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Off topic: Screw Stan Kroenke


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2 minutes ago, Bay Area Billiken said:

Where is the MLS considered vis-a-vis the European leagues?

I'm not a big professional soccer fan, do peruse occasionally.  I know there's the English Premier League, and teams can be relegated into the league below, like a AAA league, and isn't there one below that?

I'd like to have that relegation system in MLB.  That is a soccer-centric idea I do support.

 

MLS is ranked as the 14th best league, between the Belgium and Turkish leagues. Also midway between Englands 2nd league and 3rd league.

 

And England has like 6 league?

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24 minutes ago, wgstl said:

MLS is ranked as the 14th best league, between the Belgium and Turkish leagues. Also midway between Englands 2nd league and 3rd league.

 

And England has like 6 league?

You state a very specific 14th best league in the world with a certainty even though it is highly subjective. I have seen rankings that put it anywhere between 7 and 15. Ironically, the valuation of teams in MLS is actually greater than nearly all the teams in Europe outside of the Champions League regulars. 

Soccer leagues are difficult to rate. There are 5 leagues in Europe (England, Spain, Germany, Italy, and France) that are universally considered the top leagues in the world, and the English Premier League is generally considered the top league and generates the most money. However, the top teams in MLS actually have bigger budgets and nicer facilities than the bottom teams in France, Italy, and Spain. For example, Venezia (in Venice) plays in a largely makeshift stadium that only seats 7,400, but AC Milan plays in the same league with a 75,000 seat stadium. 

MLS is unique in that the teams can spend unlimited amounts on 3 players, about a million dollars on 2 players, and then only has $5 million to spend on the rest of the rosters. That makes for some really disjointed teams and talent levels, and makes it very difficult to compare the league and its teams to others in the world.

The interest level of MLS teams in some markets such as Atlanta, Austin, KC, Seattle, and Portland is comparable and better to teams in the other major sports. However, the teams in NYC and a few other notable markets have really struggled to keep a fan base. MLS has some of the best facilities and wealthiest owners of all the leagues in the world and has all the resources and potential to be a top global league if it takes some calculated risks. The 2026 World Cup in the US is considered a critical inflection point. 

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47 minutes ago, cgeldmacher said:

For those of you that say you don't want an NFL team, think about this.  The football Cardinals left in 1987.  Most of the die hard fans of the Big Red were fans in the 70's and early 80's.  The St. Louis Rams were in their prime in the early 2000's.  Many of the people who packed the Dome during the Ram's successful run here were a generation removed from the fans that remembered Bill Bidwell leaving with the team.  When that younger crowd was in the Dome cheering on the Greatest Show on Turf, they could care less about the fact that old fart Big Red fans felt jilted by the NFL and Bill Bidwell.

Now, flash forward to us getting a new team in a year or two.  I don't think it will be any different.  Sure, there will be some, like several on this board, that will stand on principles and not ever attend another NFL game, just like those old Big Red fans.  However, the younger generation won't care at all about it and will attend games if a good product is being put out on the field.

Many of the old fans like me that were in the dome supporting the Rams were attending Big Red games in the 70’s and 80’s.

Most Big Red fans I know did not like Bidwill and liked the NFL.

I still feel when the city and the county told Bidwill you have to win before we build you a stadium was the right move.

I liked the dome because I sat outside on some nasty weather days to watch some horrible football played by the Big Red so at least I could watch bad football by the Rams in comfort.  I rode the Rams express in for several games over the years.

What the old generation fans and younger generation Rams fans have in common is that we were jilted and crapped on by the NFL and we should never trust the NFL.

Take the billions from the NFL make it hurt.

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1 hour ago, cgeldmacher said:

For those of you that say you don't want an NFL team, think about this.  The football Cardinals left in 1987.  Most of the die hard fans of the Big Red were fans in the 70's and early 80's.  The St. Louis Rams were in their prime in the early 2000's.  Many of the people who packed the Dome during the Ram's successful run here were a generation removed from the fans that remembered Bill Bidwell leaving with the team.  When that younger crowd was in the Dome cheering on the Greatest Show on Turf, they could care less about the fact that old fart Big Red fans felt jilted by the NFL and Bill Bidwell.

Now, flash forward to us getting a new team in a year or two.  I don't think it will be any different.  Sure, there will be some, like several on this board, that will stand on principles and not ever attend another NFL game, just like those old Big Red fans.  However, the younger generation won't care at all about it and will attend games if a good product is being put out on the field.

-the local governments screwed Bidwell, he tried to stay and got no cooperation hence the team is in AZ 

17 minutes ago, willie said:

Anyone still think the attorneys should get 35% of this?

-that's the deal they signed BEFORE they knew all of the things that are now known so yes, live up to a signed agreement

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47 minutes ago, Bay Area Billiken said:

Where is the MLS considered vis-a-vis the European leagues?

I'm not a big professional soccer fan, do peruse occasionally.  I know there's the English Premier League, and teams can be relegated into the league below, like a AAA league, and isn't there one below that?

I'd like to have that relegation system in MLB.  That is a soccer-centric idea I do support.

 

Probably in the 10-15 range in the world. 

 

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6 minutes ago, willie said:

You must be an attorney. There is no way they should earn 2 billion dollars  on a case. Should be a cap. 

I am not an attorney and the money they could get sounds ridiculous.  I just think we would be just like San Diego and Oakland getting nothing if it wasn't for the attorneys taking a huge risk fronting their own money on case just about everyone thought they had zero chance to win when they took it on.

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15 minutes ago, willie said:

You must be an attorney. There is no way they should earn 2 billion dollars  on a case. Should be a cap. 

I disagree Willie.   deal's a deal   

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2 hours ago, Bay Area Billiken said:

Roy, the issue with the lease was that clause inserted by then Rams President and entertainment lawyer John Shaw, that the Dome had to be kept in the top 25% of NFL stadia.  That's the clause Kroenke won on at arbitration that got the Dome lease converted into a year to year lease.

Don't allow some clause like that again.  

I have heard eagleton Added that clause and said something like. Heck I am not going to be around in 20 25 years. It was get them here at any cost

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59 minutes ago, willie said:

You must be an attorney. There is no way they should earn 2 billion dollars  on a case. Should be a cap. 

I have to believe there is some cap somewhere in that deal or at least a sliding scale where the contingency decreases at certain settlement thresholds. If not, whoever negotiated that deal for the city has no business negotiating any contract ever again. 

I don't disagree that the lawyers took a big risk and should have big upside.

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1 hour ago, dlarry said:

Do you think Kronke should be allowed out of his agreement to cover any and all legal costs? 

I don't really care - I just enjoy watching really wealthy guys squirming given that they are used to getting their way all the time.  All of their money is green.

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2 hours ago, cheeseman said:

I don't really care - I just enjoy watching really wealthy guys squirming given that they are used to getting their way all the time.  All of their money is green.

Totally agree.

I was just asking because Willie had hinted that he didn’t think the attorneys should get their 35% because of the amount they may win.

I was wondering if he felt the same way about Kronke not being made to cover everything because of the amount the NFL may be forced to pay. 

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17 hours ago, davidnark said:

You state a very specific 14th best league in the world with a certainty even though it is highly subjective. I have seen rankings that put it anywhere between 7 and 15. Ironically, the valuation of teams in MLS is actually greater than nearly all the teams in Europe outside of the Champions League regulars

Soccer leagues are difficult to rate. There are 5 leagues in Europe (England, Spain, Germany, Italy, and France) that are universally considered the top leagues in the world, and the English Premier League is generally considered the top league and generates the most money. However, the top teams in MLS actually have bigger budgets and nicer facilities than the bottom teams in France, Italy, and Spain. For example, Venezia (in Venice) plays in a largely makeshift stadium that only seats 7,400, but AC Milan plays in the same league with a 75,000 seat stadium. 

MLS is unique in that the teams can spend unlimited amounts on 3 players, about a million dollars on 2 players, and then only has $5 million to spend on the rest of the rosters. That makes for some really disjointed teams and talent levels, and makes it very difficult to compare the league and its teams to others in the world.

The interest level of MLS teams in some markets such as Atlanta, Austin, KC, Seattle, and Portland is comparable and better to teams in the other major sports. However, the teams in NYC and a few other notable markets have really struggled to keep a fan base. MLS has some of the best facilities and wealthiest owners of all the leagues in the world and has all the resources and potential to be a top global league if it takes some calculated risks. The 2026 World Cup in the US is considered a critical inflection point. 

That's because of the franchise vs club model.  Franchises can't be demoted due to poor play.  The club model allows for demotion.  Yes, this is off topic, but to those who only casually followed the European Super League, this was a bone of contention.  The Super League wanted to exempt certain clubs (Kroenke's being one of them) from relegation.  

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A few thoughts:

- I've always believed there is no way this goes to trial and will get settled. Even if it went to trial and St. Louis won big (think the $8b number that some guy on the radio said) it would be tied up in appeals for nearly ever.

- If a settlement was to happen, I just don't see it being for the $1b or more than is now being thrown around like a sure thing. Kroenke may be worth $11b but his cash liquidity is nowhere near that. Maybe he's got $100mm or so hidden in the couch cushions but nowhere near a $1b.

- So the only way he could settle a deal of that size would be a forced sale of one of his other teams. Arsenal would make the most sense given how hated he is by them and how much it's worth. I have a hard time believing this would happen, but I have to admit a forced sale of one of his other teams to pay for this payout would be amazing justice.

- My best guess is a settlement in the $250-$500mm range in the next two months. Oddly, some people will be disappointed in the size of this, despite the fact it is way more than anybody would have thought even a couple years ago.

- The lawyers will have deserved their 35% if this comes to fruition. Ain't know way this would have happened without them.

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51 minutes ago, kshoe said:

A few thoughts:

- I've always believed there is no way this goes to trial and will get settled. Even if it went to trial and St. Louis won big (think the $8b number that some guy on the radio said) it would be tied up in appeals for nearly ever.

- If a settlement was to happen, I just don't see it being for the $1b or more than is now being thrown around like a sure thing. Kroenke may be worth $11b but his cash liquidity is nowhere near that. Maybe he's got $100mm or so hidden in the couch cushions but nowhere near a $1b.

- So the only way he could settle a deal of that size would be a forced sale of one of his other teams. Arsenal would make the most sense given how hated he is by them and how much it's worth. I have a hard time believing this would happen, but I have to admit a forced sale of one of his other teams to pay for this payout would be amazing justice.

- My best guess is a settlement in the $250-$500mm range in the next two months. Oddly, some people will be disappointed in the size of this, despite the fact it is way more than anybody would have thought even a couple years ago.

- The lawyers will have deserved their 35% if this comes to fruition. Ain't know way this would have happened without them.

-it seems like he thrives on this, enjoys it

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1 hour ago, kshoe said:

A few thoughts:

- I've always believed there is no way this goes to trial and will get settled. Even if it went to trial and St. Louis won big (think the $8b number that some guy on the radio said) it would be tied up in appeals for nearly ever.

- If a settlement was to happen, I just don't see it being for the $1b or more than is now being thrown around like a sure thing. Kroenke may be worth $11b but his cash liquidity is nowhere near that. Maybe he's got $100mm or so hidden in the couch cushions but nowhere near a $1b.

- So the only way he could settle a deal of that size would be a forced sale of one of his other teams. Arsenal would make the most sense given how hated he is by them and how much it's worth. I have a hard time believing this would happen, but I have to admit a forced sale of one of his other teams to pay for this payout would be amazing justice.

- My best guess is a settlement in the $250-$500mm range in the next two months. Oddly, some people will be disappointed in the size of this, despite the fact it is way more than anybody would have thought even a couple years ago.

- The lawyers will have deserved their 35% if this comes to fruition. Ain't know way this would have happened without them.

Kroenke’s wife has $9 billion of her own.  Maybe she will loan him a little in order to settle.

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55 minutes ago, kshoe said:

A few thoughts:

- I've always believed there is no way this goes to trial and will get settled. Even if it went to trial and St. Louis won big (think the $8b number that some guy on the radio said) it would be tied up in appeals for nearly ever.

- If a settlement was to happen, I just don't see it being for the $1b or more than is now being thrown around like a sure thing. Kroenke may be worth $11b but his cash liquidity is nowhere near that. Maybe he's got $100mm or so hidden in the couch cushions but nowhere near a $1b.

- So the only way he could settle a deal of that size would be a forced sale of one of his other teams. Arsenal would make the most sense given how hated he is by them and how much it's worth. I have a hard time believing this would happen, but I have to admit a forced sale of one of his other teams to pay for this payout would be amazing justice.

- My best guess is a settlement in the $250-$500mm range in the next two months. Oddly, some people will be disappointed in the size of this, despite the fact it is way more than anybody would have thought even a couple years ago.

- The lawyers will have deserved their 35% if this comes to fruition. Ain't know way this would have happened without them.

Agree this won't go to trial. Disagree on the settlement amount for two reasons:

- STL is asking for $1B+ which is not an exaggeration. The actual amount of damages may be closer to $2-3B which includes part of the appreciation of the Rams' value since leaving STL. This has been allowed by the circuit court judge. And this is all before punitive damages. If the jury believes the damage has been particularly egregious, it could be multiplied 5-10X.  Yes, it would be appealed. But STL has way more leverage than $250-500M.

- If the ESPN reporting of the other day is correct (and I have no reason to believe it is not,) there already has been an offer made by the defendants to settle at numbers considerably above your guess -- at just under $1B and over $1B. And while Team STL is not commenting on this, it is obvious they've turned it down.

 

As to whether Kroenke will have enough liquidity to pay (if we win,) and what he'd have to sell, there's an open issue as to exactly what costs he agreed to indemnify for his cartel partners. Is it legal costs only? (ESPN reported it to be 8 figures currently. Given 5 years of legal expenses and about 65 defendants, good guess would be $50-75M+.)  Or is it legal costs PLUS actual and punitive damages (likely $1B+.)  If legal costs only, he's plenty liquid -- though he's obviously trying to weasel out of it. If it's ALL costs, yes, he'd have a problem on his hands. As I read the ESPN story, I believe it is legal costs only. But I welcome attorneys on the board to weigh in on this -- and whether my ballpark estimate is in the neighborhood.

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