GDT: Bethune

[3star_recruit]

1 minute ago, billiken_roy said:

3 star you arent really addressing my concern.    my problem with collins is his propensity to dribble into the trees with no way out.   once he learns not to do this or develops enough power to successfully get through the forrest and score or pass out, then we got something.  until then that assist to turnover ratio is somewhat misleading imo.   i believe he will be a very good point guard by the time he leaves slu, but he is still a freshman learning.    

No disagreement there.  Just pointing out that he's an above average point guard now, even with the overpenetration.  

[glazedandconfused]

Would anyone have guessed the best Asst/TO ratio of the century (excluding guys with like 3 assist and 0 turnovers) is Kyle Cassity his junior year? 2.5 with about 3.4 assists per game.

 

FWIW, YC has the same Asst/To ratio right now that JGood had his freshman year. 

[cgeldmacher]

Funny moment from Section 102.  When Hargrove was down and being attended to, and the process was taking a little longer that usual, his mother, who regularly sits behind my seats, yelled very loudly in a then quiet Chaifetz, "Get up, TJ!"  She said it in a very annoyed mom sort of way.

[wgstl]

re-watched the game finally. weird game, pope is a beast.  At first I hated his banter, but now i actually enjoyed it.  He even helped French up after he had talked smack minutes before. 

 

Love how aggressive Perkins was.  He really wanted to make it on sports center last night. 

 

 

[Slu let the dogs out?]

Ugly game. A win is a win. I actually enjoyed the jawing between #10 on BC and, well, almost every single Billiken player on the court. #10 was doing a lot of talking during the tv timeouts. Think he had a smile on his face the entire game.

[billikenfan05]

7 minutes ago, Slu let the dogs out? said:

Ugly game. A win is a win. I actually enjoyed the jawing between #10 on BC and, well, almost every single Billiken player on the court. #10 was doing a lot of talking during the tv timeouts. Think he had a smile on his face the entire game.

If he wants to take a grad transfer we could use him lol. we'd never give up an offensive rebound.

[wgstl]

4 minutes ago, billikenfan05 said:

If he wants to take a grad transfer we could use him lol. we'd never give up an offensive rebound.

not to keep talking about him, but he reminded me of Gordon. 

[basebill123]

Not sure if mentioned but easily the biggest disappointment(blue font) is that French dropped to 9.7 rebounds a game, no longer averaging a double double.

[billikenbill]

Bills played the final 17:01, 27 possessions, without a turnover. When even on your better days, where you'd average 5 turnovers per 27 possessions, that's exceptional.

[Sheltiedave]

3 hours ago, billiken_roy said:

3 star you arent really addressing my concern.    my problem with collins is his propensity to dribble into the trees with no way out.   once he learns not to do this or develops enough power to successfully get through the forrest and score or pass out, then we got something.  until then that assist to turnover ratio is somewhat misleading imo.   i believe he will be a very good point guard by the time he leaves slu, but he is still a freshman learning.    

Roy, as a freshman Goodwin had a assists/turnover ratio of 4/2.2.

Collins currently has a ratio of 5.8/3.2.

Collins has 40 turnovers this season, Goodwin has 36.

Ford does not have the luxury of teaching two 3 pt sharpshooters where to be to receive a Collins dime at the 3 pt line; this OOC has been spent figuring out who the 3 pt shooters are, and getting them to play defense so they can get playing time. As familiarity grows, and recognition that trees are trees, Collins drive turnovers will shrink.

Collins has had to overpenetrate because his primary passing targets(F & G) are smaller than their defenders, but they are great at cleaning up weak side rebounds. He never is going to overpower the bigs, he just is not that package until he welds on 15 pounds of muscle.

With Collins playing, we are scoring 5.7 ppg more, have 1.7 more Apg, and we have two players hitting a double double. And we are 11-2. Collins has the most assists per game of anyone this side of the year 2000.

I have yet to see another freshman pg in Collins class who would put us in better shape than we are. I would wager the last two pgs who had the same passing ability as him would be H Waldman and Carlos Martinez, and that covers 50 years. 

[billiken_roy]

9 minutes ago, Sheltiedave said:

 

Collins has had to overpenetrate because his primary passing targets(F & G) are smaller than their defenders, but they are great at cleaning up weak side rebounds. He never is going to overpower the bigs, he just is not that package until he welds on 15 pounds of muscle.

 

so it is his teamates fault that collins drives wild to the basket and gets caught in the trees and has to put up wild shots that get blocked or missed or turn into turnovers.   got it.  i'm learning so much.

[glazedandconfused]

5 minutes ago, Sheltiedave said:

Roy, as a freshman Goodwin had a assists/turnover ratio of 4/2.2.

Collins currently has a ratio of 5.8/3.2.

Collins has 40 turnovers this season, Goodwin has 36.

Ford does not have the luxury of teaching two 3 pt sharpshooters where to be to receive a Collins dime at the 3 pt line; this OOC has been spent figuring out who the 3 pt shooters are, and getting them to play defense so they can get playing time. As familiarity grows, and recognition that trees are trees, Collins drive turnovers will shrink.

Collins has had to overpenetrate because his primary passing targets(F & G) are smaller than their defenders, but they are great at cleaning up weak side rebounds. He never is going to overpower the bigs, he just is not that package until he welds on 15 pounds of muscle.

With Collins playing, we are scoring 5.7 ppg more, have 1.7 more Apg, and we have two players hitting a double double. And we are 11-2. Collins has the most assists per game of anyone this side of the year 2000.

I have yet to see another freshman pg in Collins class who would put us in better shape than we are. I would wager the last two pgs who had the same passing ability as him would be H Waldman and Carlos Martinez, and that covers 50 years. 

The idea that our 3 point shooters are hurting Yuri's assist #s is hilarious. This is the first year in a long time that we have multiple legit 3 point shooters. You're saying he would be better off with the experienced trio of Wiley/Isabell/Bess combo hitting like a combined 30% of their 3s?

Jimerson/Jacobs/Weaver make the game a lot easier for Collins. If they didn't provide a spacing/shooting threat, Collins would be driving into 2-3 guys everytime. 

 

[NashvilleBilliken]

In my 20 years of closely following the Bills, Collins is the best point I have seen put on a uniform. Not saying we haven't had great players who played the point....but Yuri, IMO, is the best true point guard we have seen. Everybody can improve themselves, but the tone of a few seem to be that he is serviceable until he improves "X"....when it should be he is freaking awesome and if he improves "X" then we have a top 10 PG. He has made everybody around him better. Dare I say it, but even Jordan Goodwin has become a better PG watching Yuri play. Some of those passes by JGood yesterday were non-existent the first 2+ years.

[glazedandconfused]

Just now, NashvilleBilliken said:

In my 20 years of closely following the Bills, Collins is the best point I have seen put on a uniform.

Jett, Kwamain, Lisch, Goodwin, Fisher etc... I mean Yuri is good, but he is not by any means the best SLU PG of the last 20 years. Obviously he is still a freshman so he could very well pass these guys, but not yet. 

[Sheltiedave]

Roy, I am saying our two best bigs are French and Goodwin. 
Follow this, it is difficult

Both French and Goodwin are athletic and are better at slipping into openings, rather than setting up and presenting in the lane. A small penetrating guard has a chance to make an entry pass to a presenter, or hike a shot that an offensive player can rebound and put back. Collins’ teammates are better at Option 2 than Option 1 right now.

Glazed, in no way did I say Collins is losing assists because our 3 pt shooters suck. I did say much of the early season practice time has been spent teaching new players defense, defense, defense. We are a long time away from our pgs and shooters innately know where the best outcomes lie, and when to make cuts, brush screens, curls, and fakes. Now our best shooter is gone for the season, and it will take more time for Collins to learn a new set of best tendencies. It takes a full year of play to get comfortable. Straw men arguments over development are silly. 

[johnbj14]

Yuri is good, but not as good as he will be at the end of his time here. Does that cover everything? The same back and forth since the start of the season. Just sit back and enjoy a young player as he gets better. Go Billikens. 

[3star_recruit]

1 minute ago, glazedandconfused said:

Jett, Kwamain, Lisch, Goodwin, Fisher etc... I mean Yuri is good, but he is not by any means the best SLU PG of the last 20 years. Obviously he is still a freshman so he could very well pass these guys, but not yet. 

Agreed. Yuri is, however, the best passing Billiken guard in the last 30 years.

[glazedandconfused]

11 minutes ago, Sheltiedave said:

Roy, I am saying our two best bigs are French and Goodwin. 
Follow this, it is difficult

Both French and Goodwin are athletic and are better at slipping into openings, rather than setting up and presenting in the lane. A small penetrating guard has a chance to make an entry pass to a presenter, or hike a shot that an offensive player can rebound and put back. Collins’ teammates are better at Option 2 than Option 1 right now.

Glazed, in no way did I say Collins is losing assists because our 3 pt shooters suck. I did say much of the early season practice time has been spent teaching new players defense, defense, defense. We are a long time away from our pgs and shooters innately know where the best outcomes lie, and when to make cuts, brush screens, curls, and fakes. Now our best shooter is gone for the season, and it will take more time for Collins to learn a new set of best tendencies. It takes a full year of play to get comfortable. Straw men arguments over development are silly. 

You started a paragraph with a straw man argument and ended with a claim that straw man arguments are silly.

On another note, it's cool we have people from all over the world on this message board. 

 

 

[dlarry]

Yuri needs to drive into the trees every once in a while just to show defenses he can.

I rarely see him get  down there and have no place to go. He either tries to dish to a teammate or draw contact and get to the line.
He always has a plan of what he is going to do. It might not work out but he is always thinking ahead.

 Collins has things he can improve on but any complaints are basically nitpicking.

I wasn’t super enthused about his signing but I was wrong. The guy is incredible and will only get better. He has exceeded my expectations.

Assist to turnover ratios are not misleading it’s math.

[RUBillsFan]

1 hour ago, dlarry said:

Yuri needs to drive into the trees every once in a while just to show defenses he can.

I rarely see him get  down there and have no place to go. He either tries to dish to a teammate or draw contact and get to the line.
He always has a plan of what he is going to do. It might not work out but he is always thinking ahead.

 Collins has things he can improve on but any complaints are basically nitpicking.

I wasn’t super enthused about his signing but I was wrong. The guy is incredible and will only get better. He has exceeded my expectations.

Assist to turnover ratios are not misleading it’s math.

I loved seeing Yuri hit that pull up / floater from just inside the FT line in the 1st half vs K-State.  If he can hit that shot it opens things up on the drives so much more because a big may have to come out further to help on him which gives him the option to dish to an open big down low and gives French / Goodwin a better chance at an offensive board.

[almaman]

4 hours ago, cgeldmacher said:

Funny moment from Section 102.  When Hargrove was down and being attended to, and the process was taking a little longer that usual, his mother, who regularly sits behind my seats, yelled very loudly in a then quiet Chaifetz, "Get up, TJ!"  She said it in a very annoyed mom sort of way.

needs a gif

[billiken_roy]

5 hours ago, NashvilleBilliken said:

In my 20 years of closely following the Bills, Collins is the best point I have seen put on a uniform. Not saying we haven't had great players who played the point....but Yuri, IMO, is the best true point guard we have seen. Everybody can improve themselves, but the tone of a few seem to be that he is serviceable until he improves "X"....when it should be he is freaking awesome and if he improves "X" then we have a top 10 PG. He has made everybody around him better. Dare I say it, but even Jordan Goodwin has become a better PG watching Yuri play. Some of those passes by JGood yesterday were non-existent the first 2+ years.

This is wrong.  You need to go back and rewatch Goodwin 's triple double game and most of his freshman season

[slufanskip]

1 hour ago, billiken_roy said:

This is wrong.  You need to go back and rewatch Goodwin 's triple double game and most of his freshman season

Are you just saying he made very good passes as frosh or are you saying he was or even is as good a passer as Collins? 

[NashvilleBilliken]

7 hours ago, glazedandconfused said:

Jett, Kwamain, Lisch, Goodwin, Fisher etc... I mean Yuri is good, but he is not by any means the best SLU PG of the last 20 years. Obviously he is still a freshman so he could very well pass these guys, but not yet. 

I agree that those you named are very good, if not better. But from a pure PG perspective, I really like Yuri. All those guys can and do play the 2.  Yuri never will. Maybe I'm a purist but I still say he is the best pure pg I have seen here.

[billiken_roy]

5 hours ago, slufanskip said:

Are you just saying he made very good passes as frosh or are you saying he was or even is as good a passer as Collins?