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O.T. Conference Shuffle ( OU and Texas inquire about joining SEC)


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28 minutes ago, thetorch said:

I may have given up on the A10.

Why can't the Big East be reached from the MVC vs A10. Do you have reasons? Creighton did it.

Do you think if Butler hadn't played in the A10 for a couple seasons that the BE wouldn't have tapped them from the Horizon? If so why?

We joined the A10 because it was the best conference we could be in and it recieved multiple bids giving us a better chance of getting in the NCAA tournament. It has now failed on one of those fronts. No better time to reevaluate.

I don’t think the Beast can be reached from the MVC or Horizon. Yes the A-10 is down but it doesn’t have to stay there for ever. They are located in bigger cities with greater exposure. No I don’t think Butler would have been picked out of the Horizon. Why? Perception. The A-10 still has a perceived higher profile then the other two. IMO there is no reason the A-10 can’t rise again. You are definitely selling at a market bottom. 

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9 hours ago, thetorch said:

I may have given up on the A10.

Why can't the Big East be reached from the MVC vs A10. Do you have reasons? Creighton did it.

Do you think if Butler hadn't played in the A10 for a couple seasons that the BE wouldn't have tapped them from the Horizon? If so why?

We joined the A10 because it was the best conference we could be in and it recieved multiple bids giving us a better chance of getting in the NCAA tournament. It has now failed on one of those fronts. No better time to reevaluate.

Neither Butler nor Creighton made it to the BE after dropping down from a higher ranked conference.  Dropping down to a lower ranked conference would give the perception of the Billikens in decline, not a program on the rise, making it infinitely more difficult to be picked for the BE.

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11 hours ago, thetorch said:

I may have given up on the A10.

Why can't the Big East be reached from the MVC vs A10. Do you have reasons? Creighton did it.

Do you think if Butler hadn't played in the A10 for a couple seasons that the BE wouldn't have tapped them from the Horizon? If so why?

We joined the A10 because it was the best conference we could be in and it recieved multiple bids giving us a better chance of getting in the NCAA tournament. It has now failed on one of those fronts. No better time to reevaluate.

-it was one season in the A10 which imo had nothing to do with them getting to the BEast, it was the two prior seasons when they were in the Final 4

10 hours ago, willie said:

I don’t think the Beast can be reached from the MVC or Horizon. Yes the A-10 is down but it doesn’t have to stay there for ever. They are located in bigger cities with greater exposure. No I don’t think Butler would have been picked out of the Horizon. Why? Perception. The A-10 still has a perceived higher profile then the other two. IMO there is no reason the A-10 can’t rise again. You are definitely selling at a market bottom. 

-hasn't really shown to be a benefit that has been used

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11 hours ago, willie said:

I don’t think the Beast can be reached from the MVC or Horizon. Yes the A-10 is down but it doesn’t have to stay there for ever. They are located in bigger cities with greater exposure. No I don’t think Butler would have been picked out of the Horizon. Why? Perception. The A-10 still has a perceived higher profile then the other two. IMO there is no reason the A-10 can’t rise again. You are definitely selling at a market bottom. 

Whose perception?  A fan?  From past history this doesn't play into their choices.

Creighton went from the MVC to the Big East.

Butler was in the A10, I fact checked myself, for all of 10 months before the Big East scooped them up.  They announced they were leaving for the Big East in March, before the basketball season was even over.  That means they were negotiating with the BE before or right at the start of the A10 season.  They were under consideration before they played a single possesion in the A10.  Indicates to me that had they stayed in the horizon they would have also joined the BE.

There are several reasons why the A10 can't rise again.  Butler, Xavier, Temple, we lost the best programs in the conference and replaced them with marginal programs.  The conference is bloated and watered down and has been getting worse and worse for the last decade.  There is nothing trending on an upward scale.  The A10 is no longer the best non P-6 leage, it isn't 2nd or 3rd either.

Why are we clinging to a 1 bid conference because it is perceived as slightly better than the MVC or Horizon?

SLU's recipe to get in to the Big East is to show they have the financial backing and budget to compete, hire a big time HC, and make multiple NCAA tournaments.  Can this program make multiple NCAA tournaments in the bloated A10?  I say no. 

Either get in a conference that does get multiple bids or drop down to a conference we can win every year.  Playing in the A10 is just going to leave us standing still. 

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The Big East TV contract with Fox and the sublicense to CBS and CBS Sports Network expire in '24-'25.  There is insufficient time for SLU to drop down in conferences at this point. While I understand the point although I don't agree with it, time now is too much of the essence to be switching conferences. What we are seeing is the conference realigments occur when those TV contracts are expiring. 

2023 Conference NET's:  Big East 4, Mountain West 5, WCC 8, American (AAC) 9, C-USA 10, WAC 11, A10 12, MVC 15, Horizon 21.  

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2 hours ago, thetorch said:

Whose perception?  A fan?  From past history this doesn't play into their choices.

Creighton went from the MVC to the Big East.

Butler was in the A10, I fact checked myself, for all of 10 months before the Big East scooped them up.  They announced they were leaving for the Big East in March, before the basketball season was even over.  That means they were negotiating with the BE before or right at the start of the A10 season.  They were under consideration before they played a single possesion in the A10.  Indicates to me that had they stayed in the horizon they would have also joined the BE.

There are several reasons why the A10 can't rise again.  Butler, Xavier, Temple, we lost the best programs in the conference and replaced them with marginal programs.  The conference is bloated and watered down and has been getting worse and worse for the last decade.  There is nothing trending on an upward scale.  The A10 is no longer the best non P-6 leage, it isn't 2nd or 3rd either.

Why are we clinging to a 1 bid conference because it is perceived as slightly better than the MVC or Horizon?

SLU's recipe to get in to the Big East is to show they have the financial backing and budget to compete, hire a big time HC, and make multiple NCAA tournaments.  Can this program make multiple NCAA tournaments in the bloated A10?  I say no. 

Either get in a conference that does get multiple bids or drop down to a conference we can win every year.  Playing in the A10 is just going to leave us standing still. 

Sorry but dropping down does not make you more attractive. There is no reason the A-10 can’t rise again. Will they? Time will tell. I know we are talking about entry to the BE but I much prefer playing like minded schools than the Evansville’s of the MVC. 

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59 minutes ago, willie said:

Sorry but dropping down does not make you more attractive. There is no reason the A-10 can’t rise again. Will they? Time will tell. I know we are talking about entry to the BE but I much prefer playing like minded schools than the Evansville’s of the MVC. 

I think making multiple NCAAs will make you more attractive.

I just gave you the resason.  The best teams left.  The teams left in this conference can all make the NCAA at some point in the next 20 years, but outside of VCU we don't have a team in the conference who has had consistent sustained success over the last15-20 seasons.  That is what makes multi bid leagues.  

This is not directed just at you willie but I hear this like minded school thing with A10 schools?  I count 2 like minded schools in the A10, again Dayton & VCU.  There are no others.  The rest of the league plays in HS gyms with underpaid coaches.  How are they like minded?  How is LaSalle like us?  They have a pool below their court and their coach is older than Biden.  Davidson?  They play in a poor HS gym, their locker rooms look like the facilities at a truck stop.  I can go on and on.  Dayton and VCU are the only teams in our conference that are comparable to SLU athletic department spending and facilities.  The A10 is not comprised of like minded schools.

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23 minutes ago, thetorch said:

I think making multiple NCAAs will make you more attractive.

I just gave you the resason.  The best teams left.  The teams left in this conference can all make the NCAA at some point in the next 20 years, but outside of VCU we don't have a team in the conference who has had consistent sustained success over the last15-20 seasons.  That is what makes multi bid leagues.  

This is not directed just at you willie but I hear this like minded school thing with A10 schools?  I count 2 like minded schools in the A10, again Dayton & VCU.  There are no others.  The rest of the league plays in HS gyms with underpaid coaches.  How are they like minded?  How is LaSalle like us?  They have a pool below their court and their coach is older than Biden.  Davidson?  They play in a poor HS gym, their locker rooms look like the facilities at a truck stop.  I can go on and on.  Dayton and VCU are the only teams in our conference that are comparable to SLU athletic department spending and facilities.  The A10 is not comprised of like minded schools.

How is St. Joe -Fordam-St Bonnie’s-Loyola not like us? The only true outlier I see is U Mass . And of course those schools left,because the BE came calling. Temple because  they thought the could play football. Also I think Richmond is a lot like us except it costs a lot more. We are where we need to be until the Beast comes calling. 

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The A10 has more like minded institutions in terms of mission, fellow Jesuit schools, Catholic schools, and private schools, to wit:

Jesuit (Catholic) Universitites (4):  Loyola Chicago, Fordham, St. Joseph's, and SLU;

Other Catholic Universities (4):  Dayton (Marianist), Duquesne (Spiritan), St. Bonaventure (Franciscan), LaSalle (Christian Brothers);

Other Private Universities (3):  George Washington, Richmond, Davidson (Presbyterian);

The A10 has four (4) public universities of its fifteen (15) members:  Massachusetts, Rhode Island, VCU, George Mason.

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4 minutes ago, Bay Area Billiken said:

The A10 has more like minded institutions in terms of mission, fellow Jesuit schools, Catholic schools, and private schools, to wit:

Jesuit (Catholic) Universitites (4):  Loyola Chicago, Fordham, St. Joseph's, and SLU;

Other Catholic Universities (4):  Dayton (Marianist), Duquesne (Spiritan), St. Bonaventure (Franciscan), LaSalle (Christian Brothers);

Other Private Universities (3):  George Washington, Richmond, Davidson (Presbyterian);

The A10 has four (4) public universities of its fifteen (15) members:  Massachusetts, Rhode Island, VCU, George Mason.

Thanks for doing my work. 

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8 minutes ago, Bay Area Billiken said:

The A10 has more like minded institutions in terms of mission, fellow Jesuit schools, Catholic schools, and private schools, to wit:

Jesuit (Catholic) Universitites (4):  Loyola Chicago, Fordham, St. Joseph's, and SLU;

Other Catholic Universities (4):  Dayton (Marianist), Duquesne (Spiritan), St. Bonaventure (Franciscan), LaSalle (Christian Brothers);

Other Private Universities (3):  George Washington, Richmond, Davidson (Presbyterian);

The A10 has four (4) public universities of its fifteen (15) members:  Massachusetts, Rhode Island, VCU, George Mason.

None of that has anything to do with basketball and athletics.

That is why the like minded argument has little to no merit.

We want to play big time college basketball. Most "like minded" schools can't, won't, or don't put up the money to do so. 

So in fact they are not like minded at all. 

Our Jesuit values had us spend over 100 million dollars on Chaifetz and addons to it. Half of the A10 would kill to play their games in our practice facility.

Dayton and VCU are the only like minded schools in our conference. Repeating false narratives Billikens have used to fool ourselves into thinking the A10 is a good conference for the last 20 years won't change that.

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15 minutes ago, thetorch said:

None of that has anything to do with basketball and athletics.

That is why the like minded argument has little to no merit.

We want to play big time college basketball. Most "like minded" schools can't, won't, or don't put up the money to do so. 

So in fact they are not like minded at all. 

Our Jesuit values had us spend over 100 million dollars on Chaifetz and addons to it. Half of the A10 would kill to play their games in our practice facility.

Dayton and VCU are the only like minded schools in our conference. Repeating false narratives Billikens have used to fool ourselves into thinking the A10 is a good conference for the last 20 years won't change that.

But your whole point seems to be if we win the MVC every year the BE  will come running. For the most part Conferences try to pick like minded schools. (you don’t have to come back with exceptions)The big 10 is not going to invite Texas A&M. . And Yes the A-10 is a much better league over the past 20 years than the MVC and will be again this year. 

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1 hour ago, thetorch said:

None of that has anything to do with basketball and athletics.

That is why the like minded argument has little to no merit.

We want to play big time college basketball. Most "like minded" schools can't, won't, or don't put up the money to do so. 

So in fact they are not like minded at all. 

Our Jesuit values had us spend over 100 million dollars on Chaifetz and addons to it. Half of the A10 would kill to play their games in our practice facility.

Dayton and VCU are the only like minded schools in our conference. Repeating false narratives Billikens have used to fool ourselves into thinking the A10 is a good conference for the last 20 years won't change that.

This is still college sports. Having members in major cities has given the A10 much better TV access than the MVC and the Horizon. The status of the universities does matter.

I didn’t say the A10 is “a good conference.” It used to be pretty good, received 6 NCAA Tourney bids in ‘13. But Temple and Xavier left, and the A10 has been in regression. However, the A10 is still better than the MVC and significantly better than the remnant of the Horizon. The latter is not even close. 

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What gets us in the Big East?

Winning 4 straight Valley or Horizon titles?

Finishing on average 4th in the A10 over the same timespan?

I'm taking the titles every time. The BE is too. Nothing else changes. They can't take our facilities, budget or market away from us. 

The A10 has done nothing for us, equally we've done nothing for them. Time to cut our losses. We have a limited time frame. We need to be in a major conference NOW if we want to stay relevant. Staying in this A10 purgatory will lead us down the road to playing in the same conference as UMSL.

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6 minutes ago, thetorch said:

What gets us in the Big East?

Winning 4 straight Valley or Horizon titles?

Finishing on average 4th in the A10 over the same timespan?

I'm taking the titles every time. The BE is too. Nothing else changes. They can't take our facilities, budget or market away from us. 

The A10 has done nothing for us, equally we've done nothing for them. Time to cut our losses. We have a limited time frame. We need to be in a major conference NOW if we want to stay relevant. Staying in this A10 purgatory will lead us down the road to playing in the same conference as UMSL.

Is there another conference we could go to outside of the Big East that would be seen as better than the A10 that would accept us given the fact that we don’t have a football program? If so, please name it. All the conference realignment that has gone on has been football driven. 
 

That having been said, we are now in a one bid league (the A10). The way to get into a better conference is to concentrate on getting that one bid every year, and hopefully doing some damage in the NCAA every once in a while when we get there. 

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1 hour ago, thetorch said:

What gets us in the Big East?

Winning 4 straight Valley or Horizon titles?

Finishing on average 4th in the A10 over the same timespan?

I'm taking the titles every time. The BE is too. Nothing else changes. They can't take our facilities, budget or market away from us. 

The A10 has done nothing for us, equally we've done nothing for them. Time to cut our losses. We have a limited time frame. We need to be in a major conference NOW if we want to stay relevant. Staying in this A10 purgatory will lead us down the road to playing in the same conference as UMSL.

We aren't winning 4 straight horizon or mvc titles if we are finishing 4th in the a10 lol

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38 minutes ago, RiseOfTheBillikens said:

We aren't winning 4 straight horizon or mvc titles if we are finishing 4th in the a10 lol

But but but I was just told how the A10 is light years better than those leagues and it would be a huge step down to be in them. Surely a top 4 finish in the A10 equals Horizon and MVC titles.

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I understand thetorch's point ...... but I would offer that torch is comparing 'basketball like-minded' programs and willie and Bay are coming from 'institutionally like-minded' schools.

I also don't think going down to the MVC puts us automatically in the running for one title, let alone three or four.  You still have to have a talented roster to do that.  That's why I look forward to the coming year ---- just what hath Ford wrought?

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9 hours ago, Cowboy II said:

-the conference we are in isn't the problem, the problem is our lack of success to make us attractive

This is the most important thing, period. SLU would be in consideration if the BE is told to expand by their TV partners if men’s basketball won consistently at a much higher level. Unfortunately the performance the last decade hasn’t indicated we’d be anything more than DePaul in the BE. The A-10 is, for better or worse, the best fit for now. 

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13 hours ago, RiseOfTheBillikens said:

We aren't winning 4 straight horizon or mvc titles if we are finishing 4th in the a10 lol

Yeah this is the point. The A10 champ and MVC champ are generally about equal most years. A 4th place team in the A10 is a lot like a 4th place team in the MVC. 

There may be an interesting argument about maintaining the same budget but cutting travel expenses by 50%+ and how that could be reinvested into programs via recruiting, facilities, amenities, etc.

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