Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I think Toppin was National POY because of the so-called "eye test."  All the dunks made people gloss over his weaknesses.  He didn't display a killer shooting ability.  Many moons ago, I made this similar review of Jordair's game ... take out the layups and what was Jordair's FG%?  Change that to dunks with Toppin and what was his shooting percentage?  After Tuesday's Knicks' game, Toppin was 1 for 10 from behind the arc and shooting 9 for 24 (37.5% from the field overall.  Toppin was not a dominant rebounder like French/Goodwin.  Toppin was not a decent post defender.  Not only did Crutcher benefit from playing with Toppin, but Toppin benefitted from playing with Mikesell and especially Landers.  Landers was not a great talent but his willingness to do "the dirty work" allowed Toppin to free lance more and be more special.   Dayton's team play made Toppin better.  Toppin was a college talent, amplified by playing in the A10 where counter big men were hard to find.  He'll have a journeyman career in the NBA.  

I don't think it fair to compare Perkins to Toppin other than comparing team parts.  Javonte is our pure scoring leader.  Any tema needs that.  But he will work better in an environment where he is surrounded by Collins, French, Jimmmerson, Goodwin, Jacobs, Hargrove and the others.  The sum of the parts --- all being key.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 2.3k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

21 hours ago, Clocktoweraccords2004 said:

rankings shouldn’t exist until game 8 imo

I try to not get as worked about sports at this point in my life, but this is one topic that does kind of get me. Completely agree with getting rid of the early season rankings. But I’d go a step further and completely change how these rankings are done, taking it out of the hands of the media and coaches and whoever votes and make it completely computer based. So at least you can point to actual data determining how one team is ranked ahead of another team. Take the human element out of it, but then you might have to give some respect to the little ol’ programs like SLU. Bah humbug.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some Friday scores of note:

SIUE grounds Morehead State - 69-65

Richmond crawls past Loyola - 75-73 and

Davidson rams past Rhody - 67-58 as Carter Collins pours in 22 on 8-14 shooting.

Davidson has five solid starters and almost no depth. Collins, Grady, and HJ Lee combined for 49.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Taj79 said:

I think Toppin was National POY because of the so-called "eye test."  All the dunks made people gloss over his weaknesses.  He didn't display a killer shooting ability.  Many moons ago, I made this similar review of Jordair's game ... take out the layups and what was Jordair's FG%?  Change that to dunks with Toppin and what was his shooting percentage?  After Tuesday's Knicks' game, Toppin was 1 for 10 from behind the arc and shooting 9 for 24 (37.5% from the field overall.  Toppin was not a dominant rebounder like French/Goodwin.  Toppin was not a decent post defender.  Not only did Crutcher benefit from playing with Toppin, but Toppin benefitted from playing with Mikesell and especially Landers.  Landers was not a great talent but his willingness to do "the dirty work" allowed Toppin to free lance more and be more special.   Dayton's team play made Toppin better.  Toppin was a college talent, amplified by playing in the A10 where counter big men were hard to find.  He'll have a journeyman career in the NBA.  

I don't think it fair to compare Perkins to Toppin other than comparing team parts.  Javonte is our pure scoring leader.  Any tema needs that.  But he will work better in an environment where he is surrounded by Collins, French, Jimmmerson, Goodwin, Jacobs, Hargrove and the others.  The sum of the parts --- all being key.

 

My feelings on Toppin are the same as yours. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

Obi Toppin is making $10,000,000 guaranteed over the next two years.  Just sayin'.

Alex, I'll take "Eye Test" for $10,000,000.

Did you have a point? He had a very good college career. High draft picks get paid. His NBA career is yet to unfold. If it'll make you feel good though, if I'm wrong (and it won't be the 1st time) you can come back and remind me. 

And maybe I should have made a better comment. I can appreciate he was a very good or great college player. However I don't think he'll be a great NBA player. So my comment wasn't meant to demean his college career but to remark on what I thought of him as a player going forward. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Taj79 said:

I think Toppin was National POY because of the so-called "eye test."  All the dunks made people gloss over his weaknesses.  He didn't display a killer shooting ability.  Many moons ago, I made this similar review of Jordair's game ... take out the layups and what was Jordair's FG%?  Change that to dunks with Toppin and what was his shooting percentage?  After Tuesday's Knicks' game, Toppin was 1 for 10 from behind the arc and shooting 9 for 24 (37.5% from the field overall.  Toppin was not a dominant rebounder like French/Goodwin.  Toppin was not a decent post defender.  Not only did Crutcher benefit from playing with Toppin, but Toppin benefitted from playing with Mikesell and especially Landers.  Landers was not a great talent but his willingness to do "the dirty work" allowed Toppin to free lance more and be more special.   Dayton's team play made Toppin better.  Toppin was a college talent, amplified by playing in the A10 where counter big men were hard to find.  He'll have a journeyman career in the NBA.  

I don't think it fair to compare Perkins to Toppin other than comparing team parts.  Javonte is our pure scoring leader.  Any tema needs that.  But he will work better in an environment where he is surrounded by Collins, French, Jimmmerson, Goodwin, Jacobs, Hargrove and the others.  The sum of the parts --- all being key.

 

so the effectiveness of a college player is based on

 1. how well they do as a professional.  and

2. based on shooting percentages  beyond 3 feet from the basket?   got it.  

imo, those emphatic dunks you want to minimize changed games.   they demoralize and take confidence from the opponent.   most teams in the conference dont have a player like that on their team for a decade or more or maybe ever.    yes someone had to get him the ball, but then it was up to obi to convert and convert with authority and style he did.   dayton fans went wild, opposing coaches had to burn timeouts they would desparately need at the end of the game if they were somehow close.   we were close both games likely as much because french played great defense on obi and took a lot of that away every time they matched up with our billikens.   kind of like when josh fisher would shut down dwayne wade.   hell i was so down on wade after the way fisher beat him up, i was shocked he ended up an nba hall of famer to be.   maybe obi wont end up in the nba hall of fame, but he will be a dayton hall of famer.   

last, for the record, obi shot over 40% from the 3 point line his career at dayton and he shot 82 threes, so it was not 4 for 10 for the season kind of thing either to get to that 40%. 

hey, taj, i get it.   you hate all things dayton.   i am a dayton hater as much as anyone.   but give them credit for a lifetime season.   they were f'ing good last year and the team and the players deserve all the credit they get.   i am just glad it came a year before the billikens are having their lifetime season.    

Link to post
Share on other sites

We already have evidence of what a team with Landers and Mikesell but no Toppin, was like: below .500.  We see how hard Crutcher has to work just to put up the same numbers he did last year.  Toppin was going to get his numbers regardless of who he played with because an above average basketball player housed in a freakishly athletic 6'9 body is unguardable at the mid-major level.  

Luka Garza is a much better basketball player housed in a much less athletic body.  He's going to be a journeyman pro also.  I'm not sure how future NBA success is relevant to a player's effectiveness in college.  Without those players, Dayton and Iowa are not even at-large teams.  With them, they're top 5.

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

Did you have a point? He had a very good college career. High draft picks get paid. His NBA career is yet to unfold. If it'll make you feel good though, if I'm wrong (and it won't be the 1st time) you can come back and remind me. 

And maybe I should have made a better comment. I can appreciate he was a very good or great college player. However I don't think he'll be a great NBA player. So my comment wasn't meant to demean his college career but to remark on what I thought of him as a player going forward. 

and HP is saying (if I may) that whatever his ability @ this point he parleyed it onto big $$$, so there's that.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thought this was interesting. Our upcoming opponent, UMKC, plays a twi-night doubleheader today. That's right, they have a Noon game vs. Kansas Christian, and follow that with a 5pm game against the same opponent. Also, it's Kansas Christian's first game(s) against a D-1 opponent. 2020, what else can happen?

Want an early scouting report on UMKC? Watch here: https://kcroos.com/watch/?Live=92&type=Live

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, almaman said:

and HP is saying (if I may) that whatever his ability @ this point he parleyed it onto big $$$, so there's that.

I understand that. And that's certainly great for him. Reminding me or anyone that the a high NBA draft pick got paid is like reminding me that the sky is blue. Already understood

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, billikenbill said:

Some Friday scores of note:

SIUE grounds Morehead State - 69-65

Richmond crawls past Loyola - 75-73 and

Davidson rams past Rhody - 67-58 as Carter Collins pours in 22 on 8-14 shooting.

Davidson has five solid starters and almost no depth. Collins, Grady, and HJ Lee combined for 49.

 

We’re so much better than everyone else in our league

Link to post
Share on other sites

Up until his senior year in high school, Obi Toppin was a 6'2" guard with no major D1 offers.  He went to prep school and he then redshirted at YouDee his first year.  In that time, he had a seven-inch growth spurt.  So what, right?  In my opinion, you then got a guard in a big man's body .... which means Obi understood the flow of the game better than a Jimmy Bell who has been hiuge his whole basketball life.  You really can't teach that to a seven-footer, he has to already have it in him like Toppin did.  

These skills are rare ..... Magic, Ben Simmons, Cade Cunningham ...and such skills can easily exploit a conference like the A10 where few decent big men exist and if they do, they are stationary rocks without the flow Toppin obviously had/has.  I enjoyed Toppin --- however, i think in his two year career he recorded two dunks against us because we were more physical than he.

Did he have a great two-year career and did he deserve POY?  Absolutely.  I don't really care what he does in the NBA because there, there will be two or three guys PER TEAM that can counter him one way or another.  I feel bad for Dayton  overall on last year's cancellation of the tournament but like many of you on here, I wanted to see if our third time was going to be a charm in Brooklyn.  And I have seen one 6'9" guy win a national title in Danny and the Miracles (Manning/Kansas).  I do not disagree with roy's take on the team overall, just saying that a team is the sum of its parts and Dayton had key parts that generally get overlooked when all eyes are on the dunker.

As for whatever a person makes in the NBA, who gives a fuok.  Sam Bowie.  Adam Morrison.  Jimmer Fredette.  Anthony Bennett.  Chris Washburn.  Kwame Brown.  Darko.  JonKoncak.  Michael Olowokandi.  Greg Oden.  And while not on that list just yet, who did the Knicks take with their first pick last  year?  The studly Kevin Knox.  

Once a kid leaves college (with Billiken exceptions) I really don't care.

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Taj79 said:

Up until his senior year in high school, Obi Toppin was a 6'2" guard with no major D1 offers.  He went to prep school and he then redshirted at YouDee his first year.  In that time, he had a seven-inch growth spurt.  So what, right?  In my opinion, you then got a guard in a big man's body .... which means Obi understood the flow of the game better than a Jimmy Bell who has been hiuge his whole basketball life.  You really can't teach that to a seven-footer, he has to already have it in him like Toppin did.  

These skills are rare ..... Magic, Ben Simmons, Cade Cunningham ...and such skills can easily exploit a conference like the A10 where few decent big men exist and if they do, they are stationary rocks without the flow Toppin obviously had/has.  I enjoyed Toppin --- however, i think in his two year career he recorded two dunks against us because we were more physical than he.

Did he have a great two-year career and did he deserve POY?  Absolutely.  I don't really care what he does in the NBA because there, there will be two or three guys PER TEAM that can counter him one way or another.  I feel bad for Dayton  overall on last year's cancellation of the tournament but like many of you on here, I wanted to see if our third time was going to be a charm in Brooklyn.  And I have seen one 6'9" guy win a national title in Danny and the Miracles (Manning/Kansas).  I do not disagree with roy's take on the team overall, just saying that a team is the sum of its parts and Dayton had key parts that generally get overlooked when all eyes are on the dunker.

As for whatever a person makes in the NBA, who gives a fuok.  Sam Bowie.  Adam Morrison.  Jimmer Fredette.  Anthony Bennett.  Chris Washburn.  Kwame Brown.  Darko.  JonKoncak.  Michael Olowokandi.  Greg Oden.  And while not on that list just yet, who did the Knicks take with their first pick last  year?  The studly Kevin Knox.  

Once a kid leaves college (with Billiken exceptions) I really don't care.

You don’t care? The paragraphs you’ve written about him sure make it seem like you care.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of those nba players weren’t that “elite” in college.  And more often than not, the great college players don’t go on to great careers in NBA.  It’s a different game.  And being from a city without an nba team and not really having an interest in the nba, I’m completely fine with it.

there are like 5 programs in the country that can claim to be “nba prep schools”.  The rest are fighting for the same 4 star recruits across the country, with the occasional one and done to Arizona or somewhere else who can shell out the $$$.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Billies --- I explained what Toppin did/was while at YouDee, a major competitor of ours.  I cared then seeing as we faced then twice even three times a year.  I enjoyed his two years against us but now that he's gone ..... meh I don't care.  There's only one name on the jersey for me and that's the front.  That will never change.  

Toppin's career against us was somewhat as night and day as his two seasons.  His freshman year, in three games, he went 9-for 24 from the field with 1 of 3 from distance.  That's 38%/33%,  Decent from the line at 10 for 12 with 20 rebounds while averaging a little over 9 ppg. Last year, 14 for 26 with 4 of 9 from distance for 53%/44% and 14 rebounds in two games.  Averaged his 18.5 ppg in those two.  Marked improvement from one year to the next.  Eye popping?  Not really.  But the dunks and Dayton's run got him the added attention to go over the top.  Good for them.  Hopefully, that's us this year.  Luka Garza may get this year's NPOY but he won't ebenfit fromthe glitz and glamour that Toppin got from the windmill dunks and all that because he's earth-bound.  Nothing wrong with that.

With my growing disdain for MLB and the NFL, my long past attention to the NBA, and disinterest in the Canadian sport, college ball is what I live for.  The Bills and their A10 competition.  I always care about that and if that means knowing a bunch of useless shite about Ryan Daly, Kyle Lofton and Obi Toppin, so be it.  But the data gets dumped when they leave.  Except for some fuzzy memories like Shaun Haughn's career game against us, Eric Williams, Jr. setting the current Chaifetz scoring record, or 5 and 23 Detroit knocking us out of the MCC tournament one year in Indy.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Brighton said:

This is a disappointment. This game would have released a lot of information.   Not just as common  opponents of the Bills but 2 highly ranked ones.....LSU ( A ) and VCU ( A- )...In addition, it would have provided some valuable info on the A-10 race. Right now, I consider VCU our biggest competitor....I am not writing off Rich ( B+ ) just saying that VCU is our #1 competitor at this time.

Let me be clear...LSU would have won this game ...LSU by 8...but just the same it would have been nice to have the data from the contest to make future predictions more accurate.

We will eventually get to my magic 8 number but like so many other things in 2020,  things will be slower.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Wiz ----love to see what you have, right now, in aside by side comparison of VCU and Richmond.  I have an eye test that says VCU can't shoot well and is extremely undisciplined whereas Richmond is the complete opposite.  Plus Richmond is older and much more headier than the youthful an emotional VCU.  These things may be unmeasurable in your computer analytics however.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

My favorite move in the rankings is UNC rising 5 spots for beating Kentucky.  Everybody beats Kentucky.  The  mid-majors who are not undefeated are all conveniently clustered at 26, 27 and 28.  Mid-majors are not allowed to lose.

That UNC - UK game was the worst played game I have seen between two "blue blood" programs. Just awful at times.

Link to post
Share on other sites

ive seen two games and right now, love is not a good high D1 guard.    my understanding is he really never played point guard at CBC anyway.   

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, kshoe said:

Dropped to 28 in the AP rankings.

Kind of pleasantly surprised. We clearly got some credit for the NC State win - thank God we scheduled and won that game. I thought the punishment for the Gopher loss would be greater than dropping a single spot from 27 to 28. 

@Pistolsaid in another thread that "we don't need to follow the rankings for the foreseeable future" but being at 28 makes us a live dog. Our path to a Top 10 ranking / high seed is certainly hobbled. But it shouldn't take too many A10 wins to crack the Top 25. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...