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Coaching or Talent?


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Let me start this topic by saying that it does not matter as it relates to Coach Ford.  He has had 8 seasons to get us to a better place.  He has improved us from the Crews era, but only to the point of being where we have typically been historically.  Finishing something like 20-11 and 3rd through 6th in the conference is what we already have been.  What we want to be and need to be is better than that.

When I look at this team to try to evaluate what is going wrong, I am more and more coming to a conclusion that is contrary to what the popular opinion is.  That popular opinion, as we have been hearing for years, is that Ford can recruit, but not coach.  As I watch this team, however, I still don't see a problem with our scheme on offense or defense.  We do almost exactly what I see other successful teams do scheme wise.  I see guys getting decent shots and in position to defend.  They are just failing to hit those shots and failing to defend.  What I see is guys not performing.  To be clear, again, it doesn't matter if its talent or coaching, those both are on Ford.  I just truly believe that most folks have way over evaluated the talent level on this squad.  In other words, I think the problem is the talent level Ford has brought in, not game planning type issues.

The reason I say this is because moving forward, we may have to adjust how we go about wanting to reach the heights we want to reach.  To this point, many Billiken fans have been infatuated with the idea of keeping St. Louis kids home.  We have now done that.  Pickett, Collins, Okoro, Hargrove, Perkins, Thatch (sort of), Goodwin, Nesbitt, Zeke Moore, Gillman, Gordon, etc., etc.  What has that gotten us?  The answer is, right where we are now and right about what we have always been.

I'm just wondering if the heavy on St. Louis kids model, that we have always wanted and now have, is the way to go going forward.  That is not to say that we shouldn't recruit St. Louis kids.  It's just an observation that getting above average St. Louis kids to come here in numbers we haven't seen before, did not put us over the hump that we want to get over.

Edited by cgeldmacher
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This team has the coaching and talent to beat Memphis, Providence, Drake, and Southern Ill., and take Auburn down to the wire. That's what makes what's transpired in the last 6 games so confounding and frustrating. This program/team was delivering on expectations until December 6th, and then not.

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The talent is undeniably there. The chemistry? The locker room morale? The compatibility? The coaching? The offensive schemes? The motivation and will to win? Those are all questionable. What's not questionable is that we have a lot of very good players on this team. 

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Ford is what he is and it’s obviously time for him to go.

that said I overestimated the talent big  time. I expected Jimerson and Perkins to be an awesome shooting duo and I expected Okoro to dominate inside on both sides.

I was extremely wrong. Jimerson hasn’t been able to shoot and Okoro has been terrible. Perkins has lost any bit of quickness he may have had. 
 

no coach would be able to win with these guys playing the way they are. 

 

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2 hours ago, cgeldmacher said:

 

The reason I say this is because moving forward, we may have to adjust how we go about wanting to reach the heights we want to reach.  To this point, many Billiken fans have been infatuated with the idea of keeping St. Louis kids home.  We have now done that.  Pickett, Collins, Okoro, Hargrove, Perkins, Thatch (sort of), Goodwin, Nesbitt, Zeke Moore, Gillman, Gordon, etc., etc.  What has that gotten us?  The answer is, right where we are now and right about what we have always been.

I'm just wondering if the heavy on St. Louis kids model, that we have always wanted and now have, is the way to go going forward.  That is not to say that we shouldn't recruit St. Louis kids.  It's just an observation that getting above average St. Louis kids to come here in numbers we haven't seen before, did not put us over the hump that we want to get over.

I'm glad you wrote this.  Our last great era was a decade ago.  We had, from the STL area, rotation players Cassity and Eckerle.  Mitchell was from Milwaukee, Jett from St. Paul, McCall and Evans from Chicago, Ellis was an Aussie, Remekun from Dallas, Manning, yes him, from VA, Conklin from Oregon, Loe from NZ, Barnett from WI.  Those teams were dynamite, had the city's attention, drawing decent crowds, and had very little connection to the STL. 

I like winners.  I don't care 'What High School did you go to?'  Give me a bunch of players from anywhere as long as they win.

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1 hour ago, cgeldmacher said:

Let me start this topic by saying that it does not matter as it relates to Coach Ford.  He has had 8 seasons to get us to a better place.  He has improved us from the Crews era, but only to the point of being where we have typically been historically.  Finishing something like 20-11 and 3rd through 6th in the conference is what we already have been.  What we want to be and need to be is better than that.

When I look at this team to try to evaluate what is going wrong, I am more and more coming to a conclusion that is contrary to what the popular opinion is.  That popular opinion, as we have been hearing for years, is that Ford can recruit, but not coach.  As I watch this team, however, I still don't see a problem with our scheme on offense or defense.  We do almost exactly what I see other successful teams do scheme wise.  I see guys getting decent shots and in position to defend.  They are just failing to hit those shots and failing to defend.  What I see is guys not performing.  To be clear, again, it doesn't matter if its talent or coaching, those both are on Ford.  I just truly believe that most folks have way over evaluated the talent level on this squad.  In other words, I think the problem is the talent level Ford has brought in, not game planning type issues.

The reason I say this is because moving forward, we may have to adjust how we go about wanting to reach the heights we want to reach.  To this point, many Billiken fans have been infatuated with the idea of keeping St. Louis kids home.  We have now done that.  Pickett, Collins, Okoro, Hargrove, Perkins, Thatch (sort of), Goodwin, Nesbitt, Zeke Moore, Gillman, Gordon, etc., etc.  What has that gotten us?  The answer is, right where we are now and right about what we have always been.

I'm just wondering if the heavy on St. Louis kids model, that we have always wanted and now have, is the way to go going forward.  That is not to say that we shouldn't recruit St. Louis kids.  It's just an observation that getting above average St. Louis kids to come here in numbers we haven't seen before, did not put us over the hump that we want to get over.

You forgot some Kramer, Hughes, and Thames.

I like the local talent but I don’t like the head coach.

Chris Beard got his walking papers take a big risk and see what he can do with the home grown talent.

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2 hours ago, CBFan said:

You forgot some Kramer, Hughes, and Thames.

I like the local talent but I don’t like the head coach.

Chris Beard got his walking papers take a big risk and see what he can do with the home grown talent.

My phone notifies me of every other BS thing that happens but I missed this today!  I have BA, MS from SLU and an MS from UT and I usually live in Austin.  Wow, I kinda figured they'd let him go.   Texas really prides itself on academics and doing things right in athletics.  However, I was hoping there'd be a way he could stay he is really building a great team.  I don't want to open this can of worms but there has been no charges and his fiancee has come out in support of him.

Could Chris Beard win at SLU?  Hell yes he's the best coach in the country.  Would SLU hire him? Probably not.

Chris Mack is free right now and doesn't have this baggage.

But man if you got Chris Beard at a severe discount, I mean like $500K/year dude would win so much.

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2 minutes ago, TheA_Bomb said:

My phone notifies me of every other BS thing that happens but I missed this today!  I have BA, MS from SLU and an MS from UT and I usually live in Austin.  Wow, I kinda figured they'd let him go.   Texas really prides itself on academics and doing things right in athletics.  However, I was hoping there'd be a way he could stay he is really building a great team.  I don't want to open this can of worms but there has been no charges and his fiancee has come out in support of him.

Could Chris Beard win at SLU?  Hell yes he's the best coach in the country.  Would SLU hire him? Probably not.

Chris Mack is free right now and doesn't have this baggage.

But man if you got Chris Beard at a severe discount, I mean like $500K/year dude would win so much.

Would never ever happen. That ain't SLU

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9 minutes ago, TheA_Bomb said:

My phone notifies me of every other BS thing that happens but I missed this today!  I have BA, MS from SLU and an MS from UT and I usually live in Austin.  Wow, I kinda figured they'd let him go.   Texas really prides itself on academics and doing things right in athletics.  However, I was hoping there'd be a way he could stay he is really building a great team.  I don't want to open this can of worms but there has been no charges and his fiancee has come out in support of him.

Could Chris Beard win at SLU?  Hell yes he's the best coach in the country.  Would SLU hire him? Probably not.

Chris Mack is free right now and doesn't have this baggage.

But man if you got Chris Beard at a severe discount, I mean like $500K/year dude would win so much.

Did not hear the whole story but since he was arrested for assault I'd assume his fiancee was the person who called the police. Sure is interesting that she now supports him. Do agree that he has a heckuva record as a HC, but if SLU dumps Ford then I doubt he gets a call.

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4 hours ago, cgeldmacher said:

Let me start this topic by saying that it does not matter as it relates to Coach Ford.  He has had 8 seasons to get us to a better place.  He has improved us from the Crews era, but only to the point of being where we have typically been historically.  Finishing something like 20-11 and 3rd through 6th in the conference is what we already have been.  What we want to be and need to be is better than that.

When I look at this team to try to evaluate what is going wrong, I am more and more coming to a conclusion that is contrary to what the popular opinion is.  That popular opinion, as we have been hearing for years, is that Ford can recruit, but not coach.  As I watch this team, however, I still don't see a problem with our scheme on offense or defense.  We do almost exactly what I see other successful teams do scheme wise.  I see guys getting decent shots and in position to defend.  They are just failing to hit those shots and failing to defend.  What I see is guys not performing.  To be clear, again, it doesn't matter if its talent or coaching, those both are on Ford.  I just truly believe that most folks have way over evaluated the talent level on this squad.  In other words, I think the problem is the talent level Ford has brought in, not game planning type issues.

The reason I say this is because moving forward, we may have to adjust how we go about wanting to reach the heights we want to reach.  To this point, many Billiken fans have been infatuated with the idea of keeping St. Louis kids home.  We have now done that.  Pickett, Collins, Okoro, Hargrove, Perkins, Thatch (sort of), Goodwin, Nesbitt, Zeke Moore, Gillman, Gordon, etc., etc.  What has that gotten us?  The answer is, right where we are now and right about what we have always been.

I'm just wondering if the heavy on St. Louis kids model, that we have always wanted and now have, is the way to go going forward.  That is not to say that we shouldn't recruit St. Louis kids.  It's just an observation that getting above average St. Louis kids to come here in numbers we haven't seen before, did not put us over the hump that we want to get over.

Good post. However, I disagree on the thought that there are no issues with the offensive and defensive schemes.

These Billikens rarely get open looks on offense. Most shots are severely contested and, often, blocked. And when the scheme highlights your big men posting up at the top of the 3-point line, while your 5’9” point guard yo-yos his way through traffic, something is wrong.

On-ball screens are treated as distractions, rather than functional picks. That is a coaching issue. There is so much ‘standing around’ on offense, and that is by design. If it wasn’t, these players would be benched.

On the defensive end, we have made it so easy for other teams to put points on the board. Some of it is effort, but there’s an alarming number of wide-open 3’s allowed each game. 

Teams press us all the time, and we really struggle to get the ball up the court. However, even though we have youth (and length) on the bench, we rarely press or trap. 

Ford is the wrong fit for this squad.
 

 

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I also disagree that it is not the schemes or coaching.  Perhaps a scheme is good but if you don't execute it correctly then you will not be effective.  For instance there's been much discussion that our use of screens is ineffective.  When you screen you get set in position and your player should nearly brush into you as they move passed with the ball so as to give no space for the defender.  We don't do that so if you scheme to screen and it is ineffective then the whole offense if ineffective.  Remember when we'd see Perkins roll to the elbow for a jumper?  Or sometimes GJ?  I haven't seen that lately and those guys can hit that shot with regularity.  When is the last time you've seen a back cut?

As for defense they don't play together.  There is no help and they are slow to recognize the shooter and cover down.  If you're team is not athletic enough to play M2M defense then go zone.  However, zone requires players to understand their position in the zone.

I think the team has talent.  I think the talent is wasted in that they don't progress individually and they certainly aren't playing together effectively.

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25 minutes ago, TheA_Bomb said:

My phone notifies me of every other BS thing that happens but I missed this today!  I have BA, MS from SLU and an MS from UT and I usually live in Austin.  Wow, I kinda figured they'd let him go.   Texas really prides itself on academics and doing things right in athletics.  However, I was hoping there'd be a way he could stay he is really building a great team.  I don't want to open this can of worms but there has been no charges and his fiancee has come out in support of him.

Could Chris Beard win at SLU?  Hell yes he's the best coach in the country.  Would SLU hire him? Probably not.

Chris Mack is free right now and doesn't have this baggage.

But man if you got Chris Beard at a severe discount, I mean like $500K/year dude would win so much.

Didn't the woman take back her story but the university fired him anyway?

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3 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

Didn't the woman take back her story but the university fired him anyway?

Yeah, I understand this day and age this type of thing will cause so many unneeded problems. Just a sad situation on so many levels. These things are always so messy and they don't have to put up with it. 

Already speculation they've been in contact with Jay Wright.  

 

As for SLU coaching search anyone realize that Mack disciple has College of Charleston ranked?  Pat Kelsey winning.

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I like Ford but believe he needs a big man coach. This team isn’t playing any defense and Ford says he is trying to hide that with the zone. Offense always sucks if players rush their shots and have poor screens to shot behind. Our bigs should be screens and rebounders.

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2 hours ago, TheA_Bomb said:

My phone notifies me of every other BS thing that happens but I missed this today!  I have BA, MS from SLU and an MS from UT and I usually live in Austin.  Wow, I kinda figured they'd let him go.   Texas really prides itself on academics and doing things right in athletics.  However, I was hoping there'd be a way he could stay he is really building a great team.  I don't want to open this can of worms but there has been no charges and his fiancee has come out in support of him.

Could Chris Beard win at SLU?  Hell yes he's the best coach in the country.  Would SLU hire him? Probably not.

Chris Mack is free right now and doesn't have this baggage.

But man if you got Chris Beard at a severe discount, I mean like $500K/year dude would win so much.

No coach today that is worth anything will work for 500K.  Whatever we are paying Ford will be the floor and he is not making peanuts.

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8 hours ago, cgeldmacher said:

I'm just wondering if the heavy on St. Louis kids model, that we have always wanted and now have, is the way to go going forward.  That is not to say that we shouldn't recruit St. Louis kids.  It's just an observation that getting above average St. Louis kids to come here in numbers we haven't seen before, did not put us over the hump that we want to get over.

If offering a kid because he is local over someone likely to be better is what you mean, then sure we shouldn't be doing that. But to fair I don't think we've been given any reason to believe Ford has done that.

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10 hours ago, TheA_Bomb said:

My phone notifies me of every other BS thing that happens but I missed this today!  I have BA, MS from SLU and an MS from UT and I usually live in Austin.  Wow, I kinda figured they'd let him go.   Texas really prides itself on academics and doing things right in athletics.  However, I was hoping there'd be a way he could stay he is really building a great team.  I don't want to open this can of worms but there has been no charges and his fiancee has come out in support of him.

Could Chris Beard win at SLU?  Hell yes he's the best coach in the country.  Would SLU hire him? Probably not.

Chris Mack is free right now and doesn't have this baggage.

But man if you got Chris Beard at a severe discount, I mean like $500K/year dude would win so much.

I think a million a year with escalations in personal conduct and winning with big raises that gets him to Fords salary would be a good start.

May needs to be bold the season ticket holders need to demand this from May.

There is a once in a lifetime coach available that can create something big.  Does SLU believe in redemption of a man’s mistakes.

I encourage all that say SLU wouldn’t do it to start pushing it.

I would be willing to pay more for my 4 seats to have another once in a lifetime coach.

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4 minutes ago, BC1764 said:

Which is why we will always be small time.

This is why the fans need to be in May’s ear right now.

May needs to be the first to negotiate and have the Beard announcement ready the first hour the season ends.

Talk about excitement going into the next season.

I will start my emails today to May.

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There are 10 different threads this could go in but I am not convinced at all that May will fire Ford regardless of how the rest of this season goes. In fact, I truly think there is a 90% chance Ford is our coach next season. Hope I'm wrong. This team was going nowhere and most people could see that but if Fred misses time I can see the following excuses

- expected Perkins to be healthier

- Fred injury

- tough OOO schedule and weak A10 was bad combination

- give Ford a chance with the NIL collective 

I really think he's coming back. I expect results to be the same considering his entire coaching history shows that including the non SLU years. Again I hope I'm wrong. Ford has done a lot for SLU but it's going to take someone else to make the next step

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2 minutes ago, slufan13 said:

There are 10 different threads this could go in but I am not convinced at all that May will fire Ford regardless of how the rest of this season goes. In fact, I truly think there is a 90% chance Ford is our coach next season. Hope I'm wrong. This team was going nowhere and most people could see that but if Fred misses time I can see the following excuses

- expected Perkins to be healthier

- Fred injury

- tough OOO schedule and weak A10 was bad combination

- give Ford a chance with the NIL collective 

I really think he's coming back. I expect results to be the same considering his entire coaching history shows that including the non SLU years. Again I hope I'm wrong. Ford has done a lot for SLU but it's going to take someone else to make the next step

Until somebody answers my question that I have asked at least 3 times recently - what is the status of Ford's current contract, how many years left, is there a buy out and what is it, and how much would we owe him if he was fired - all this discussion is just silly noise.  I have no problem with expressing your dissatisfaction with Ford and the team but blaming the school for not hiring a Chris Beard is just naive.

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40 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

Until somebody answers my question that I have asked at least 3 times recently - what is the status of Ford's current contract, how many years left, is there a buy out and what is it, and how much would we owe him if he was fired - all this discussion is just silly noise.  I have no problem with expressing your dissatisfaction with Ford and the team but blaming the school for not hiring a Chris Beard is just naive.

I only want the school to reach out to Chris Beard if they don’t I have a problem with that.

SLU wouldn’t be the only school after him there will be competition for his services so I would not blame SLU for not hiring him.

If Ford is back next season I will not renew my tickets until there is a change and that cannot be another coach fired that did not get the job done.

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