GDT: SLU v. VCU

[cheeseman]

10 hours ago, Cowboy II said:

-from the Post article It’s going to be tough when we’re not scoring,” SLU coach Travis Ford said. “We have way too many deficiencies defensively. A lot of stuff we do offensively they did a great job of stopping. It’s a disappointing performance. We didn’t play well at all and our offense led to poor defense.”

“We just have to find an identity,” Ford said. “We have a lot of inconsistencies and no rhythm whatsoever. We have to figure it out. We’re trying to find combinations at this point, not just starters. Just guys who put together positive production.”

-smh

Remember the fish rots from the head down

[Lord Elrond]

10 hours ago, Cowboy II said:

-from the Post article It’s going to be tough when we’re not scoring,” SLU coach Travis Ford said. “We have way too many deficiencies defensively. A lot of stuff we do offensively they did a great job of stopping. It’s a disappointing performance. We didn’t play well at all and our offense led to poor defense.”

“We just have to find an identity,” Ford said. “We have a lot of inconsistencies and no rhythm whatsoever. We have to figure it out. We’re trying to find combinations at this point, not just starters. Just guys who put together positive production.”

-smh

He’s not wrong, they do have way too many deficiencies defensively. Defense is the 292nd rated in the nation, giving up 76.7 points a game. Hard to score enough to overcome that, as we have seen.

[TheChosenOne]

1 hour ago, Lord Elrond said:

He’s not wrong, they do have way too many deficiencies defensively. Defense is the 292nd rated in the nation, giving up 76.7 points a game. Hard to score enough to overcome that, as we have seen.

Yeah, as much as I think I am done with Ford, in his interviews over the past few weeks he has said everything I would want him to with regards to assessing the team and I thought he often did a year ago too. I realize some coaches never say anything to the media critical of their team, but he has highlighted all of the areas we have said the team needs to get better at which to me I like to hear. I don't listen after games, but in the interviews before the games he is candid with the deficiencies of this group. I would note on Pomeroy, our defense is ranked #305. Obviously, it is his job to fix it, but he clearly sees the same deficiencies as we do. So, he just leaves it up to his son and his buddies to make the excuses!

[johnbj14]

There’s a big difference between saying the right thing, and being the guy to fix it. 
 

The problems of Ford’s teams on defense have gotten worse the deeper we get into his tenure. That doesn’t suggest he’s the guy to fix them. 

[billikenfan05]

1 hour ago, TheChosenOne said:

Yeah, as much as I think I am done with Ford, in his interviews over the past few weeks he has said everything I would want him to with regards to assessing the team and I thought he often did a year ago too. I realize some coaches never say anything to the media critical of their team, but he has highlighted all of the areas we have said the team needs to get better at which to me I like to hear. I don't listen after games, but in the interviews before the games he is candid with the deficiencies of this group. I would note on Pomeroy, our defense is ranked #305. Obviously, it is his job to fix it, but he clearly sees the same deficiencies as we do. So, he just leaves it up to his son and his buddies to make the excuses!

I hear you, but at this point the problem isn't about the 2023-24 Billikens. Because it's been the same issue for 4 years now. It's about not addressing the defensive deficiencies after it was so clearly the reason last years team underachieved.

[VeniceMenace]

29 minutes ago, billikenfan05 said:

I hear you, but at this point the problem isn't about the 2023-24 Billikens. Because it's been the same issue for 4 years now. It's about not addressing the defensive deficiencies after it was so clearly the reason last years team underachieved.

Agree. Overall KenPom rankings during Ford's tenure:

2017: 273

2018: 148

2019: 106

2020: 62

2021: 53

2022: 68

2023: 96

Current: 200

[3star_recruit]

12 minutes ago, VeniceMenace said:

Agree. Overall KenPom rankings during Ford's tenure:

2017: 273

2018: 148

2019: 106

2020: 62

2021: 53

2022: 68

2023: 96

Current: 200

The defense sucked when Coach Ford got here.  In a couple of years he made us competitive on defense (about top 100) and for the next four years that has been our calling card.  We are a top 100 defense or even better at the height of bully ball.  Ideally you want your best offensive players to also be good defenders but that isn't always going to happen. 

But when your entire starting lineup consists of guys who are average to below average defenders, you have what we've experienced this year: total defensive collapse.

 

[TheChosenOne]

1 hour ago, johnbj14 said:

There’s a big difference between saying the right thing, and being the guy to fix it. 

The problems of Ford’s teams on defense have gotten worse the deeper we get into his tenure. That doesn’t suggest he’s the guy to fix them. 

Oh yeah, no question there. I was merely commenting that I have found Ford to be fairly candid over the past 12+ months with regards to the deficiencies of his teams and his commentary is in line with what those on this board complain about. Again, that doesn't make me feel any better about the team or change my evaluation of Ford, merely commenting that I at least appreciate him directly acknowledging the issues as opposed to pretending they don't exist like so many coaches do when speaking to the media. My commentary was completely limited to the quote and his direct acknowledgement of our deficiencies as a team.

I have little trust in Ford ever being the guy to "fix" a roster that has deficiencies. The key for a guy like Ford is building the right roster that makes up for his deficiencies as a coach. Unfortunately, he has not found or stumbled into the right mix of players since guys like Goodwin and French moved on (he never maximized those rosters either) and it now has me questioning whether talent evaluation and roster construction is another deficiency of Ford's.

[JMM28]

6 minutes ago, TheChosenOne said:

The key for a guy like Ford is building the right roster that makes up for his deficiencies as a coach.

He could have the McDonalds all american roster annually and maybe reach a Sweet 16. The guy has shown for decades he cannot develop players. He has also shown he can't game plan nor adjust. He has to out-talent you for 40 minutes at every position to win. 

[billiken_roy]

french, goodwin and bess came into the program with defensive skills and understandings.   they also had exteme heart, desire and effort.   i.e. they already knew what it took to play defense at a higher level.  their efforts were contagious to the others and it seemed to me that no one wanted to be the player that stood out as the problem and all bought in.   it had nothing to do with what ford was teaching.   the results mirrored the crewsplatt first years when the players pretty much coached themselves.   

now all that experience and attitude and focus is gone.   and none of this current team apparently knows what they are and think they are doing the best they can.   that is b.s. as defense and rebounding is as much effort and focus as it is any taught skill.   and ford bad mouthing them and their effort isnt going to fix it.   ford literally should be spending the majority of practices getting the team to learn precision, responsibilities and getting them to put out the needed effort and focus to make themselves better.   my perception watching these games, they are definitely not bought in, they have little to any focus and the efforts arent there.   

at one time i applauded ford's ability to get the players to play to the best of their ability.  it seemed like he was a very good motivator.   but now that we havent seen that transpose to the teams after goodwin, bess and french, one has to wonder who the real team motivator's were on that team.  

the team seems to be a mess.  what's so frustrating is it seems that athletically they arent that far off.  we have speed, we have leaping ability, we just dont have that team focus, we dont have the individual efforts and that translates into the horrible results we are seeing.  time to make a change.   will it happen?  im betting it wont.   no wants to pay the piper all at once to make the change.  i would be thrilled if at year end it happens, but i wont be surprised if we have at least 2 more seasons after this season to deal with this.  it's a mess and it's embarrassing for the fandom.   we dont deserve this.  

[TheChosenOne]

1 minute ago, JMM28 said:

He has to out-talent you for 40 minutes at every position to win. 

No question about that. We saw that at Oklahoma State where he was often able to attract talent, but his teams would seldom finish above .500 in conference play. When he happened to hit on the right mix there his team finished 3rd in the league, was a 5 seed in the NCAA tournament, and they ended up losing in the opening round of the tournament by 13 to the #12 seed Oregon. But, the consistency of play was never there to regularly finish in the top half of a strong league where all of the teams are talented. We are seeing similar things at SLU, certainly better finishes in the league than he had at Oklahoma State, but the same issues and now things have really fallen off of a cliff (I suppose there is still 1.5 months left in the season, but to this point).

[johnbj14]

17 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

 i would be thrilled if at year end it happens, but i wont be surprised if we have at least 2 more seasons after this season to deal with this.  it's a mess and it's embarrassing for the fandom.   we dont deserve this.  

If this happens, that’ll probably be it for most of the fandom. Attendance is already in the gutter, recruiting is reaching for questionable talent levels based on the last few offers, and apathy is setting in for a lot of fans. Keeping TF around two more years could essentially kill the program in this rapidly changing landscape. 

[3star_recruit]

1 hour ago, TheChosenOne said:

Oh yeah, no question there. I was merely commenting that I have found Ford to be fairly candid over the past 12+ months with regards to the deficiencies of his teams and his commentary is in line with what those on this board complain about. Again, that doesn't make me feel any better about the team or change my evaluation of Ford, merely commenting that I at least appreciate him directly acknowledging the issues as opposed to pretending they don't exist like so many coaches do when speaking to the media. My commentary was completely limited to the quote and his direct acknowledgement of our deficiencies as a team.

I have little trust in Ford ever being the guy to "fix" a roster that has deficiencies. The key for a guy like Ford is building the right roster that makes up for his deficiencies as a coach. Unfortunately, he has not found or stumbled into the right mix of players since guys like Goodwin and French moved on and it now has me questioning whether talent evaluation and roster construction is another deficiency of Ford's.

It's not a question for me.  Roster construction is absolutely a weakness of Coach Ford.  If you don't have a fixed offensive scheme, then you at least need an offensive philosophy.  Ideally, how are we going to score?  What is plan B if our first option is taken away?  You can't just continue rolling the dice and fixing the gaps in the offseason.  You'll invariably find yourself in a situation where you're sacrificing defense to fix offensive problems.  

Let's say Coach Ford survives the season, fixes the defensive problems and we make the tournament next year.  What happens the next year after the seniors graduate?  Since there is no discernable offensive philosophy, then it's another 2-3 years of recruiting the best player available and hoping the pieces fit together.  What's to stop us from being right back here when the pieces don't fit?

Coach Ford is making his job a lot harder than it needs to be.  Just pick an offensive scheme and recruit accordingly.  Now that NIL allows teams to replace half their squad every year, coaches who can plug players into a scheme have a distinct advantage over coaches who don't.

[JettFlight5]

50 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

It's not a question for me.  Roster construction is absolutely a weakness of Coach Ford.  If you don't have a fixed offensive scheme, then you at least need an offensive philosophy.  Ideally, how are we going to score?  What is plan B if our first option is taken away?  You can't just continue rolling the dice and fixing the gaps in the offseason.  You'll invariably find yourself in a situation where you're sacrificing defense to fix offensive problems.  

Let's say Coach Ford survives the season, fixes the defensive problems and we make the tournament next year.  What happens the next year after the seniors graduate?  Since there is no discernable offensive philosophy, then it's another 2-3 years of recruiting the best player available and hoping the pieces fit together.  What's to stop us from being right back here when the pieces don't fit?

Coach Ford is making his job a lot harder than it needs to be.  Just pick an offensive scheme and recruit accordingly.  Now that NIL allows teams to replace half their squad every year, coaches who can plug players into a scheme have a distinct advantage over coaches who don't.

That is part of what made Rick so good. He recruited guys to his system...and he demanded excellence of execution.

[slufan13]

I'm not sure Majerus could take this roster and be a top 50 team. Lots of individual talent but the roster construction makes no sense. There is no team identity. I wasn't sold on the bully-ball identity as something that could take us to a Sweet 16 but at least you had a roster and a gameplan that all fit together. 

[3star_recruit]

10 minutes ago, slufan13 said:

I'm not sure Majerus could take this roster and be a top 50 team. Lots of individual talent but the roster construction makes no sense. There is no team identity. I wasn't sold on the bully-ball identity as something that could take us to a Sweet 16 but at least you had a roster and a gameplan that all fit together. 

Embedded in Coach Ford's recruiting strategy is "locking down the borders".  That has been consistent everywhere he's been.  The problem with that philosophy is that getting the best 3 stars from your local area and adding an out-of-state impact player here and there does not lend itself to an offensive scheme.  You're just throwing players together and cobbling together an offense from it.  Hence we get Bullyball.  Yurimania.

[cgeldmacher]

5 minutes ago, slufan13 said:

I'm not sure Majerus could take this roster and be a top 30 team. Lots of individual talent but the roster construction makes no sense. There is no team identity. I wasn't sold on the bully-ball identity as something that could take us to a Sweet 16 but at least you had a roster and a gameplan that all fit together. 

I guarantee he could not.  As was said above, Majerus recruited guys that were "his guys" and fit his system.  I was always amazed how Kevin Lisch and Tommy Liddell, both hard working dedicate players, could not fit into his system, but they did not.  We did not succeed until Majerus got his players in.

This season and last season are failures.  Ford is not as bad of a game day and practice coach as some on here make him out, but he's proven he's not above average either.  This year's results and the reason for there to be not much hope for the future are due to a failure of recruiting.  That was supposed to be Ford's strong suit.  This past offseason was his worst recruiting since he's been here.  If you want results, you have to do it all.  He can make up for his coaching shortcomings with stellar recruiting, but he has not done that recently.

[cgeldmacher]

By the way, my group trip was this weekend.  We had 22 guys in the Siegel Center wearing royal blue t-shirts that read "I'd rather by at Chaifetz Arena."  This was our 11th trip to a road Billiken game.  One of the worst games we've watched.  We had been to VCU once before (2016) and things got chippy with the crowd in that game.  It started out that way this time.  We were chirping back and forth with some VCU fans.  That went away as fast as the Billikens chances did in the game.  It's bad when old ladies there to support the Rams felt comfortable enough to come up to our group in the 2nd half and ask us about our trip.

[thetorch]

SLU has over 94% chance of playing in the PIG.  

The good thing is by that time we will be fully healthy, in shape, and trending towards a B+ team.  I big blowout win in the PIG can propel us to an A10 tourney title.  

[OkieBilliken]

1 minute ago, thetorch said:

SLU has over 94% chance of playing in the PIG.  

The good thing is by that time we will be fully healthy, in shape, and trending towards a B+ team.  I big blowout win in the PIG can propel us to an A10 tourney title.  

Thats the pathway to 20 wins...

[Lord Elrond]

Our highest probability outcome is finishing 15th…

[Soderball]

4 hours ago, billikenfan05 said:

I hear you, but at this point the problem isn't about the 2023-24 Billikens. Because it's been the same issue for 4 years now. It's about not addressing the defensive deficiencies after it was so clearly the reason last years team underachieved.

the recruiting class this year has also been awful. All production is coming from the guys in previous recruiting classes(Jimerson, Parker, Hargrove) .. I know posters here like to be upbeat and positive about our new guys but it is pointing us falling down the Jim Crews hole of bad play if we continue with these recruiting classes. Meadows has been terrible, Dalger is Dalger and he's gone, Van Bussel and Curcic can't even find the floor in the middle of this disaster. Ezewiro can play but he's also showing us his limits as he increasingly looks like he's ready for bed time by half time. It's been that way all year. It's not encouraging.

[Cowboy II]

3 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

It's not a question for me.  Roster construction is absolutely a weakness of Coach Ford.  If you don't have a fixed offensive scheme, then you at least need an offensive philosophy.  Ideally, how are we going to score?  What is plan B if our first option is taken away?  You can't just continue rolling the dice and fixing the gaps in the offseason.  You'll invariably find yourself in a situation where you're sacrificing defense to fix offensive problems.  

Let's say Coach Ford survives the season, fixes the defensive problems and we make the tournament next year.  What happens the next year after the seniors graduate?  Since there is no discernable offensive philosophy, then it's another 2-3 years of recruiting the best player available and hoping the pieces fit together.  What's to stop us from being right back here when the pieces don't fit?

Coach Ford is making his job a lot harder than it needs to be.  Just pick an offensive scheme and recruit accordingly.  Now that NIL allows teams to replace half their squad every year, coaches who can plug players into a scheme have a distinct advantage over coaches who don't.

-so you're saying The Weave and making plays off it isn't our offensive philosophy

[Taj79]

Go Weave!  Every A10 team stands at the foul circle for the first theee passes of our offense.  Everyone knows what CTF teams do on offense.  Athletes like VCU have no issue defending it.  And there is no plan B until Parker and Dalger and Hargrove decide to go one-on-one.

[Soderball]

45 minutes ago, Taj79 said:

Go Weave!  Every A10 team stands at the foul circle for the first theee passes of our offense.  Everyone knows what CTF teams do on offense.  Athletes like VCU have no issue defending it.  And there is no plan B until Parker and Dalger and Hargrove decide to go one-on-one.

Who's Dalger?