2023-2024 Season

[OkieBilliken]

Since there seems to be no path towards increasing our revenue by upgrading our conference and we don’t seem to have any NIL$$  influx happening.  WTH is the long term solution?   Rejoin the Horizon and outspend everyone there?  I just threw up.  

[wgstl]

4 minutes ago, johnbj14 said:

SLU finds themselves in a classic chicken or the egg situation. Wins will bring more NIL dollars, but NIL dollars will bring more wins. If SLU made the Sweet 16 last year in your example, there would be more money. You’re right, SLU won’t fully close the gaps compared to state schools. But consistently winning at a level higher than what SLU is now will hopefully lead to more donors on the NIL side. 

This is the thing. Ford or whoever will have to coach at a level yet reached since rickma. As for Ford, I just don’t see how after 8 years he all of a sudden kicks it up a level - which he would have to do to get to where the program can strive off of NIL. 

[billikenfan05]

3 minutes ago, OkieBilliken said:

Since there seems to be no path towards increasing our revenue by upgrading our conference and we don’t seem to have any NIL$$  influx happening.  WTH is the long term solution?   Rejoin the Horizon and outspend everyone there?  I just threw up.  

You took a looooooooooooooooong leap there. Wipe the vom off your chin...

There's always a solution. It's about finding the right coach to inject life into your program, one that will accept the responsibility of starting with no NIL and inspiring its growth here. Or it's about inspiring confidence in Ford, and convincing donors to get in the NIL DeLorean and fire it up to 88. It's going to take innovation and creativity. Something the AD has shown no interest in. 

[wgstl]

2 minutes ago, OkieBilliken said:

Since there seems to be no path towards increasing our revenue by upgrading our conference and we don’t seem to have any NIL$$  influx happening.  WTH is the long term solution?   Rejoin the Horizon and outspend everyone there?  I just threw up.  

As much as I don’t want to regardless of how it helps SLU reach the tourney , @thetorch was not far off - and maybe even correct on what SLU should do. 

[wgstl]

SLU has what a ton of schools who actually want to be successful don’t have, but we either waste it, or just don’t care to use it.  It’s starting to feel like if the AD doesn’t care, why should I anymore. 

[johnbj14]

1 minute ago, wgstl said:

This is the thing. Ford or whoever will have to coach at a level yet reached since rickma. As for Ford, I just don’t see how after 8 years he all of a sudden kicks it up a level - which he would have to do to get to where the program can strive off of NIL. 

I fully agree, and think we’ve seen the ceiling of what Ford can do here. At the end of the day, he’s a coach that gives programs a high floor, but who will usually not maximize the talent on his rosters. It’s largely why he has only led 2 teams to the NCAA Tournament in the 15 years he’s been at the mid-major level. He was the same coach at OK State, but had a better conference to fall back on. 

[Lord Elrond]

5 hours ago, johnbj14 said:

Bingo. More importantly, it isn’t sustainable, because more people will adopt the mentality that this is just how things are. Either the program needs to shock everyone and have a huge year, or the house has to be cleaned. 

As I recall, plenty of people didn’t like what they saw of the direction of this program at the end of the last year and were told by the people running the program to sit down and shut up. I’m taking the first option you mentioned, waiting to be shocked by how good the program is. So let’s all hope that’s the case because there is no other option at this point, we have the coaching staff we have and the players we have and neither is going to change at this point.

[billikenfan05]

.

[Cowboy II]

-is the BVF not performing?

[JMM28]

1 hour ago, Cowboy II said:

-is the BVF not performing?

They need to get the word out there more. Share successes. Act the part. Right now no one besides posters here know or remember that group exists. They might be doing great things. They might be doing nothing. Nobody knows. 

I've submitted a 'contact us' form on their website about giving levels or info or anything 3 different times and have heard nothing. Their last tweet was in May. No facebook presence. One instagram post ever and that was in March. 

[billikenfan05]

13 minutes ago, JMM28 said:

They need to get the word out there more. Share successes. Act the part. Right now no one besides posters here know or remember that group exists. They might be doing great things. They might be doing nothing. Nobody knows. 

I've submitted a 'contact us' form on their website about giving levels or info or anything 3 different times and have heard nothing. Their last tweet was in May. No facebook presence. One instagram post ever and that was in March. 

In addition, just based on our recruiting the last 3 months, I think it's painfully obvious that the BVF isn't doing well.

 

[Lord Elrond]

1 hour ago, billikenfan05 said:

In addition, just based on our recruiting the last 3 months, I think it's painfully obvious that the BVF isn't doing well.

 

So the BVF has gone radio silent since May, and no one has noticed until now? Yeah, they’re on top of things, don’t worry…

[Brighton]

4 hours ago, wgstl said:

SLU has what a ton of schools who actually want to be successful don’t have, but we either waste it, or just don’t care to use it.  It’s starting to feel like if the AD doesn’t care, why should I anymore. 

or cry that we're the little engine that could even though we have said resources.

[thetorch]

4 hours ago, OkieBilliken said:

Since there seems to be no path towards increasing our revenue by upgrading our conference and we don’t seem to have any NIL$$  influx happening.  WTH is the long term solution?   Rejoin the Horizon and outspend everyone there?  I just threw up.  

Ding Ding Ding

Drop down in conference.  Rebuild the program organically, while lapping the field with our superior facilities and budgets.  Win multiple titles, gain more local support, attract more monied fans, then try to move up to a conference with more sustainable revenue while continuing our on court success.

We should have done this when we got kicked out of the CUSA, but we thought the A10 would keep a similar profile.  It hasn't.  SLU has tried to take short cuts to greatness through conference affiliation for decades.  Time to end this cycle.

 

[thetorch]

5 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

Recruiting has always been a strength of Coach Ford.  He went with mostly international high school school recruits for a reason.  And you did a great job of illustrating that reason.

Biggest Billiken Myth #2

I exposed the #1 myth, that we belong in the A10.  Now to tackle myth #2.

Ford's recruiting at SLU has not been a strength.  Our on court play and lack of postseason berths speak to this.  Ford's recruiting has been only slightly better than Soderberg's, and by slightly I mean .00001%.  If these recruits don't pan out this season, he is worse than Soderberg.

Ford's first group of transfers half were booted off the team setting the program back another year.  Then recruited 2 big men with past, present, and future criminal records in Santos & Gordon who played about 10 games.  He hit a HR with Goodwin & French (Goodwin was suspended for a while and almost kicked off the team don't forget).  Since then he's had Perkins & Yuri but what else?  A lot of duds (some who played well after SLU), headcases, and at best role players.

Lets look at the misses of Ford

Henriquez, Graves, Johnson, Santos, Gordon, Anthony, Wiley, Hankton, Jacobs, Ingvi, Weaver, Bell, Hargrove, Diarra, Strickland, Russell, Lorrentsson, Williams, Traore, Nesbitt, Cisse, Kramer, Rivera.... with several more candidates currently on the roster.

Almost every season we really are one player short.  Every guy he brings in for this role is a wash.  The only time it worked out has been with Isabel, that barely worked out as he was a hugely disruptive who just had enough talent to overcome his attitude, and Perkins.  The worst part is the players he recruits for the bottom of the rotation that he then runs off, or doesn't play them enough to keep them.  Several of them have done very very well at new schools.  If given the opportunity they would be upgrades over the players that replaced them.

Ford in 8 years has recruited 1 major star in Goodwin, 4 very good college players in Bess, Perkins, Collins & French.  A bunch of role players & the rest bums.  That is not the type of results we expect from someone who's strength is recruiting.

Let's all stop calling Ford a good recruiter, or elevate Soderberg up to that level as well.

[johnbj14]

1 hour ago, thetorch said:

Ding Ding Ding

Drop down in conference.  Rebuild the program organically, while lapping the field with our superior facilities and budgets.  Win multiple titles, gain more local support, attract more monied fans, then try to move up to a conference with more sustainable revenue while continuing our on court success.

We should have done this when we got kicked out of the CUSA, but we thought the A10 would keep a similar profile.  It hasn't.  SLU has tried to take short cuts to greatness through conference affiliation for decades.  Time to end this cycle.

 

Can’t disagree more. If we drop down, we will never come back up. It sucks being in an east coast league, but the games are in mostly major metro areas and the A-10 has multiple national TV agreements. Drop to the MVC and you literally play in 1 major metro market, and never on national TV. Might as well fold the program if you do that. 

[3star_recruit]

1 hour ago, thetorch said:

Biggest Billiken Myth #2

I exposed the #1 myth, that we belong in the A10.  Now to tackle myth #2.

Ford's recruiting at SLU has not been a strength.  Our on court play and lack of postseason berths speak to this.  Ford's recruiting has been only slightly better than Soderberg's, and by slightly I mean .00001%.  If these recruits don't pan out this season, he is worse than Soderberg.

Ford's first group of transfers half were booted off the team setting the program back another year.  Then recruited 2 big men with past, present, and future criminal records in Santos & Gordon who played about 10 games.  He hit a HR with Goodwin & French (Goodwin was suspended for a while and almost kicked off the team don't forget).  Since then he's had Perkins & Yuri but what else?  A lot of duds (some who played well after SLU), headcases, and at best role players.

Lets look at the misses of Ford

Henriquez, Graves, Johnson, Santos, Gordon, Anthony, Wiley, Hankton, Jacobs, Ingvi, Weaver, Bell, Hargrove, Diarra, Strickland, Russell, Lorrentsson, Williams, Traore, Nesbitt, Cisse, Kramer, Rivera.... with several more candidates currently on the roster.

Almost every season we really are one player short.  Every guy he brings in for this role is a wash.  The only time it worked out has been with Isabel, that barely worked out as he was a hugely disruptive who just had enough talent to overcome his attitude, and Perkins.  The worst part is the players he recruits for the bottom of the rotation that he then runs off, or doesn't play them enough to keep them.  Several of them have done very very well at new schools.  If given the opportunity they would be upgrades over the players that replaced them.

Ford in 8 years has recruited 1 major star in Goodwin, 4 very good college players in Bess, Perkins, Collins & French.  A bunch of role players & the rest bums.  That is not the type of results we expect from someone who's strength is recruiting.

Let's all stop calling Ford a good recruiter, or elevate Soderberg up to that level as well.

I assume Jimerson is one of the guys on your role player list.  Over 1300 career points and 2nd team all conference last year.  And Tramaine Isabell was a good one year investment.  

[Aquinas]

7 hours ago, billikenfan05 said:

So then you have to ask, is Ford the right coach for a school like SLU in this new world of NIL. He no longer has his recruiting ability to stand on. He's going to have to do a hell of a coaching job this year and every year. 

 

If anything today's game requires more recruiting effort. Coaches and staff use to evaluate high school players and a few jucos, with an occasional transfer, to fill 3-4 positions a year. Now they have that plus a huge transfer portal to evaluate and need to secure/continue to recruit their existing players. And have they have more spots to fill with players transferring out every year. They have to over recruit because today's recruiting miss is tomorrow's transfer recruit and they never know how many players or what players are leaving. It might be your best player. 

Get everything right with a recruit and then it comes down to a question of being NIL competitive. Come up short and move to plan B, C, D ,E etc.  I suspect most non power 5 coaches are frustrated and have recruiting fatigue. Good X and O guys have specific ideas about the type of players and skills they need  to impose their will on another team. It just takes a hell of an effort to assemble that team.

[TheA_Bomb]

It's not as basic as if the AD cared more he'd try to win in basketball.  I bet he cares, a lot. He just lacks innovation,  skills,  whatever it is that is necessary to get over this hump.  He's like Ford just OK, not good,  never great. 

The BVF is going to struggle right now, there's no excitement to help generate donations. A new coach would (unless their personality is a dud). I'm not donating because Ford will just waste it and get the same results. 

Conference is at lowest point and we're sinking too.  We'll sink until we fire Ford and get the right coach.  That equals doldrums of Fandom. 

[thetorch]

4 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

I assume Jimerson is one of the guys on your role player list.  Over 1300 career points and 2nd team all conference last year.  And Tramaine Isabell was a good one year investment.  

Jimerson has been a great role player. He's racked up points, but he's been a top 3 or 4 player on the team his career, not 1 or 2. This is his chance to be a difference maker, but we'll also see that a team led by Jimerson isn't a .500 squad.

Isabel was a good one year investment. Without him Ford would already been fired. That said Isabel came dangerously close to getting kicked off the team that year on more than one occasion and wrecked the chemistry on Ford's best team at SLU. While he won us the A10 tourney, his antics put us in a position where we had to win it to make the NCAAs. Talentwise that team was an at large team, a top 7 seed. Isabel's fights, hazing, skipping practices, leaving the team on road trips, and robbing teammates led to a 6th place finish in conference instead of a 1st place. 

That has been Ford's MO, take on risky recruits and hope #teamblue rehabilitates them. It hasn't worked at all, but he gets the credit of bringing in highly rated recruits. They just never end up playing here.

[thetorch]

5 hours ago, johnbj14 said:

Can’t disagree more. If we drop down, we will never come back up. It sucks being in an east coast league, but the games are in mostly major metro areas and the A-10 has multiple national TV agreements. Drop to the MVC and you literally play in 1 major metro market, and never on national TV. Might as well fold the program if you do that. 

Show me evidence that dropping down will cause us not to go up again? Examples?!?! until then its just an opinion, and a wrong one.

A10 tv has very few advantages over the MVC. Pay is roughly the same. What has all this "national" exposure done for SLU? 

Major Markets is myth #3. If we play a basketball game in a city with 9 million people but attended by 1500 people is that really a major market game? St. Louis is THE major market in the A10. Besides Dayton SLU has the highest attendance, best tv ratings, and most media coverage of any team in our league, year in year out. 

What is the difference between playing Fordham or Bradley? Fordham has better restaurants, and its fun to take the team to a broadway show. Other than that Bradley has a better facility and more fans at the game than Fordham will ever have. They usually play better basketball too. I guess you can't put a price on it being a slow news day in New York and the chance the Billikens could get a blurb on page 56 of the Post the next morning. 

What good does it do SLU to play teams that while in major markets, have the stature of Fontbonne in those markets (and worse facilities)? None. Quit bringing it up. Fordham, Duquesne, St. Joes, LaSalle, GW etc having any type of presence in their respective huge markets is as mythical as the unicorn.

[BrettJollyComedyHour]

7 hours ago, TheA_Bomb said:

I bet he cares, a lot. He just lacks innovation,  skills,  whatever it is that is necessary to get over this hump. 

I think he cares a lot about making money and fundraising. I think this is like the Cardinals malaise. Have the team be competitive enough to sneak into the postseason and see what happens so people will come to games and spend money. The Bills don't have the luxury of multi-million dollar a year contracts that last for a long time, but it's also the job of the AD to sell SLU as a desirable place to play, and it just isn't right now.

[Scoop]

Don’t throw Santos in your “risky recruit” bag. He wasn’t and did nothing wrong.

[CenHudDude]

5 hours ago, thetorch said:

Show me evidence that dropping down will cause us not to go up again? Examples?!?! until then its just an opinion, and a wrong one.

A10 tv has very few advantages over the MVC. Pay is roughly the same. What has all this "national" exposure done for SLU? 

Major Markets is myth #3. If we play a basketball game in a city with 9 million people but attended by 1500 people is that really a major market game? St. Louis is THE major market in the A10. Besides Dayton SLU has the highest attendance, best tv ratings, and most media coverage of any team in our league, year in year out. 

What is the difference between playing Fordham or Bradley? Fordham has better restaurants, and its fun to take the team to a broadway show. Other than that Bradley has a better facility and more fans at the game than Fordham will ever have. They usually play better basketball too. I guess you can't put a price on it being a slow news day in New York and the chance the Billikens could get a blurb on page 56 of the Post the next morning. 

What good does it do SLU to play teams that while in major markets, have the stature of Fontbonne in those markets (and worse facilities)? None. Quit bringing it up. Fordham, Duquesne, St. Joes, LaSalle, GW etc having any type of presence in their respective huge markets is as mythical as the unicorn.

Better not tell the Windy City that St. Louis is more of a major market than them.

[billiken_roy]

12 hours ago, thetorch said:

Ding Ding Ding

Drop down in conference.  Rebuild the program organically, while lapping the field with our superior facilities and budgets.  Win multiple titles, gain more local support, attract more monied fans, then try to move up to a conference with more sustainable revenue while continuing our on court success.

We should have done this when we got kicked out of the CUSA, but we thought the A10 would keep a similar profile.  It hasn't.  SLU has tried to take short cuts to greatness through conference affiliation for decades.  Time to end this cycle.

 

I understand your point, but I think the real problem is the decline of the A10 as a whole.   Bernadette has produced horrible results.  While the individual programs reluctance to improve their athletic department is likely the problem, it is Bernie's job (or should be) to convince/force the member schools to improve their athletic department and facilities.   

Those that won't or fail should be the departments forced to drop down to lesser conferences.   I have long believed the A10 would be better off shrinking in size rather than taking on more mediocre schools. 

Sure Gonzaga has been a big success following a big fish in a small pond path, but that's been a 30+ year path to get to where they are today.  They are the true exception to the rule.   And I would bet the decision makers at the school have been very very supportive of the Gonzaga athletic department.  

the best thing Saint Louis University can do imo is be the leader in pushing/insisting it's time for ALL schools of the A10 to catch up to the few schools at the top of the conference in budgets and facilities or move on.  We shouldn't be the one dropping down make those that won't leave it's time for all to get serious or leave.  SLU needs to step up and be the vocal leader and be willing to show they will make the investment to back up the needed bravado talk 

we aren't going to get the chance to join the Big East or the Big 12 in time to avoid the split of D1 but if the A10 can show a SERIOUS movement in bringing their conference up rather than at best treading water, I think we have a good chance to avoid the inevitable left behind.  The time to act is now.