79]

A big man should never lower the ball below his shoulders.  Dribbling allows the lilliputians to get him.

[Coach314]

13 hours ago, Cowboy II said:

-any additional context on this?

If I recall correctly one potential transfer was told Jimmy was only starting because they had no one else.  

[Box and Won]

16 hours ago, brianstl said:

Want to get in a worse mood? Rivera had 12 points and 7 rebounds in Bryant's upset of then #10 and currently #13 FAU.  It has been 11 seasons since we beat a ranked opponent.  We haven't beaten a top 10 team on the road, like Bryant did, since we beat #3 Kentucky on March 2, 1964.

 

You gotta be f-ing kidding me.

This is not quite as bad as the Cardinals with Arozarena, Gallen, Alcantara, Garcia, etc., but it ain't good.

[TheA_Bomb]

On 11/28/2023 at 11:10 AM, Pistol said:

I don't know for sure on Bell but it seems like both sides wanted him to stay at the time and couldn't do it. My guess is academic, given that he went to a juco as a third-year player. Wish he would've (or could've?) come back to SLU after that, though.

According to this Bell was on A10 Honor Roll.

https://hailstate.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/jimmy--bell-jr-/10415

So he got to SLU where we have dedicated exercise staff and diet and he got worse?  That's bad.

[Pistol]

2 hours ago, TheA_Bomb said:

According to this Bell was on A10 Honor Roll.

https://hailstate.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/jimmy--bell-jr-/10415

So he got to SLU where we have dedicated exercise staff and diet and he got worse?  That's bad.

That's not quite right. He wasn't in good shape coming out of HS and he got into solid shape at SLU. Then he went to Moberly and you could see him soften up again. But then at WVU and now Mississippi State, he's in really good shape again. So the D-I strength and conditioning has done wonders for him at three places.

Maybe it wasn't academic. Maybe like Coach314 says, they could've just been looking to upgrade. I just thought it was odd that a third-year player would end up at the juco level so I assumed there was an issue with grades or credits.

Regardless, it's a missed opportunity and I don't necessarily agree with others that he would not have stayed. All indications were that he was pretty happy here before he was shown the door.

[Pistol]

It also highlights a broader issue about bigs in SLU's program lately. We're really impatient but continue to take project freshmen. If you're not going to give them multiple years to develop, why even bother? We haven't gotten an instant impact freshman big since French and I'm not sure that's possible again until SLU catches up with its NIL budget.

At least some of these younger guys would've stayed, knowing that their time would come later while they get up to speed, and we could've had some very solid big men as juniors and seniors. Instead, we cycle through freshmen and transfers and never have them for more than two years. That method is only as good or better than developing longer-term guys if every veteran transfer pans out (including being eligible).

I guess we'll see what happens with the young bigs we have now - whether they stay and develop, go back to Europe/Asia, or transfer to another program and become double-double machines.

[ACE]

Bell and Traore are the two bigs I want to focus on. Ford deserves credit for landing two lightly recruited bigs who had ability. Of the two, Traore I feel is more like the one who got away. 

With Bell, he suffered an ankle injury in October of 2020, he missed a couple of games, also there were reports that he arrived at the start of the season not in the best of shape. All you had to do was watch him play to see that. Bell missed a couple of games that season, only started 5, and was clearly outplayed by Linnsen. With Okoro coming in, and Linnsen still on the roster, there was not much of a path of playing time for Jimmy the following season (Okoro was going to be a junior, just like Bell). Also, reportedly there may have been academic issues. Bell transferred in July of 2021 - that is very late, so something strange must have been happening. Plus, how does a player who spent two years at a four-year college, then wind up at a JUCO (a two-year college) in year 3? I'm genuinely curious if that is a thing. IF things were going well for Bell at the time, he would have surely gone transferred to a 4-year college. 

Kudos to Bell for using that JUCO year wisely and getting his act together. I don't blame Ford for that one, and neither did most folks on the board at the time. Of course, a healthy and focused Bell is going to be better 3 years later than the sophomore version. The problem is not Bell leaving - it happens all over college bball, so making a big deal over it now seems a bit disingenuous, especially considering there wasn't exactly an uproar on the board at the time - the problem is that Ford has not found enough good bigs since. 

Traore I find to be a much more interesting case and a bit under the radar. His freshman season, he started getting some minutes during a stretch in which Linnsen missed some games due to injury. I recall commenting after a game against Fordham in which he had 9 rebounds against Fordham's experienced big Ohams. He was certainly raw, but I was impressed with Traore's athleticism and motor. When Linnsen came back, the playing time dwindled. Again, players leave all the time throughout college basketball, and I feel like SLU probably even does better than average in terms of retention - many teams have had mass exoduses in recent years - BUT  this is the kind of under-recruited, athletic young big that we need to keep and develop. BTW, the rest of the list of players who left list, I could care less about. I don't think any of us knows, if Traore simply left because he thought he could get more playing time elsewhere, then I don't blame Ford - the current rules make leaving VERY easy. BUT, if Ford told him that he should look elsewhere, then that would've been a big mistake.

[HoosierPal]

1 hour ago, ACE said:

Bell and Traore are the two bigs I want to focus on. Ford deserves credit for landing two lightly recruited bigs who had ability. Of the two, Traore I feel is more like the one who got away. 

With Bell, he suffered an ankle injury in October of 2020, he missed a couple of games, also there were reports that he arrived at the start of the season not in the best of shape. All you had to do was watch him play to see that. Bell missed a couple of games that season, only started 5, and was clearly outplayed by Linnsen. With Okoro coming in, and Linnsen still on the roster, there was not much of a path of playing time for Jimmy the following season (Okoro was going to be a junior, just like Bell). Also, reportedly there may have been academic issues. Bell transferred in July of 2021 - that is very late, so something strange must have been happening. Plus, how does a player who spent two years at a four-year college, then wind up at a JUCO (a two-year college) in year 3? I'm genuinely curious if that is a thing. IF things were going well for Bell at the time, he would have surely gone transferred to a 4-year college. 

Kudos to Bell for using that JUCO year wisely and getting his act together. I don't blame Ford for that one, and neither did most folks on the board at the time. Of course, a healthy and focused Bell is going to be better 3 years later than the sophomore version. The problem is not Bell leaving - it happens all over college bball, so making a big deal over it now seems a bit disingenuous, especially considering there wasn't exactly an uproar on the board at the time - the problem is that Ford has not found enough good bigs since. 

I always liked Jimmy Bell and his attitude for getting in shape at SLU.  Congrats also for obtaining a degree and now being a Grad Transfer at Mississippi St.  He didn't have to go through this 2X waiver BS.

I watched Mr. Bell in person last season at Allen Fieldhouse playing KU.  His main roll that game was setting screens, which of course he was good at.  He didn't score, he didn't even attempt a shot, and grabbed 3 boards.  He didn't play but about 15 minutes as he had trouble staying with KU's smaller, quicker bigs.  But it was good seeing The Locomotive in action.

[slufan13]

I've kind of gotten to the point where I don't really criticize coaches for players having success elsewhere after transferring. Some guys just need a wake-up call, some need a slightly different system (you can make an argument that that's a recruiting miss), some could have personal (non physical) reasons for needing to transfer that makes a difference for them. 

But I do think ACE is correct in that we have given up on big man recruits too quickly over the years. And it's not like trying to bring in upperclassmen transfers has led us to a bunch of wins/success. 

[Taj79]

Short of Ian Voyoukous name me a big man who has come to SLU and "developed" over his stay here?  French came in and went out the same player.  Okoro the same.  Linssen the same.  Forrester the same.  Foreman the same.  Conklin was a rare exception and that took three years.  Plus Brian was only 6'6''.  Not a "big" by my definition.  

The guys that did develop as time progressed were Bess, Goodwin, Jimerson.  Noted gym rats shooting, shooting, shooting day in and day out.  Kind of makes sense why Medley might like it here under Ford.

[Soderball]

2 hours ago, Taj79 said:

Short of Ian Voyoukous name me a big man who has come to SLU and "developed" over his stay here?  French came in and went out the same player.  Okoro the same.  Linssen the same.  Forrester the same.  Foreman the same.  Conklin was a rare exception and that took three years.  Plus Brian was only 6'6''.  Not a "big" by my definition.  

The guys that did develop as time progressed were Bess, Goodwin, Jimerson.  Noted gym rats shooting, shooting, shooting day in and day out.  Kind of makes sense why Medley might like it here under Ford.

Rob Loe.

[thetorch]

Bell only had academic issues because he took off after the season was over his sophomore year.

[Taj79]

@Soderball:  thanks.  Always seem to forget Rob Loe.  

[Soderball]

37 minutes ago, Taj79 said:

@Soderball:  thanks.  Always seem to forget Rob Loe.  

He had to earn his minutes and production on some very good teams. Wasn't really the "there's no one else" situation of the last couple years.

[cgeldmacher]

17 hours ago, Taj79 said:

Short of Ian Voyoukous name me a big man who has come to SLU and "developed" over his stay here?  French came in and went out the same player.  Okoro the same.  Linssen the same.  Forrester the same.  Foreman the same.  Conklin was a rare exception and that took three years.  Plus Brian was only 6'6''.  Not a "big" by my definition.  

The guys that did develop as time progressed were Bess, Goodwin, Jimerson.  Noted gym rats shooting, shooting, shooting day in and day out.  Kind of makes sense why Medley might like it here under Ford.

Almost every guy you mentioned was a transfer who only played her for a year or two.  Hard to develop in that short amount of time.  I would look more at the guys who came in as freshmen.  Don't disagree with your point, but the examples you cited aren't the best.

[billikenfan05]

This is a pointless conversation. Under Travis Ford, there is only one player who you would call a classic forward that came in as a Freshman and stayed 4 years at SLU. That is Hasahn French. Every other freshman big that has come in has left after one year except Carteare Gordon and he was here for 1.5 years. Carteare is the only other high school TF recruit that saw meaningful minutes in the post under Ford. The rest have been transfers or grad transfers. 

[ACE]

I think in today's game with open free agency, the best route is to go get your top two bigs from the portal. Let another school spend all the time developing them, and then you have a more experienced player coming in - either a productive player from a lower level "transferring up" - Martin Linnsen or a player who was a reserve at a higher level transferring down - think Franco or Brandon Johns from Michigan to VCU last year. Then the 3rd big would be a freshman - hope that you strike gold and you can get him to stick around. IF not, then move on to the next developmental big the following year.

[Dr Bird]

13 minutes ago, ACE said:

I think in today's game with open free agency, the best route is to go get your top two bigs from the portal. Let another school spend all the time developing them, and then you have a more experienced player coming in - either a productive player from a lower level "transferring up" - Martin Linnsen or a player who was a reserve at a higher level transferring down - think Franco or Brandon Johns from Michigan to VCU last year. Then the 3rd big would be a freshman - hope that you strike gold and you can get him to stick around. IF not, then move on to the next developmental big the following year.

or once every 4 years find an under-recruited big man who becomes a starter 3 games into his freshman year and leads us to the Final 4, then for an encore leads us to a Sweet 16 his senior year.  Loyola did this with Cameron Krutwig. 

[RUBillsFan]

38 minutes ago, billikenfan05 said:

This is a pointless conversation. Under Travis Ford, there is only one player who you would call a classic forward that came in as a Freshman and stayed 4 years at SLU. That is Hasahn French. Every other freshman big that has come in has left after one year except Carteare Gordon and he was here for 1.5 years. Carteare is the only other high school TF recruit that saw meaningful minutes in the post under Ford. The rest have been transfers or grad transfers. 

Gordon was only here for 1/2 season.

Jimmy Bell at 2 years is (I think) the only traditional big man (outside of French) who came in as a freshman & was here more than 1 year.

if you want count Welmer because his 1st year playing was under Ford he stuck around, but was rarely health after that 1 year.

Jalen Johnson and KC Hankton were 2 years, but not really a traditional bigs.

DJ Foreman, Rashed Anthony, Francis Okoro, Marten Linssen, Jake Forrester we’re transfers.  Santos also a transfer but never played.

Diarra, Traore, and Cisse were gone after 1 year.

Ford’s teams have rarely had quality depth in the front court.  He struck out in the portal this off-season and was banking on a 2 time transfer being eligible which exasperated the problem.

[billikenfan05]

9 minutes ago, RUBillsFan said:

Gordon was only here for 1/2 season.

Jimmy Bell at 2 years is (I think) the only traditional big man (outside of French) who came in as a freshman & was here more than 1 year.

if you want count Welmer because his 1st year playing was under Ford he stuck around, but was rarely health after that 1 year.

Jalen Johnson and KC Hankton were 2 years, but not really a traditional bigs.

DJ Foreman, Rashed Anthony, Francis Okoro, Marten Linssen, Jake Forrester we’re transfers.  Santos also a transfer but never played.

Diarra, Traore, and Cisse were gone after 1 year.

Ford’s teams have rarely had quality depth in the front court.  He struck out in the portal this off-season and was banking on a 2 time transfer being eligible which exasperated the problem.

Thanks. I forgot Jimmy Bell, maybe because he was a prep schooler. So Jimmy Bell and Hasahn French in 8 years. NICE.

[Pistol]

26 minutes ago, ACE said:

I think in today's game with open free agency, the best route is to go get your top two bigs from the portal. Let another school spend all the time developing them, and then you have a more experienced player coming in - either a productive player from a lower level "transferring up" - Martin Linnsen or a player who was a reserve at a higher level transferring down - think Franco or Brandon Johns from Michigan to VCU last year. Then the 3rd big would be a freshman - hope that you strike gold and you can get him to stick around. IF not, then move on to the next developmental big the following year.

Except that with NIL, bigs that have already been developed go for a premium. We got Okoro and Linssen before we would've had to outbid other programs for them. This year, we got outbid for every target big in the portal. The guys we could still afford were overseas.

I don't disagree with your premise for a program with an NIL budget sufficient to build a team that way. That's not SLU right now, though.

[Soderball]

On 12/1/2023 at 3:53 PM, Pistol said:

Except that with NIL, bigs that have already been developed go for a premium. We got Okoro and Linssen before we would've had to outbid other programs for them. This year, we got outbid for every target big in the portal. The guys we could still afford were overseas.

I don't disagree with your premise for a program with an NIL budget sufficient to build a team that way. That's not SLU right now, though.

At 2.4mil/year Ford is supposed to be doing this. He's paid to recruit.

I do agree we should stop paying him, as he is apparently worthless for our recruiting.

[brianstl]

On 11/28/2023 at 10:37 AM, Pistol said:

I was wondering which of our former players still playing (or eligible to play) in the college ranks might be looking pretty useful for us right now so I decided to see what they're up to. I know most of these won't be "news" to most of you but wanted to put them all in the same spot, regardless. Anyway, bottom line is quite a few of them would be nice to have around right now:

• Jimmy Bell, Jr.: Averaging 10.0 PPG, 9.5 RPG, and 1.5 BPG for Mississippi State, which is ranked for the second week in a row. He averaged about 5 and 5 for West Virginia last season.
• Lassina Traore: Averaging 10.8 PPG and 9.6 RPG for Long Beach State. His numbers are actually down from last season, when he averaged 12.9 and 10.5.
• Andre Lorentsson: Averaging 6.7 PPG and 2.2 RPG for Toledo and getting more than double the minutes he got last season.
• Markhi Strickland: Averaging 4.7 PPG and 2.7 RPG for Western Michigan after spending last year in the JUCO ranks.
• Jordan Nesbitt: Currently sitting out due to "eligibility concerns" due to "previous issues that had been uncovered" in the NCAA's recertification process, likely from before he was at Hampton (probably at Memphis). Hampton's head coach said he is expected back soon. He's listed as a junior and averaged 14.9 PPG, 6.3 RPG, and 3.3 APG last season.
• Daniel Rivera: Averaging 10.0 PPG, 7.1 RPG, and 2.0 APG for Bryant. His dunk last night against lower-division Springfield made the SportsCenter Top Ten.
• Phillip Russell: Sitting out this season at UT-Arlington after averaging 18.1 PPG, 5.1 APG, and 2.9 RPG last season at SEMO. He was not ruled immediately eligible due to his two-time transfer status.
• Rashad Williams: Averaging 18.1 PPG, 2.6 RPG, 4.1 APG and 3.3 TOs for Arkansas-Pine Bluff.
• Momo Cisse: Averaging 5.7 and 5.7 at Trinity Valley CC in Texas.
• Nick Kramer: Has not played yet this season for Missouri State.
• Madani Diarra: Appears to be done with basketball. Appeared in 9 games at Bowling Green last season. After SLU, he played one year at Eastern Illinois and one at Indian Hills CC before going to BGSU. He would've had another year this season.
• Carte'Are Gordon: Appears to be awaiting trial on charges stemming from an incident in March in which he and three other men forcibly entered a Grambling State dorm room while armed. Before the incident, Gordon was averaging 12.7 PPG and 7.0 RPG and had Grambling looking like a favorite to win the SWAC and possibly get its first ever NCAA Tournament appearance.

Edit: Added Rashad Williams.

Jordan Nesbitt played his first game of the season last night for Hampton.  In 27 minutes against the D3 Mary Baldwin Fighting Squirrels he finished with 6 points, 8 rebounds, 6 assists, 2 steals and 1 block.

Nick Kramer still hasn't suited up for MO State as he recovers from back surgery.

[Pistol]

1 minute ago, brianstl said:

Jordan Nesbitt played his first game of the season last night for Hampton.  In 27 minutes against the D3 Mary Baldwin Fighting Squirrels he finished with 6 points, 8 rebounds, 6 assists, 2 steals and 1 block.

Nick Kramer still hasn't suited up for MO State as he recovers from back surgery.

Thanks for the update.

I couldn't find what was going on with Kramer, so that makes sense. Hopefully he makes it back to 100%. Back issues are tricky.

Mary Baldwin has only admitted male students since 2017 so they're not exactly a powerhouse, even at the D-III level. Although they are 3-4, which isn't bad for a new program. Fighting Squirrels is a top-tier nickname.

[brianstl]

1 minute ago, Pistol said:

Thanks for the update.

I couldn't find what was going on with Kramer, so that makes sense. Hopefully he makes it back to 100%. Back issues are tricky.

Mary Baldwin has only admitted male students since 2017 so they're not exactly a powerhouse, even at the D-III level. Although they are 3-4, which isn't bad for a new program. Fighting Squirrels is a top-tier nickname.

Back surgery on a guy Kramer's age is something you don't see often.  Not sure what necessitated it, only heard that he is still recovering from the surgery.