BIG BILL FAN Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 1 hour ago, TheChosenOne said: I am one of those. For me it isn't his size as much as his lack of elite quickness/athleticism for that size which makes me question what his value will be at this level. I would put him more at the Valley level at this point. This summer should give us a better idea whether that is actually the case. I didn't see him having any difficulties beating anyone on the Vashon team last night, including McKinney. He's very smooth and lot more athletic than many are giving him credit for. Again, one of the biggest mistakes people make in recruiting is ignoring skill. There are few who can handle and pass the ball like him. He had 12 assists last night against a top team, and could have had a several more with better finishing. dennis_w likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufan13 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 It's not like Collins has to come in and be our 4 year starting point guard. I'd love to have him at SLU. I don't think he'll be an all-league player but I'll take a chance on a local kid who's at least a MVC player who's interested in SLU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChosenOne Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 1 hour ago, JohnnyJumpUp said: I'm a Chaminade fan and that particular blowout game was not frustrating at all. Beal dominated that entire game, looked like a man among boys. BJ Young was not himself in that game at all. Either you or me are thinking of a different game (I think it is me). I was thinking of the game that McCluer North won, but I think that was at UMSL. BJ Young had 27 points in the 2nd half (32 in the game) and led them to a comeback win (decided by 1 point). Beal had 4 fouls after 3 and had to sit while McCluer North went on their 4th quarter run led by Young to take the lead. Chaminade missed a free throw to tie it and even grabbed the rebound off of the miss, but couldn't convert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobillsgo Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 1 hour ago, billiken_roy said: thats not true. there have been plenty of players at the metro east schools that i did not go wild about that others did. and btw, my belleville school of choice is west not althoff. Would it have made it easier if I used blue font? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChosenOne Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 47 minutes ago, BIG BILL FAN said: I didn't see him having any difficulties beating anyone on the Vashon team last night, including McKinney. He's very smooth and lot more athletic than many are giving him credit for. Again, one of the biggest mistakes people make in recruiting is ignoring skill. There are few who can handle and pass the ball like him. He had 12 assists last night against a top team, and could have had a several more with better finishing. While I agree to an extent that some overlook skill (and there are plenty of examples of guys who were overlooked for these same reasons), those are areas of the game that can be improved on assuming guys are willing to put in the work (and he needs to work significantly on one of those skills, shooting). Lack of athleticism/quickness is much harder to change in a significant way, so if a guy lacks desirable physical traits for a position more often than not it won't work out or be comfortable with him being what he is (like Majerus couldn't get Evans to have success on the wing due to lack of wing skills and athleticism to play on the wing). So for me, does his skill outweigh those concerns? For me it doesn't. I think when it comes to Collins, some posters just disagree what level of player he is. At this point I have my doubts, so I am rather interested to watch him play this summer. I really do like his game, so if we do in fact get a commitment from him I am not going to be upset, it is just an offer I would not have made yet. The kid plays the game the right way, has tremendous court vision and is unselfish, I just have questions as to what he will be able to translate to this level. With regards to your point, I think it is a good discussion. Majerus made a living at SLU recruiting guys who were kind of overlooked because they lacked the ideal size/athleticism for their position at the high major level. I don't have time to think about it, but maybe I will start a thread about that in the offseason. You hit an interesting point, it might be interesting to look at the guys he recruited and became the leaders of that huge run to see what characteristics those kids possessed coming out of high school. billiken_roy likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 11 minutes ago, TheChosenOne said: Either you or me are thinking of a different game (I think it is me). I was thinking of the game that McCluer North won, but I think that was at UMSL. BJ Young had 27 points in the 2nd half (32 in the game) and led them to a comeback win (decided by 1 point). Beal had 4 fouls after 3 and had to sit while McCluer North went on their 4th quarter run led by Young to take the lead. Chaminade missed a free throw to tie it and even grabbed the rebound off of the miss, but couldn't convert. whatever happened to bj young after playing for mccluer north? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG BILL FAN Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 5 minutes ago, billiken_roy said: whatever happened to bj young after playing for mccluer north? last I heard he was playing in a Slovakian league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoon-Balls Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 An undersized Collins reminds me of Maurice Watson at Creighton. Would love to have a guy like that who can control the floor with spectacular ball movement. Combine him with Goodwin and holy smokes it would be hard for opposing teams to guard us... Speaking of Watson, talk about a guy that got railroaded by the Title IX folks. Luckily the court of law demonstrated how much BS was involved in the girl's claims... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetorch Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 16 minutes ago, TheChosenOne said: Either you or me are thinking of a different game (I think it is me). I was thinking of the game that McCluer North won, but I think that was at UMSL. BJ Young had 27 points in the 2nd half (32 in the game) and led them to a comeback win (decided by 1 point). Beal had 4 fouls after 3 and had to sit while McCluer North went on their 4th quarter run led by Young to take the lead. Chaminade missed a free throw to tie it and even grabbed the rebound off of the miss, but couldn't convert. Chaminade won at Lindenwood. McCluer North won in the playoffs at UMSL. Both games were great. Bj is a fashion entrepreneur and plays pro ball in obscure Asian countries. He is in Mongolia right now. A lesson for the kids. How does NBA talent land in Mongolia? Too much weed. Don't throw away millions because you have to smoke a pound a day. JohnnyJumpUp likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG BILL FAN Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 25 minutes ago, TheChosenOne said: While I agree to an extent that some overlook skill (and there are plenty of examples of guys who were overlooked for these same reasons), those are areas of the game that can be improved on assuming guys are willing to put in the work (and he needs to work significantly on one of those skills, shooting). Lack of athleticism/quickness is much harder to change in a significant way, so if a guy lacks desirable physical traits for a position more often than not it won't work out or be comfortable with him being what he is (like Majerus couldn't get Evans to have success on the wing due to lack of wing skills and athleticism to play on the wing). So for me, does his skill outweigh those concerns? For me it doesn't. I think when it comes to Collins, some posters just disagree what level of player he is. At this point I have my doubts, so I am rather interested to watch him play this summer. I really do like his game, so if we do in fact get a commitment from him I am not going to be upset, it is just an offer I would not have made yet. The kid plays the game the right way, has tremendous court vision and is unselfish, I just have questions as to what he will be able to translate to this level. With regards to your point, I think it is a good discussion. Majerus made a living at SLU recruiting guys who were kind of overlooked because they lacked the ideal size/athleticism for their position at the high major level. I don't have time to think about it, but maybe I will start a thread about that in the offseason. You hit an interesting point, it might be interesting to look at the guys he recruited and became the leaders of that huge run to see what characteristics those kids possessed coming out of high school. you make some good points, I agree that athleticism is desirable. Let's face it, if a player has everything, we aren't going to be in the running to sign them. I like to look for areas where a player truly excels. How nice would it have been this year to have a so so athlete who could shoot at a 45% rate from 3 ? That is a difference maker. In Collins I see a player that is going to make passes that very few can. It's not just about the individual but the team. I see Collins as a player who instantly makes every one else around him better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billiken Rich Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 H Waldman level passer? If he's that sign me up. I don't remember H being particularly athletic though he was taller and a good shooter also....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennis_w Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 I think we forget sometime that athleticism is desirable but the ball still needs to go in the basket. Sekue was a great athlete who couldnt ball AGB91 likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billikenfan05 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 9 minutes ago, dennis_w said: I think we forget sometime that athleticism is desirable but the ball still needs to go in the basket. Sekue was a great athlete who couldnt ball Crews forgot this. Edit: nevermind that was size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box and Won Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 30 minutes ago, dennis_w said: I think we forget sometime that athleticism is desirable but the ball still needs to go in the basket. Sekue was a great athlete who couldnt ball Sekeue is getting a lot of run here on the board lately. dennis_w likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 25 minutes ago, Billiken Rich said: H Waldman level passer? If he's that sign me up. I don't remember H being particularly athletic though he was taller and a good shooter also....... He might be a better passer than Waldman. I want Collins, but his shooting does need to improve. I think it should. You watch Collins shoot and his form looks good. I think his athleticism is actually somewhat underrated. He moves side to side pretty well so he keeps his guy in front of him. Super fast players don’t blow by him. dennis_w likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 53 minutes ago, brianstl said: He might be a better passer than Waldman. I want Collins, but his shooting does need to improve. I think it should. You watch Collins shoot and his form looks good. I think his athleticism is actually somewhat underrated. He moves side to side pretty well so he keeps his guy in front of him. Super fast players don’t blow by him. -you have seen Collins way more than my one viewing, you are sticking with this? and yes I see 'might be' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeniceMenace Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 4 minutes ago, Cowboy said: -you have seen Collins way more than my one viewing, you are sticking with this? and yes I see 'might be' Get Collins and put him out there w/ J-Good and Pearson. Collins will get them the rock. And hope T-Ford gets T-Ware ... He torched Belleville West & Liddell as a sophomore, 32 points, 12 rebounds and now after dropping all those pounds he’s way better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 I didn’t see Waldman play until he was a Billiken, so I can’t compare them at the same level. I have never seen a better passer on the high school level in St Louis area than Collins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zink Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 1 hour ago, brianstl said: He might be a better passer than Waldman. I want Collins, but his shooting does need to improve. I think it should. You watch Collins shoot and his form looks good. I think his athleticism is actually somewhat underrated. He moves side to side pretty well so he keeps his guy in front of him. Super fast players don’t blow by him. I totally agree on the unappreciated athleticism. His lateral quickness is great, and he has no problems blowing by his defender with a single dribble. You don’t need a 40” vertical to be a good enough athlete for the A10, or any league for that matter. He might not ever be the most physically gifted player on the court, but he also doesn’t need to be. Take Kyron Cartwright, who we faced this year against Providence. He was an All Big East honorable mention this year as a senior, and is a quick, shifty sub-6’ PG who went from 12% to 39% as a three point shooter over his four years. Averaged six-ish assists his last two years. Take a look at his body of work; I think that’s a pretty reasonable set of expectations for a guy like Collins. He’ll be good for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slusam Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Court vision is a skill that can't really be taught and Collins has it. brianstl likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almaman Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 12% as a freshman must of been happy getting second year schollie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennis_w Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 I watched nearly every game highmark played and i dont think anyone would say he was a great athlete,but he would have looked great on this years team as when he shot the ball it went in the basket Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlebill Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 Liddell named Illinois Gatorade POY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NextYearBill Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 8 minutes ago, Littlebill said: Liddell named Illinois Gatorade POY and boom goes the dynamite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macallan 18 Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 Nice video on Liddell. Says he is a B student and has exemplary character. That knocks Mizzou out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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