Fall 2017 allegations against unnamed players (aka Situation 2)

[brianstl]

6 minutes ago, CBFan said:

 

I have been wondering why the players if they think they have been wronged why would they not transfer, these two posts is the answer to my question.

 

I think the players have to wait for SLU to expel them if they want to be eligible to play at a D1 school next season.  For them to be eligible to play next season at another school D1 school would take a waiver from the NCAA.  They aren't going to have a chance to get a waiver unless they can't play at their current school.

[CBFan]

8 minutes ago, brianstl said:

I think the players have to wait for SLU to expel them if they want to be eligible to play at a D1 school next season.  For them to be eligible to play next season at another school D1 school would take a waiver from the NCAA.  They aren't going to have a chance to get a waiver unless they can't play at their current school.

This whole situation is unreal Brian and I get your frustration and seems that SLU is wide open to a lawsuit.

[Pistol]

8 minutes ago, brianstl said:

S1 wasn't a Title IX investigation.  The "Dear Colleague" letter didn't go out until 2011 and that is when Title IX got involved with on campus sexual assaults.  Smith and Johnson announced they were transferring the last week of April 2010.  That said, the case was reported to SLU and the police the weekend after that and Jordan and Smith didn't decide which schools they were transferring to until after that.  Jordan for example announced he was going to Ball St. at that end of May.  Smith announced he was going to Ohio shortly after that.

Just did a refresher on the timeline:

The incident itself was on May 1, 2010. The woman reported it as soon as she left, and the players were arrested and released. They continued to live on campus and take classes and participate in all team activities. Smith and Jordan - who, as you say, announced their transfer plans in April - moved out in May.

Reed and Mitchell were called before the student conduct committee in September. The initial process wrapped up in October. On 10/13, they were suspended. A few days later, it was announced that they were no longer enrolled in school. On January 6, 2011, Mitchell was readmitted. Later that week, Reed was readmitted with a list of conditions to be met, and he was banned from team activities for the remainder of the year (and obviously never returned). At the time, the possibility of Mitchell playing that season was still on the table, but he opted to sit the rest of the year and still have three years of eligibility starting the following season.

The SLU internal process was totally different back then. Title IX has also evolved, and it is correct that the 2010 situation was not a Title IX investigation.

[Pistol]

1 hour ago, Pistol said:

Just did a refresher on the timeline:

The incident itself was on May 1, 2010. The woman reported it as soon as she left, and the players were arrested and released. They continued to live on campus and take classes and participate in all team activities. Smith and Jordan - who, as you say, announced their transfer plans in April - moved out in May.

Reed and Mitchell were called before the student conduct committee in September. The initial process wrapped up in October. On 10/13, they were suspended. A few days later, it was announced that they were no longer enrolled in school. On January 6, 2011, Mitchell was readmitted. Later that week, Reed was readmitted with a list of conditions to be met, and he was banned from team activities for the remainder of the year (and obviously never returned). At the time, the possibility of Mitchell playing that season was still on the table, but he opted to sit the rest of the year and still have three years of eligibility starting the following season.

The SLU internal process was totally different back then. Title IX has also evolved, and it is correct that the 2010 situation was not a Title IX investigation.

Reflecting on this a little bit:

-There's no sign Biondi ever got involved in 2010, although the process from the time they went before the board until their punishment was much shorter. He may have later gotten involved when they were readmitted, but there's nothing to prove that from what I can tell, so I'm not sure who ultimately made that decision. Majerus never fought the school's decision, so Biondi never had to worry about keeping the head coach on board. So when we ask whether Biondi would've been more involved than Pestello this time around, it's hard to say. He wasn't last time, but it's not quite apples to apples. Given the difference in their demeanors, it's certainly hard to imagine him giving one statement 60-something days into the process and saying nothing else at any point.

-What stands out to me as most relevant with regard to our players now was the choice that Mitchell would not play the second half of the 2010-2011 season after being readmitted. He could have, and he would've graduated on the same time frame he expected initially (i.e. class of 2012), but opted for three more full seasons and wrapped up in 2013 instead. That decision was made shortly after he was readmitted (1/6/11) but before classes started, so that's basically this week. I would have to think that since we're at that point and still don't have a decision, we won't see any of these guys suit up this season.

Assuming all three return, this means Bishop (because he got the medical redshirt last season) and Graves (because he played one semester at BC) would have three full years of eligibility left and Henriquez would have two full seasons. This has a massive impact on the scholarship chart, which heading into this season, we thought would look like this for the next two years:

2017-2018

Seniors: Roby, Hines, Anthony

Juniors: Henriquez, Bess, Foreman

Sophomores: Johnson, Welmer*, Graves, Bishop

Freshmen: Goodwin, French

2018-2019

Seniors: Henriquez, Bess, Foreman

Juniors: Johnson, Welmer*, Graves, Bishop, Santos

Sophomores: Goodwin, French

Freshmen: Gordon, Thatch, Pearson

But now could look like this in 2018-2019:

Seniors: Bess, Foreman

Juniors: Johnson, Welmer*, Santos, Henriquez

Sophomores: Goodwin, French, Graves, Bishop

Freshmen: Gordon, Thatch, Pearson

First off, this means one less scholarship to use in the class of 2019 because we can only promise the Bess and Foreman spots if Henriquez has two years left. The same effect happens to the 2020 class, which would offer up five scholarships as initially expected but now be four, and the 2021 class goes from the two (French and Goodwin) scholarships to four. Yes, this comes with the normal disclaimer that there are transfers likely in most seasons.

Compounding the question marks here is that the staff can't recruit right now with any idea of how this is actually going to play out. They might have the scholarship chart above, or they might have this in 2018-2019 if the players are gone:

Seniors: Bess, Foreman

Juniors: Johnson, Welmer*, Santos

Sophomores: Goodwin, French

Freshmen: Gordon, Thatch, Pearson

In which case they'd have three open scholarships to use in 2019 if they wanted. How are you supposed to effectively recruit high school juniors right now if you have anywhere from two to five scholarships to give?

*The above is also based on the assumption that Welmer plays this season, which looks less likely with every passing day. His situation is yet another complication and could obviously throw all the math above off by one.

[wgstl]

2 minutes ago, Pistol said:

 

But now could look like this in 2018-2019:

Seniors: Bess, Foreman

Juniors: Johnson, Welmer*, Santos, Henriquez

Sophomores: Goodwin, French, Graves, Bishop

Freshmen: Gordon, Thatch, Pearson

 

Time to heat the final four talk up again?

[NextYearBill]

3 minutes ago, wgstl said:

Time to heat the final four talk up again?

SLU aint doing shite anytime soon 

[JMM28]

4 minutes ago, Pistol said:

Assuming all three return, this means Bishop (because he got the medical redshirt last season) and Graves (because he played one semester at BC) would have three full years of eligibility left - just like Mitchell did - and Henriquez would have two full seasons. This has a massive impact on the scholarship chart, which heading into this season, we thought would look like this for the next two years:

 

Graves is the easiest decision to me. He has never used a redshirt year and his scenario would be similar to Kwamain. Yes it would suck to be out 3 straight semesters of games, but having an extra year instead of a handful of games is a no brainer long term for him, plus an opportunity to work on a graduate degree if he wants. 

Bishop is tough because he would have to apply for a 6th year waiver to complete his 4th year of eligibility if he wanted to sit out the rest of this year. There was a recent case where someone was granted this waiver after being cleared of wrong doing by an investigation. I can't seem to find a link, although I also didn't try very hard. 6th years are cut and dry for medical redshirts usually, but transfers and "other" reasons get a little cloudy. 

I really think Henriquez is screwed in all of this. He used his redshirt year last year sitting out while transferring. He played 2 in Florida. Next season would be his 5th year of enrollment. I am not sure if there are any cases like this out there. The rules define a transfer redshirt year as "within a students control" as opposed to medical, hardship, and others as "out of a students control" which is the criteria to get the 6th year. His transfer year is really straight forward. He chose to transfer. This year would depend on the ruling from The Court of Gold Standard. If he is branded with the scarlett letter P(estello/enis) on him, I am doubtful the NCAA would hear an appeal. If he were to be cleared in the whole thing, that could be argued as out of his control. But the transfer year still comes into play and the NCAA might be a worse run organization that SLU so who knows.

Gun to my head - Adonys is in his final year of eligibility next year regardless of if he plays this year or not. And it sucks that SLU did that to him. 

[GoBills73]

Glass Half Full/Trying to Remain Optimistic (Difficult)

-We heard from Graves' dad that from this past weekend he said we'd get a decision 'in a few days'.

-We know the HO clock is running out this week on levying a decision, correct?

-The rumor from TFord/Trav that decision was coming this Thursday.

Don't we have to hear something this week?

[Quality Is Job 1]

@Pistol, this is just a quibble, but Kwamain Mitchell had already used two years of eligibility and had just two left (not three) at the time of his suspension by the school.

[Quality Is Job 1]

I know we're not supposed to degenerate into political discussions, but I really wonder what the heck got into the government's heads to convert Title IX from a regulation forcing institutions to observe gender equity to a regulation that institutions are interpreting as authority to prosecute individuals for sexual misconduct?!  It really boggles my mind how the intent has become discombobulated.

[White Pelican]

5 hours ago, TheGrandLife said:

Could move a spread of the game. 

And just why would a player on double-secret probation give a flying fuok about the game spread?

[Pistol]

15 minutes ago, Quality Is Job 1 said:

@Pistol, this is just a quibble, but Kwamain Mitchell had already used two years of eligibility and had just two left (not three) at the time of his suspension by the school.

Correct, and thanks. I edited my post.

[Pistol]

57 minutes ago, JMM28 said:

Graves is the easiest decision to me. He has never used a redshirt year and his scenario would be similar to Kwamain. Yes it would suck to be out 3 straight semesters of games, but having an extra year instead of a handful of games is a no brainer long term for him, plus an opportunity to work on a graduate degree if he wants. 

Bishop is tough because he would have to apply for a 6th year waiver to complete his 4th year of eligibility if he wanted to sit out the rest of this year. There was a recent case where someone was granted this waiver after being cleared of wrong doing by an investigation. I can't seem to find a link, although I also didn't try very hard. 6th years are cut and dry for medical redshirts usually, but transfers and "other" reasons get a little cloudy. 

I really think Henriquez is screwed in all of this. He used his redshirt year last year sitting out while transferring. He played 2 in Florida. Next season would be his 5th year of enrollment. I am not sure if there are any cases like this out there. The rules define a transfer redshirt year as "within a students control" as opposed to medical, hardship, and others as "out of a students control" which is the criteria to get the 6th year. His transfer year is really straight forward. He chose to transfer. This year would depend on the ruling from The Court of Gold Standard. If he is branded with the scarlett letter P(estello/enis) on him, I am doubtful the NCAA would hear an appeal. If he were to be cleared in the whole thing, that could be argued as out of his control. But the transfer year still comes into play and the NCAA might be a worse run organization that SLU so who knows.

Gun to my head - Adonys is in his final year of eligibility next year regardless of if he plays this year or not. And it sucks that SLU did that to him. 

Graves isn't playing this year, no brainer.

I don't see why Bishop couldn't get the waiver and get six years to do four. There is precedent. I'm guessing he'd get it.

I would think the same applies to Henriquez, but his extra year was for a transfer and not injury, so maybe not. That's a good question.

But again, another question that needs to be answered ASAP because it's impossible to plan the future of your program when you have so many players in question, and each of them with a unique set of circumstances. And given Welmer's situation, SLU could have anywhere from 2 to 6 scholarships for 2019, and that isn't including anyone choosing to transfer.

[cheeseman]

26 minutes ago, Quality Is Job 1 said:

I know we're not supposed to degenerate into political discussions, but I really wonder what the heck got into the government's heads to convert Title IX from a regulation forcing institutions to observe gender equity to a regulation that institutions are interpreting as authority to prosecute individuals for sexual misconduct?!  It really boggles my mind how the intent has become discombobulated.

This is a result of institutions/organizations not taking the sexual assault thing seriously - just trying to sweep it under the rug.  Look at Weinstein - his contract even said he could not be fired if he was sued for sexual assault  You can not tell me that his company was trying to root it out.  This is like anything else, it swings from one end to the next until people finally realize that an appropriate medium must be reached.  

[JMM28]

12 minutes ago, Pistol said:

But again, another question that needs to be answered ASAP because it's impossible to plan the future of your program when you have so many players in question, and each of them with a unique set of circumstances. And given Welmer's situation, SLU could have anywhere from 2 to 6 scholarships for 2019, and that isn't including anyone choosing to transfer.

This is the best point. That is supposed to be probably the first great year of this rebuild. Having 6 fresh guys would be a killer in that regard as well. With 2 you’re more targeted in filling needs. 6 you’re back to best available talent mode. 

[TheGrandLife]

1 hour ago, White Pelican said:

And just why would a player on double-secret probation give a flying fuok about the game spread?

Just surprised the school doesn't put a silence on it. Seem to have their hand in everything else. 

[73Billiken]

No Fred P for the last two games.  Do you think that he is pouring through the Title IX documents and trying to figure out how to extricate his a** from the situation?

[BillsBeliever!!!]

But now could look like this in 2018-2019:

Seniors: Bess, Foreman

Juniors: Johnson, Welmer*, Santos, Henriquez

Sophomores: Goodwin, French, Graves, Bishop

Freshmen: Gordon, Thatch, Pearson

 

Thats the best team in the A10 next year no doubt if it happens that way. 

One way to make us less angry at S2 is if bat happens and we go to the Sweet 16

[RUBillsFan]

10 minutes ago, BillsBeliever!!! said:

But now could look like this in 2018-2019:

Seniors: Bess, Foreman

Juniors: Johnson, Welmer*, Santos, Henriquez

Sophomores: Goodwin, French, Graves, Bishop

Freshmen: Gordon, Thatch, Pearson

 

Thats the best team in the A10 next year no doubt if it happens that way. 

One way to make us less angry at S2 is if bat happens and we go to the Sweet 16

Keep being angry.  We would have those same players on the roster next season regardless of S2, it is just that their class levels would be different.  Also, most would have played together for a full season, so team chemistry would probably be better.

Now I guess you could argue that this helps us for 2019-20 or 2020-21 because we might have some older players who otherwise would have exhausted their eligibility.  Looking that far down the road for something that is uncertain is foolish though.

[juniorbill76]

This all assumes no Situation 3.

[73Billiken]

New student handbook topics for 2018-2019 complete with hashtags for social media (I mean how else would anyone find out about topics like this?)    

#KeepYourPantsOn

#DoNotTakeYourPantsOff

 

If we have a Sit3 we may as well go Division 3 and play against WashU, Fontbonne, etc

[almaman]

21 minutes ago, juniorbill76 said:

This all assumes no Situation 3.

hoho

[cheeseman]

56 minutes ago, 73Billiken said:

No Fred P for the last two games.  Do you think that he is pouring through the Title IX documents and trying to figure out how to extricate his a** from the situation?

I noticed that also.  I was not sure if he was out of town or just hiding.

[slufan13]

Just now, cheeseman said:

I noticed that also.  I was not sure if he was out of town or just hiding.

He was up in one of the boxes against Richmond. Not sure about last night. But he likes to hide in the box and pass it off as networking with guests 

[Cowboy]

1 hour ago, slufan13 said:

He was up in one of the boxes against Richmond. Not sure about last night. But he likes to hide in the box and pass it off as networking with guests 

-I normally saw him sitting in the folding chairs on the court opposite our bench, but I have not seen him the last two games

-I also used to see him walking in the concourse, not doing that is probably a smart move at this point