Travis Ford is not a good coach

[Soderball]

2 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

There's no such thing as a coach that makes the NIT evey year that doesn't eventually make the tournament.  It's just a matter of time.

Brian Gregory

[Soderball]

4 hours ago, Taj79 said:

@Soderball:  what I'm advocating is keeping Ford.  Period.  Satisfied?  I don' want to start over.  

But there are contingencies in that keeping him.  They have been stated numerous times here over the last year ---- better than a fifth or sixth place finish in the A10.  Getting into the tournament on a consistent basis.  Beating some top 25 - 50 teams.  Winning in the tournament.  I personally don't know how he does that ---- is it hiring a better staff?  Is it hiring a player developer?  Is it recruiting more complete players?  Is it getting basketball religion and changing your offensive and defensive schemes?  I don't know.  But it is Ford forward.

I will also say this:  if this kind of conversation occurs this time next year, the Ford fiesta is over.  Next year's head coach's seat starts out lukewarm.  It won't likely get hot until conference play, if it gets hot at all.  Let's go from there.

If we win 20 games again, nope.

If we have a losing record, or if both Collins and Perkins are gone and we have no juice left on the roster, absolutely.

 

Personally, if we end up in the top 4 in conference play I am satisfied with the season. That's who we are, upper rung of the A10. That's who we are right now. That's probably who we remain regardless of our hire. If we do less, get them out. If they keep us where we should be, I'm having fun.

Tournaments and the like are one-off. Success for SLU is defined by three factors(in order of importance) ....

1. Top 4 in conference season play

2. Top 80 NET

3. NCAA Tournament appearance

 

If we do those, Ford is doing just fine. We hit 1 and nearly 2 of them this year. I think we can hit 2 of them next year as well.

 

 

Also aside, thank you for stating you want to keep Ford. You're frustrated with play. Put it in that context instead of laying it on Ford as though he is having Crews-like failure. If we end up with Crews-like talent and Crews-like failure for even one season, he does have to go. Absolutely.

[TheA_Bomb]

There's been bad luck.  Agreed the team experienced some unfortunate events.  Is there 1 time they've overcome the bad luck? Overcome adversity?  I can't think of 1.  That falls back on the coach and the mentality he's cultivated in the team.

We can't fire Travis Ford.  He has another season to show that he's the guy.

 

I am just disappointed that what I thought when we hired him is coming to fruition.  He is a mediocre coach that recruits well but never wins when it matters.  It's a tease.  I don't think he's going to turn it around and get an at large bid and maybe win a round 1 game.  Anyone that does give me your basis for such a belief.  More than anything I want SLU to win in the NCAA tournament.  

[3star_recruit]

33 minutes ago, Soderball said:

Brian Gregory

You're literally using as an example a guy who went to the NIT year after year and finally made it to the Dance.

[JettFlight5]

32 minutes ago, Soderball said:

If we win 20 games again, nope.

If we have a losing record, or if both Collins and Perkins are gone and we have no juice left on the roster, absolutely.

 

Personally, if we end up in the top 4 in conference play I am satisfied with the season. That's who we are, upper rung of the A10. That's who we are right now. That's probably who we remain regardless of our hire. If we do less, get them out. If they keep us where we should be, I'm having fun.

Tournaments and the like are one-off. Success for SLU is defined by three factors(in order of importance) ....

1. Top 4 in conference season play

2. Top 80 NET

3. NCAA Tournament appearance

 

If we do those, Ford is doing just fine. We hit 1 and nearly 2 of them this year. I think we can hit 2 of them next year as well.

 

 

Also aside, thank you for stating you want to keep Ford. You're frustrated with play. Put it in that context instead of laying it on Ford as though he is having Crews-like failure. If we end up with Crews-like talent and Crews-like failure for even one season, he does have to go. Absolutely.

Those are very clear benchmarks. I respect you for putting it out there. Personally my order is 3, 1, 2. NCAA or bust should not only be the motto; it should be the first order of business. This program is better off than the last guy's dumpster fire...so what happens next? 

 

[JettFlight5]

The most frustrating part is how close we are.

[Young Charles]

9 years ago today, just thought I’d put this in here 

[JettFlight5]

7 minutes ago, Young Charles said:

9 years ago today, just thought I’d put this in here 

Sim Bhullar had a really bad day guarding Dwayne Evans.

[BrettJollyComedyHour]

4 minutes ago, JettFlight5 said:

Sim Bhullar had a really bad day guarding Dwayne Evans.

Sim Bhullar is ironically one of my favorite college players I remember from when I was in high school.

[MUTGR]

1 hour ago, TheA_Bomb said:

There's been bad luck.  Agreed the team experienced some unfortunate events.  Is there 1 time they've overcome the bad luck? Overcome adversity?  I can't think of 1.  That falls back on the coach and the mentality he's cultivated in the team.

We can't fire Travis Ford.  He has another season to show that he's the guy.

 

I am just disappointed that what I thought when we hired him is coming to fruition.  He is a mediocre coach that recruits well but never wins when it matters.  It's a tease.  I don't think he's going to turn it around and get an at large bid and maybe win a round 1 game.  Anyone that does give me your basis for such a belief.  More than anything I want SLU to win in the NCAA tournament.  

Cuonzo is available. 

[Slowry]

11 minutes ago, MUTGR said:

Cuonzo is available. 

That made me laugh

[TheA_Bomb]

Examining Soderball's proposed bench marks:

"1. Top 4 in conference season play

2. Top 80 NET

3. NCAA Tournament appearance"

#1 most important is being in the NCAA tournament.   If you are then you're very likely top 4 in conference and top 80 NET.

Tournament appearances are lifeblood to a successful program.   They inject more money into your program.  Bid money,  jersey/shoe contract and TV deals are all increased.  They provide exposure to recruits who want to play on that stage. 

Top 80 NET isn't high enough maybe 60.

Top 4 conference is a good metric.

Winning the conference every 5-6 years is another metric.  Regular season weighted more than winning the conference tournament. 

I'd also add beating your rival. 

We don't have a hard core rival.  But in conference it's UD, out of conference SMS and SIUC.  So when you play them you should beat them more than 50% of the time. 

Ford's record vs UD is 4-9, just FYI.

So adjusted coaching success metrics:

1. NCAA tournament appearance (minimum 1 every 4 years)

2. Top 4 conference finish (4 of 5 years)

3. Top 60 NET (4 of 5 years)

4. Win conference once every 6 years

5. Winning record vs rivals (>50%)

6. Win a post-season tournament game (NCAA, NIT, other) every other appearance

(Above is not in order of importance.  NCAA appearance is most important. )

[billiken_roy]

4 minutes ago, TheA_Bomb said:

Examining Soderball's proposed bench marks:

"1. Top 4 in conference season play

2. Top 80 NET

3. NCAA Tournament appearance"

#1 most important is being in the NCAA tournament.   If you are then you're very likely top 4 in conference and top 80 NET.

Tournament appearances are lifeblood to a successful program.   They inject more money into your program.  Bid money,  jersey/shoe contract and TV deals are all increased.  They provide exposure to recruits who want to play on that stage. 

Top 80 NET isn't high enough maybe 60.

Top 4 conference is a good metric.

Winning the conference every 5-6 years is another metric.  Regular season weighted more than winning the conference tournament. 

I'd also add beating your rival. 

We don't have a hard core rival.  But in conference it's UD, out of conference SMS and SIUC.  So when you play them you should beat them more than 50% of the time. 

Ford's record vs UD is 4-9, just FYI.

So adjusted coaching success metrics:

1. NCAA tournament appearance (minimum 1 every 4 years)

2. Top 4 conference finish (4 of 5 years)

3. Top 60 NET (4 of 5 years)

4. Win conference once every 6 years

5. Winning record vs rivals (>50%)

6. Win a post-season tournament game (NCAA, NIT, other) every other appearance

(Above is not in order of importance.  NCAA appearance is most important. )

top 40 NET accomplishes all.   no need for another metric in the above discussion.  that's were i am.  

[TheA_Bomb]

21 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

top 40 NET accomplishes all.   no need for another metric in the above discussion.  that's were i am.  

Baby steps to get there

 

These are measures of performance aka MOPs they help answer the question, "are we doing things right?"  You're all invited to my class on Mission Command and Operations in El Salvador in May.  Or you can refer to Joint Planning 5-0 figure VI-20 to see how to develop your own. 

[johnbj14]

Personal benchmarks of success for the program, based on facilities, geographic footprint, and resources spent on the program. 
1. Multiple bids per recruiting class. If you come in as a frosh at SLU, 2 tournaments should be made. 
2. Top 45 NET annually. Being in that range is 85% rewarded with an at-large. 
3. Top 120 non-con SOS. Playing good teams is the only way to prepare for A-10 play  

4. At least one 4 star, highly acclaimed transfer, or JUCO player every other season.
 

Based on what SLU commits to basketball, these are goals that are without the program’s reach. If Ford is the one to accomplish that, great! If not, the tough choice must be made to maximize the most valuable marketing and engagement of the university.  

[CBFan]

14 hours ago, Soderball said:

If we win 20 games again, nope.

If we have a losing record, or if both Collins and Perkins are gone and we have no juice left on the roster, absolutely.

 

Personally, if we end up in the top 4 in conference play I am satisfied with the season. That's who we are, upper rung of the A10. That's who we are right now. That's probably who we remain regardless of our hire. If we do less, get them out. If they keep us where we should be, I'm having fun.

Tournaments and the like are one-off. Success for SLU is defined by three factors(in order of importance) ....

1. Top 4 in conference season play

2. Top 80 NET

3. NCAA Tournament appearance

 

If we do those, Ford is doing just fine. We hit 1 and nearly 2 of them this year. I think we can hit 2 of them next year as well.

 

 

Also aside, thank you for stating you want to keep Ford. You're frustrated with play. Put it in that context instead of laying it on Ford as though he is having Crews-like failure. If we end up with Crews-like talent and Crews-like failure for even one season, he does have to go. Absolutely.

Based on the history of the program and being realistic I agree with your milestones 100 percent.

I have skin in the game by purchasing season tickets and those milestones have produced some great games win or lose on the court.  It also has the team in position for a top 4 finish every season.

I always feel that SLU can beat any team that comes on our court to play.

I like that the roster has local and regional recruits and that coach Ford can land some 4 star players.

The only way to get to the next level is to find another coaching legend like Rick Majerus to come to SLU and pay that coach 3 times as much as coach Ford.

[ACE]

We lost two great players to graduation following last year - this year's team was not projected to win the league entering this season. SLU then loses its best returning player and conference player of the year candidate before the season starts - after that happened, I'm just curious what expectations people had for the team?

There were certainly some frustrating moments this season, but was the perception of this season being a disappointment a product of Ford's failures or a case of some unrealistic fan expectations?

[johnbj14]

3 minutes ago, ACE said:

We lost two great players to graduation following last year - this year's team was not projected to win the league entering this season. SLU then loses its best returning player and conference player of the year candidate before the season starts - after that happened, I'm just curious what expectations people had for the team?

There were certainly some frustrating moments this season, but was the perception of this season being a disappointment a product of Ford's failures or a case of some unrealistic fan expectations?

This season is almost spot on to what I expected without Javonte. The expectations I referenced a few posts up still apply, and this year would be viewed through a much different lens if Javonte were healthy all year and it played out the same. 

[3star_recruit]

22 minutes ago, johnbj14 said:

Personal benchmarks of success for the program, based on facilities, geographic footprint, and resources spent on the program. 
1. Multiple bids per recruiting class. If you come in as a frosh at SLU, 2 tournaments should be made. 
2. Top 45 NET annually. Being in that range is 85% rewarded with an at-large. 
3. Top 120 non-con SOS. Playing good teams is the only way to prepare for A-10 play  

4. At least one 4 star, highly acclaimed transfer, or JUCO player every other season.
 

Based on what SLU commits to basketball, these are goals that are without the program’s reach. If Ford is the one to accomplish that, great! If not, the tough choice must be made to maximize the most valuable marketing and engagement of the university.  

The benchmarks you describe are the profile of a top 30 program.

[willie]

1 hour ago, TheA_Bomb said:

Examining Soderball's proposed bench marks:

"1. Top 4 in conference season play

2. Top 80 NET

3. NCAA Tournament appearance"

#1 most important is being in the NCAA tournament.   If you are then you're very likely top 4 in conference and top 80 NET.

Tournament appearances are lifeblood to a successful program.   They inject more money into your program.  Bid money,  jersey/shoe contract and TV deals are all increased.  They provide exposure to recruits who want to play on that stage. 

Top 80 NET isn't high enough maybe 60.

Top 4 conference is a good metric.

Winning the conference every 5-6 years is another metric.  Regular season weighted more than winning the conference tournament. 

I'd also add beating your rival. 

We don't have a hard core rival.  But in conference it's UD, out of conference SMS and SIUC.  So when you play them you should beat them more than 50% of the time. 

Ford's record vs UD is 4-9, just FYI.

So adjusted coaching success metrics:

1. NCAA tournament appearance (minimum 1 every 4 years)

2. Top 4 conference finish (4 of 5 years)

3. Top 60 NET (4 of 5 years)

4. Win conference once every 6 years

5. Winning record vs rivals (>50%)

6. Win a post-season tournament game (NCAA, NIT, other) every other appearance

(Above is not in order of importance.  NCAA appearance is most important. )

Sorry but you are thinking small. 

[johnbj14]

13 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

The benchmarks you describe are the profile of a top 30 program.

Perhaps, and they won’t happen every year. SLU spends at a level equivalent with mid-level Big East schools, but goals should be set to challenge the program to be better, not maintain status quo. 

[Brighton]

Yeah , they outspend both DePaul and Butler. It’s about time fans and boosters get better results for their investments.

[billiken_roy]

54 minutes ago, TheA_Bomb said:

Baby steps to get there

 

what and take another 40 years?   b.s.   

1. start scheduling every year with the best out of conference schedule we can.   

2.  start recruiting a roster that matches ford's style.   this nonsense where he brings in supreme athletes and then plans half court needs to stop. [personally i'd rather watch the up and down havoc style play, but let's be honest.   he is never going to do that.   he is never going to play a full roster rotation.)   if he wants to be davidson, then recruit a davidson roster of deadly shooters and high iq players and tough inside players that rebound consistently and guard the basket like crazy.    i honestly think he might be in process of doing that with the 3 recruits he just got commits for.   they seem to be more akin to that line of thinking than the racehorses like strickland and hargrove and traore are.   

3. find yourself a few staff replacements that can help with game planning and development.   between tate, forte and himself, i think they got the recruiting covered. now make the recruits we bring in all they can be asap.   hands on.   dont give them a speech every spring and expect them to do it themselves.   there arent a lot of javon besses out there that will do that.  

we do the above with ford's recruiting, we would be a annual 40 NET team in less than 3 years imo.

[3star_recruit]

14 minutes ago, johnbj14 said:

Perhaps, and they won’t happen every year. SLU spends at a level equivalent with mid-level Big East schools, but goals should be set to challenge the program to be better, not maintain status quo. 

We can be better without setting goals that only 5% of mid-majors have met.

[billiken_roy]

3 *   i usually agree with you completely.   but i think you are wrong on this one.   we cannot continue to think small and restrict ourselves and expect things to get better.   we've been naively doing that for decades now and the program improvements have not risen much at all.   i'm getting too damn old with too many medical issues to continue to be patient.  GD let's get better with better planning and better utilization of the assets that we have been afforded.   

i am not advocating cheating or cutting corners.   i am not advocating ford be gone.   i just think we need a better more thoughtful approach.   in hindsight we seem to have adopted somewhat of a shotgun no aim approach with coach ford.   now lets get focused on what we are doing.   ford is too good of a recruiter and a motivator to fall flat every year.   make the necessary adjustments and lets take the next step up with coach ford.