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5 hours ago, willie said:

I am not sure I agree with all of this. Not to knock Jacobs but you really don’t know if Hargrove can be a good 3 pt shooter. I like his form . I also don’t know if he can put the ball on the floor or not. AndI think his defense has been really good the last 4 or 5 games. Here again I like Jacobs but I think Hargrove might offer more. This doesn’t mean I don want Jacobs to play but I do believe it opens minutes for Hargrove and Weaver. 

 

 

the nutjob wants jacobs to NOT play.   i was only pointing out hargrove isnt at this point a definitely better player than jacobs and we would be foolish to wish him off the team as he has a lot of skils that shouldnt be ignored.  

hargrove's shot is nothing to desire at this point.   

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9 hours ago, willie said:

I am not sure I agree with all of this. Not to knock Jacobs but you really don’t know if Hargrove can be a good 3 pt shooter. I like his form . I also don’t know if he can put the ball on the floor or not. AndI think his defense has been really good the last 4 or 5 games. Here again I like Jacobs but I think Hargrove might offer more. This doesn’t mean I don want Jacobs to play but I do believe it opens minutes for Hargrove and Weaver. 

 

 

Some of us have been watching Hargrove for years now.  Putting the ball on the floor is not one of his strengths.  A guy that rarely took more than three dribbles in high school can't be counted on to to beat D-1 defenders off the dribble.  He compensates by being a rim runner.  That's why he and Yuri connect so well.

Hargrove has worked very hard on his free throw shooting and started knocking them down at a high rate in the second half of his senior season at East St. Louis.  It's carried over to his freshman season at SLU.  Will he ever develop into a reliable three-point shooter?  If he's willing to put in Javon Bess-level preparation, I guess it's possible.  But to simply project it because he has a nice stroke from the line seems to me wishful thinking.  Just off the top of my head, Marque Perry, Chris Sloan, Dwayne Evans and Miles Reynolds all had nice strokes from line.  Didn't translate into being a three-point threat.

I agree that Jacobs is a sounder defender but Hargrove's length gives him more margin for error.  He gave Ryan Daly fits in our last game against St. Joe's.  There will be games where Hargrove is a better match-up defensively.  In those games, Goodwin takes on more of the ballhandling responsibility to make up for the absence of Jacobs.  

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I really don't get all the animosity towards Jacobs.  He started most games this year, which is a pretty strong signal from Coach Ford and staff that they see something big.  At times he has looked pretty good; a few times, spectacular.  He has come a long way from last year, when he hardly ever did anything and also had injury issues.  Players do get better, right?  So I'm just projecting a little, but I'm of the opinion that this kid is just scratching the surface of where he could be as a senior, not to mention next year.  Sometimes it takes a few years; and we are invested in him now.  I wish the MBM's would back off Jacobs -- just a little?

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2 hours ago, DoctorB said:

I really don't get all the animosity towards Jacobs.  He started most games this year, which is a pretty strong signal from Coach Ford and staff that they see something big.  At times he has looked pretty good; a few times, spectacular.  He has come a long way from last year, when he hardly ever did anything and also had injury issues.  Players do get better, right?  So I'm just projecting a little, but I'm of the opinion that this kid is just scratching the surface of where he could be as a senior, not to mention next year.  Sometimes it takes a few years; and we are invested in him now.  I wish the MBM's would back off Jacobs -- just a little?

We need 8 guys if we're going to beat 3 straight teams in Brooklyn. Especially given how many of our guys have gotten in really bad foul trouble this year. Let's hope Jacobs continues to play steady and smart, but with just a bit more of an edge. Also, has anybody noticed how high he gets on rebounds when they hang in the air? His vertical is ridiculous. 

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2 hours ago, DoctorB said:

I really don't get all the animosity towards Jacobs.  He started most games this year, which is a pretty strong signal from Coach Ford and staff that they see something big.  At times he has looked pretty good; a few times, spectacular.  He has come a long way from last year, when he hardly ever did anything and also had injury issues.  Players do get better, right?  So I'm just projecting a little, but I'm of the opinion that this kid is just scratching the surface of where he could be as a senior, not to mention next year.  Sometimes it takes a few years; and we are invested in him now.  I wish the MBM's would back off Jacobs -- just a little?

Big Jacob's fan.  Love Hargrove's growth as well.  Of course you want Jacobs to be available to play.  Gives Ford more talent to match up with the other team, more lineup flexibility, more fouls to give and limits defense liability of Weaver.

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2 minutes ago, WVBilliken said:

Big Jacob's fan.  Love Hargrove's growth as well.  Of course you want Jacobs to be available to play.  Gives Ford more talent to match up with the other team, more lineup flexibility, more fouls to give and limits defense liability of Weaver.

fwiw, I believe yesterday Frank said he is expected to be available.

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3 hours ago, DoctorB said:

I really don't get all the animosity towards Jacobs.  He started most games this year, which is a pretty strong signal from Coach Ford and staff that they see something big.  At times he has looked pretty good; a few times, spectacular.  He has come a long way from last year, when he hardly ever did anything and also had injury issues.  Players do get better, right?  So I'm just projecting a little, but I'm of the opinion that this kid is just scratching the surface of where he could be as a senior, not to mention next year.  Sometimes it takes a few years; and we are invested in him now.  I wish the MBM's would back off Jacobs -- just a little?

I guess i could be classified in the "need to still see more from Jacobs" category. We need him, I want him, but I dont see him as an sort of X factor.  My biggest thing about him, and a shared concern from a lot on this board, is his disappearance in games. 

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4 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

Some of us have been watching Hargrove for years now.  Putting the ball on the floor is not one of his strengths.  A guy that rarely took more than three dribbles in high school can't be counted on to to beat D-1 defenders off the dribble.  He compensates by being a rim runner.  That's why he and Yuri connect so well.

Hargrove has worked very hard on his free throw shooting and started knocking them down at a high rate in the second half of his senior season at East St. Louis.  It's carried over to his freshman season at SLU.  Will he ever develop into a reliable three-point shooter?  If he's willing to put in Javon Bess-level preparation, I guess it's possible...

I definitely see TJ as becoming a legit threat from three. He already has a much better shooting technique than Javon. Bess made an odd form work through tremendous effort. If TJ puts in a similar effort he'll be a sniper from three, I have little doubt about it. Where he needs the most improvement will be getting to the rack off the bounce. It's odd to me that a player with his off the charts athleticism has mediocre ball skills. I have to believe that honing his three point shooting and developing the ability to go off the bounce will be the emphasis on skill development in the off-season. If you saw any of the ETSU game last night, their lefty, Tisdale, was unstoppable going to the rack. Hard for me to believe that an athlete such as TJ can't develop similar skills.

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3 hours ago, DoctorB said:

I really don't get all the animosity towards Jacobs.  He started most games this year, which is a pretty strong signal from Coach Ford and staff that they see something big.  At times he has looked pretty good; a few times, spectacular.  He has come a long way from last year, when he hardly ever did anything and also had injury issues.  Players do get better, right?  So I'm just projecting a little, but I'm of the opinion that this kid is just scratching the surface of where he could be as a senior, not to mention next year.  Sometimes it takes a few years; and we are invested in him now.  I wish the MBM's would back off Jacobs -- just a little?

How many people had animosity towards Jacobs? 

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Just now, slufanskip said:

How many people had animosity towards Jacobs? 

No animosity here for young Mr. Jacobs. He has proven that he can be an X factor (good thing) or a non factor (meh). Maybe the suspension will be a wake up call for him. 

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Just now, brianstl said:

That I think is a real possibility.  I think there is too much money involved with TV programming for them to cancel the tournament outright.  

No fans would benefit us as Bonawelding and Dayton will have a lot more.

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16 minutes ago, Littlebill said:

Was Yale off the bubble? I know they were on it semi-recently, but they didn’t really have the resume to back it up

On http://www.bracketmatrix.com/, Yale seems to be the first auto-bid behind the at-large teams.  It goes ETSU (auto-bid), Cincinnati (last at-large), and then Yale.  I don't think Yale would get an at-large (currently 70 in the NET rankings), but them getting the auto-bid is what is best for SLU's at-large chances regardless.

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44 minutes ago, billikenbill said:

I definitely see TJ as becoming a legit threat from three. He already has a much better shooting technique than Javon. Bess made an odd form work through tremendous effort. 

We must have been watching different Javon Besses. The one I remember looked like a shorter Kevin Durant when shooting. 

 

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15 minutes ago, Compton said:

We must have been watching different Javon Besses. The one I remember looked like a shorter Kevin Durant when shooting. 

 

I tend to agree that Bess was not a natural shooter. He had a pretty slow release, but to his credit, a lot of hard work made him a decent (not great threat) from 3. He went from shooting 27% his junior year on just 89 attempts to shooting 32% his senior season on more than 200 attempts. I would like to see Goodwin make a similar improvement for his senior season and get above 30% from 3 for the first time in his career. While I don't want him doubling his attempts the way Bess did, I think Goodwin can have a slight uptick there as well if he becomes more effective. Bess had to increase his volume because there were few other 3-point threats. Goodwin will have the luxury of playing with better shooters, so he will not be expected to have a big jump in volume.

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40 minutes ago, Cowboy said:

-playing games, very important games, with no fans would be really weird to watch and probably strange as well for the players

-the refs might like it that no fans are screaming at them and come to think of it a benefit could be hearing clearly what the coaches are barking at the refs

-would there be a pa announcer?

Miracle 3 SEC storied is a really interesting documentary, they moved the SEC basketball tournament from the Georgia Dome to Ga Tech and only let in family and friends. Georgia won 4 games in 3 days including a win over Kentucky. 

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13 minutes ago, slusam said:

I agree. We feed off the energy. Positive or negative.

 

55 minutes ago, RUBillsFan said:

No fans would make for a very very weird atmosphere.  I think we've actually played better in hostile environments (@ Rhody, @ Dayton, @ Richmond, vs K-State in KC) than we have in relatively empty gyms / arenas (@ DUQ, @ LaSalle, @St. Joes).  Therefore, I'm not ready to say that a playing in an empty arena would benefit us.

For what it's worth, arguably our most complete game of the year (or one of) was essentially the only empty neutral gym we've played in. (vs Tulane in Phoenix). If no fans are allowed, that won't be the reason we win or lose. 

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14 hours ago, billiken_roy said:

1.  hargrove would win the team decathalon.   jacobs would finish second.   

2. jacobs is a far better outside shooter than hargrove.   not even close.   jacobs release is indeed slow, but when he shoots i believe it will go in.  when hargrove shoots a 3 i typically cringe.

3. jacobs plays far better defense than hargrove.   yes hargrove is getting better and sure can end up being the better defender, but jacobs is already the better defender.

4.  i dont want hargrove dribbling the ball at all.   jacobs is one of our two backup point guards.  

5. last, why would you want a very good athlete that can shoot and defend not be able to play?   that makes no sense.   wouldnt you want the billiekens roster to be the best it can be from top to bottom?   jacobs not playing was not a good thing for the team and he hurt the team by getting suspended.   yes hargrove is playing more.   i dont think his playing has anything to do with jacobs being out.   it means his defense has improved enough that ford feels he can trust him on the floor more.   we need both to be successful.   especially considering the amount of fouls called on our team.

Jacobs has a lot of things to work on too.  Jacobs does play great defense...for 25 seconds and then he loses discipline with the shot clock running down and gives up buckets.  I agree with you that I don't want Hargrove dribbling.  But I also get very nervous when Jacobs dribbled.  He definitely is not a point guard.  He has the ball skills of an Aaron Hines.  Good enough to play point in a pinch, but you do not want him playing point if you can help it.

I'm not giving up on Jacobs.  He is still young and has a lot of potential.  I just don't think he changes the team dynamic much when he's in.  Great bench depth, though.

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breaking news: national guard being called out for a 2-week quarantine north of NYC.  Are you kidding me??  can it affect the A10 tournament?? (in case you missed it, the Ivy League tournament was canceled this morning and Yale named champion...} So stay tuned ...  https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/coronavirus-outbreak-03-10-20-intl-hnk/h_784fb34921999ed90811d28c8f83c0fd

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2 hours ago, Compton said:

We must have been watching different Javon Besses. The one I remember looked like a shorter Kevin Durant when shooting. 

 

Can’t go along with this. Right now, you could use TJ’s shooting mechanics to teach a kid to shoot. JB’s mechanics were really unlike anyone I’ve ever seen who could make a decent percentage

This next comparison dates me but there were two shooters in the NBA in the 60s and 70s named Don Ohl and Wali Jones. Probably the first shooting analysis using video was done on those two. The result was that Ohl’s shooting mechanics, which were considered ideal based on elbow and hand positions, had only 1% variance on his jump shots while Jones’ mechanics varied by as much as 15%. Ohl was a reliable shooter at all times while Jones was a streak shooter who could be off for several games in a row before heating up again.

Except for some very good pull-up shooting against Davidson in the A-10 Tourney, Bess’s shooting numbers fell quite a bit over the final 8 games or so last season.

My opinion is that his slightly off mechanics caught up to him. I’ll put it this way, when I watched JB shoot, I was never sure it was going in. Even with just a small sample size, when I watch TJ shoot, I’m surprised when they don’t fall.

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11 minutes ago, billikenbill said:

Can’t go along with this. Right now, you could use TJ’s shooting mechanics to teach a kid to shoot. JB’s mechanics were really unlike anyone I’ve ever seen who could make a decent percentage

This next comparison dates me but there were two shooters in the NBA in the 60s and 70s named Don Ohl and Wali Jones. Probably the first shooting analysis using video was done on those two. The result was that Ohl’s shooting mechanics, which were considered ideal based on elbow and hand positions, had only 1% variance on his jump shots while Jones’ mechanics varied by as much as 15%. Ohl was a reliable shooter at all times while Jones was a streak shooter who could be off for several games in a row before heating up again.

Except for some very good pull-up shooting against Davidson in the A-10 Tourney, Bess’s shooting numbers fell quite a bit over the final 8 games or so last season.

My opinion is that his slightly off mechanics caught up to him. I’ll put it this way, when I watched JB shoot, I was never sure it was going in. Even with just a small sample size, when I watch TJ shoot, I’m surprised when they don’t fall.

I think you may be relying too much on the mechanics to predict whether someone will be a good shooter. Bad mechanics are usually a strong indicator that someone will be a bad shooter, but good mechanics are no guarantee that you will be a good shooter. Yes, TJ has a clean release with no obvious flaws in his shot. But he doesn't have a track-record of being a high-level shooter, which is a much better predictor of whether a shot will go in or not.

What I will say is that if he works as hard as Javon Bess did at improving his shooting, I'm confident he has what it takes to be reliable from 3 and mid-range in college.

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