2023-2024 Season

[johnbj14]

5 hours ago, thetorch said:

Show me evidence that dropping down will cause us not to go up again? Examples?!?! until then its just an opinion, and a wrong one.

A10 tv has very few advantages over the MVC. Pay is roughly the same. What has all this "national" exposure done for SLU? 

Major Markets is myth #3. If we play a basketball game in a city with 9 million people but attended by 1500 people is that really a major market game? St. Louis is THE major market in the A10. Besides Dayton SLU has the highest attendance, best tv ratings, and most media coverage of any team in our league, year in year out. 

What is the difference between playing Fordham or Bradley? Fordham has better restaurants, and its fun to take the team to a broadway show. Other than that Bradley has a better facility and more fans at the game than Fordham will ever have. They usually play better basketball too. I guess you can't put a price on it being a slow news day in New York and the chance the Billikens could get a blurb on page 56 of the Post the next morning. 

What good does it do SLU to play teams that while in major markets, have the stature of Fontbonne in those markets (and worse facilities)? None. Quit bringing it up. Fordham, Duquesne, St. Joes, LaSalle, GW etc having any type of presence in their respective huge markets is as mythical as the unicorn.

I’m not sure I agree with a single point made here. If you’re so adamant on this moving down strategy working, show some examples of when it’s worked. 

Dropping down to the MVC with this brain trust of May and Ford won’t lead anywhere. Maybe we have an additional bid in Ford’s tenure, but we’re not anywhere closer to being a consistent tournament team. 

The markets matter for recruiting. We’re recruiting guys from Philly, NY, Richmond, etc. far more often than Evansville. 
 

St. Louis is not THE major market in the A-10. We’re largely an afterthought to Mizzou. Dayton and VCU both outdraw us and are the big game in town. 

 

[thetorch]

22 minutes ago, CenHudDude said:

Better not tell the Windy City that St. Louis is more of a major market than them.

When the Windy City actually knows who Loyola, Chi is, let me know. 

Chicago hasn't supported any college basketball team for 30 years. SLU soccer outdraws Loy Chi basketball most seasons in a metro area with nearly 9 million people.

[thetorch]

23 minutes ago, johnbj14 said:

I’m not sure I agree with a single point made here. If you’re so adamant on this moving down strategy working, show some examples of when it’s worked. 

Dropping down to the MVC with this brain trust of May and Ford won’t lead anywhere. Maybe we have an additional bid in Ford’s tenure, but we’re not anywhere closer to being a consistent tournament team. 

The markets matter for recruiting. We’re recruiting guys from Philly, NY, Richmond, etc. far more often than Evansville. 
 

St. Louis is not THE major market in the A-10. We’re largely an afterthought to Mizzou. Dayton and VCU both outdraw us and are the big game in town. 

 

Another myth.

We recruit in East Coast markets so we have to play in them.

Do you really think playing a game against LaSalle affects Philly recruiting? If it does its only negatively. LaSalle is a joke in Philly. Nobody cares about them, they get zero coverage. No HS player is basing their recruitment on SLU because they saw us play LaSalle. No one sees us play LaSalle. I wouldn't want a recruit to know we play there. Have you been to their campus? It makes SLU in the late 70s look like Disney world. 

[thetorch]

39 minutes ago, Scoop said:

Don’t throw Santos in your “risky recruit” bag. He wasn’t and did nothing wrong.

Enlighten me. Admittedly i never got a full story. There were rumors of academic tampering and beating up a woman. He was kicked out of SLU. Never went to another school, immediately started playing pro ball in the Dominican and Argentina. He is a star on the Dominican natl team.

[Taj79]

I'd like to flip your script a little and ask you to show us programs that have gone down in conference only to then rise up again?  Most schools seem to be clawing upwards all the time ..... Temple, Cincinnati, Wichita State, Loyola, Davidson, Monmouth, Hampton, Belmont, Murray State ...... I am at a loss to name a school that went down only to come back up again.  There might be one or two (does Butler count? They had no choice but the Horizon when all that went down and wasn't really by choice) so fill me in.

[ACE]

12 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

I assume Jimerson is one of the guys on your role player list.  Over 1300 career points and 2nd team all conference last year.  And Tramaine Isabell was a good one year investment.  

Yes, and also Okoro, Foreman, and Thatch conveniently kept off the list - we would have been giddy to have players like this in the Sodie era.

Ford made the tournament, cracked the Top 25 before COVID derailed a season, was the first four out of the Tourney, and had another Top 50ish season - Sodie never even sniffed the Dance. 

It appears things may be heading in the wrong direction and if it is really bad this year without much upside, then I think most would agree it's time for a change... so there is no need to rewrite history with ridiculous statements like this: Ford's recruiting has been only slightly better than Soderberg's, and by slightly I mean .00001%.  If these recruits don't pan out this season, he is worse than Soderberg.

#hottakes

[Cowboy II]

7 hours ago, thetorch said:

Jimerson has been a great role player. He's racked up points, but he's been a top 3 or 4 player on the team his career, not 1 or 2. This is his chance to be a difference maker, but we'll also see that a team led by Jimerson isn't a .500 squad.

 

-is this really a fair point? is the kid supposed to recruit his fellow players and coach them? imo you are selling GibJim short

[Cowboy II]

-the conference commissioner works at the pleasure of the presidents of the member institutions, they can't force the member schools to spend more if the their collective boss is not on board

[DOC]

12 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

I assume Jimerson is one of the guys on your role player list.  Over 1300 career points and 2nd team all conference last year.  And Tramaine Isabell was a good one year investment.  

Just curious where he has Javon Bess?

[JMM28]

33 minutes ago, ACE said:

Sodie never even sniffed the Dance. 

I won't stand for this Sodie slander. 02-03/03-04 teams were both bubble teams and top 50-ish. 02-03 was a UT-Martin debacle in the home opener from being in the tournament. If we're playing "what ifs" for Ford, that Soderberg what if is a lot more reasonable.

[thetorch]

31 minutes ago, ACE said:

Yes, and also Okoro, Foreman, and Thatch conveniently kept off the list - we would have been giddy to have players like this in the Sodie era.

Ford made the tournament, cracked the Top 25 before COVID derailed a season, was the first four out of the Tourney, and had another Top 50ish season - Sodie never even sniffed the Dance. 

It appears things may be heading in the wrong direction and if it is really bad this year without much upside, then I think most would agree it's time for a change... so there is no need to rewrite history with ridiculous statements like this: Ford's recruiting has been only slightly better than Soderberg's, and by slightly I mean .00001%.  If these recruits don't pan out this season, he is worse than Soderberg.

#hottakes

#hottakes

This love affair with Fred Thatch must stop.  Great guy, he can marry my daughter.  But star???? Great player????

Injury prone. Overrated defender.  Can't shoot. A PF in a SG's body.  He was ok, but with all his injuries factored in he was not a good recruit.

Compare next to Anthony Drejaj, who nobody calls a star EVER.  Their stats are eerily similar.  Drejaj was a better defender and shooter too.  Played against much better competition as well.  

Things like this don't back up the narrative of Ford Good, Soderberg Bad.  In reality it is Ford Bad, Soderberg Bad too.

[ACE]

11 minutes ago, JMM28 said:

I won't stand for this Sodie slander. 02-03/03-04 teams were both bubble teams and top 50-ish. 02-03 was a UT-Martin debacle in the home opener from being in the tournament. If we're playing "what ifs" for Ford, that Soderberg what if is a lot more reasonable.

Ha! The 02-03 team was primarily Romar's roster and finished with a record of 16-14. Made the NIT, but NEVER close to the Dance. The heroics of Marque Perry (Spoon recruit) made that team somewhat relevant. 

[thetorch]

36 minutes ago, Cowboy II said:

-is this really a fair point? is the kid supposed to recruit his fellow players and coach them? imo you are selling GibJim short

A real great player for me has to the MAN.  No 1 option for his team.  Jimerson has never been that.  He has the opportunity this season.

Let's not forget Jimerson has had drawbacks, injuries, mid and late season collapses almost every year where his shooting and scoring drop off.  Up until last year, a chair was a better defender.  Also as has been noted on this board by dozens of posters, Gibson doesn't make big shots.

So no, a streaky 4th best player on the team for 4 years is not a star.  He's a role player, a good one, but still a role player.  Frankly his role should have been upgraded last season, no way should he have been featured below Perkins, Pickett, or Collins ever on offense.  We would have been a better team, but that is a coaching decision.  JImerson didn't have any huge breakout games to prove Ford wrong either.  He pumps in 35 a couple games and maybe we aren't left with Collins fumbling a drive in crunch time for us.

[VeniceMenace]

16 minutes ago, JMM28 said:

I won't stand for this Sodie slander. 02-03/03-04 teams were both bubble teams and top 50-ish. 02-03 was a UT-Martin debacle in the home opener from being in the tournament. If we're playing "what ifs" for Ford, that Soderberg what if is a lot more reasonable.

Plus Sodie had West Pine Gym, big variable in attempting to compare eras.

[thetorch]

4 minutes ago, ACE said:

Ha! The 02-03 team was primarily Romar's roster and finished with a record of 16-14. Made the NIT, but NEVER close to the Dance. The heroics of Marque Perry (Spoon recruit) made that team somewhat relevant. 

We were on the bubble that season.  First 8 out.  Look it up. Ha Ha!

I don't know why we penalize Soderberg because he didn't have to clean house when he took over the team.  He was on the staff before and recruited and developed that roster.  The team wanted him to be the coach.  In your eyes he gets no credit unless he threw everyone off the team and started from scratch.

[wgstl]

46 minutes ago, Cowboy II said:

-the conference commissioner works at the pleasure of the presidents of the member institutions, they can't force the member schools to spend more if the their collective boss is not on board

Then said schools needs to go.  A good Comish would absolutely set a minimum. In fact, this is what absolutely needs to happen.  With that said, LaSalle made a good step forward with the updated gym.  Setting a bar allows you to essentially kick out a school without kicking out a school since you gave them the option. 

[johnbj14]

Conference talk is great, and yeah we should want the other schools to improve and bring up their standards. But at the end of the day, 99% of the problems with SLU basketball are self-inflicted. The program has to win more, period. Doesn’t matter if it is the A-10, the Valley, Big East, or anything in between. Our current annual 22 wins gets you a handshake and a nice seat on the couch for the tournament. 

[ACE]

6 minutes ago, thetorch said:

#hottakes

This love affair with Fred Thatch must stop.  Great guy, he can marry my daughter.  But star???? Great player????

Injury prone. Overrated defender.  Can't shoot. A PF in a SG's body.  He was ok, but with all his injuries factored in he was not a good recruit.

Compare next to Anthony Drejaj, who nobody calls a star EVER.  Their stats are eerily similar.  Drejaj was a better defender and shooter too.  Played against much better competition as well.  

Things like this don't back up the narrative of Ford Good, Soderberg Bad.  In reality it is Ford Bad, Soderberg Bad too.

Who said he was a star or great player? A solid role player, but wouldn't put him in the category of recruiting miss either. 

Sodie inherited a solid roster, Ford had to build from scratch.

 

[ACE]

26 minutes ago, thetorch said:

We were on the bubble that season.  First 8 out.  Look it up. Ha Ha!

I don't know why we penalize Soderberg because he didn't have to clean house when he took over the team.  He was on the staff before and recruited and developed that roster.  The team wanted him to be the coach.  In your eyes he gets no credit unless he threw everyone off the team and started from scratch.

Please provide a link.

[TheA_Bomb]

@thetorch I'm loving the passion and I feel the same frustrations, I just think your solution is off.  Winning cures all things and a drop in conference may help with winning short term but it will be an overall negative.

When given the chance we've only seen teams move from MVC to the A10 not vice versa.  These schools have the data on income, cost shares etc that we are not privy too.   Here's some data, the site says it is derived from tax filings:

2022 MVC $12,999,386 Total Conference Revenue

Link: https://www.causeiq.com/organizations/missouri-valley-conference,431862074/

2022 A10 $25,987,787 Total Conference Revenue

Link: https://www.causeiq.com/organizations/atlantic-10-conference,222985527/

The A10 has 3 more Schools but makes nearly double the revenue of the MVC.

I hear you on facilities and crowds, however, the A10 is still pulling in more money.  Money matters a lot as it feeds our entire Athletic Department. The perceived value of the A10 from sponsors, TV contracts and other sources is providing nearly double the revenue.  That's not even close.

The answer to SLU's problem is not moving conferences it is winning in the A10. We can do that but I don't think we will with the current coach.

I also disagree on Ford's recruiting.  I think he has mostly recruited well.  We've  seen some of the best athletes (for SLU teams) but not necessarily the best basketball players.  I think the latter is due to a lack of coaching ability.

I do agree with you on some of the Soderbergh players not getting enough love.  The problem is he didn't have enough good players.  Also it was vs UofL, Cincy not Loyola, UD.

[CenHudDude]

4 hours ago, thetorch said:

When the Windy City actually knows who Loyola, Chi is, let me know. 

Chicago hasn't supported any college basketball team for 30 years. SLU soccer outdraws Loy Chi basketball most seasons in a metro area with nearly 9 million people.

 

11 minutes ago, TheA_Bomb said:

@thetorch I'm loving the passion and I feel the same frustrations, I just think your solution is off.  Winning cures all things and a drop in conference may help with winning short term but it will be an overall negative.

When given the chance we've only seen teams move from MVC to the A10 not vice versa.  These schools have the data on income, cost shares etc that we are not privy too.   Here's some data, the site says it is derived from tax filings:

2022 MVC $12,999,386 Total Conference Revenue

Link: https://www.causeiq.com/organizations/missouri-valley-conference,431862074/

2022 A10 $25,987,787 Total Conference Revenue

Link: https://www.causeiq.com/organizations/atlantic-10-conference,222985527/

The A10 has 3 more Schools but makes nearly double the revenue of the MVC.

I hear you on facilities and crowds, however, the A10 is still pulling in more money.  Money matters a lot as it feeds our entire Athletic Department. The perceived value of the A10 from sponsors, TV contracts and other sources is providing nearly double the revenue.  That's not even close.

The answer to SLU's problem is not moving conferences it is winning in the A10. We can do that but I don't think we will with the current coach.

I also disagree on Ford's recruiting.  I think he has mostly recruited well.  We've  seen some of the best athletes (for SLU teams) but not necessarily the best basketball players.  I think the latter is due to a lack of coaching ability.

I do agree with you on some of the Soderbergh players not getting enough love.  The problem is he didn't have enough good players.  Also it was vs UofL, Cincy not Loyola, UD.

 

11 minutes ago, TheA_Bomb said:

@thetorch I'm loving the passion and I feel the same frustrations, I just think your solution is off.  Winning cures all things and a drop in conference may help with winning short term but it will be an overall negative.

When given the chance we've only seen teams move from MVC to the A10 not vice versa.  These schools have the data on income, cost shares etc that we are not privy too.   Here's some data, the site says it is derived from tax filings:

2022 MVC $12,999,386 Total Conference Revenue

Link: https://www.causeiq.com/organizations/missouri-valley-conference,431862074/

2022 A10 $25,987,787 Total Conference Revenue

Link: https://www.causeiq.com/organizations/atlantic-10-conference,222985527/

The A10 has 3 more Schools but makes nearly double the revenue of the MVC.

I hear you on facilities and crowds, however, the A10 is still pulling in more money.  Money matters a lot as it feeds our entire Athletic Department. The perceived value of the A10 from sponsors, TV contracts and other sources is providing nearly double the revenue.  That's not even close.

The answer to SLU's problem is not moving conferences it is winning in the A10. We can do that but I don't think we will with the current coach.

I also disagree on Ford's recruiting.  I think he has mostly recruited well.  We've  seen some of the best athletes (for SLU teams) but not necessarily the best basketball players.  I think the latter is due to a lack of coaching ability.

I do agree with you on some of the Soderbergh players not getting enough love.  The problem is he didn't have enough good players.  Also it was vs UofL, Cincy not Loyola, UD.

If you’re speaking of major markets as basketball success stories, I’m afraid we take a back seat to Dayton and VCU.

[cgeldmacher]

11 hours ago, thetorch said:

Jimerson has been a great role player. He's racked up points, but he's been a top 3 or 4 player on the team his career, not 1 or 2. This is his chance to be a difference maker, but we'll also see that a team led by Jimerson isn't a .500 squad.

Isabel was a good one year investment. Without him Ford would already been fired. That said Isabel came dangerously close to getting kicked off the team that year on more than one occasion and wrecked the chemistry on Ford's best team at SLU. While he won us the A10 tourney, his antics put us in a position where we had to win it to make the NCAAs. Talentwise that team was an at large team, a top 7 seed. Isabel's fights, hazing, skipping practices, leaving the team on road trips, and robbing teammates led to a 6th place finish in conference instead of a 1st place. 

That has been Ford's MO, take on risky recruits and hope #teamblue rehabilitates them. It hasn't worked at all, but he gets the credit of bringing in highly rated recruits. They just never end up playing here.

Jimerson is not a role player.  He has led the Billikens in scoring the past two seasons (16.3 per game and 14.0 per game). That is not a role player.

[cgeldmacher]

10 hours ago, thetorch said:

Show me evidence that dropping down will cause us not to go up again? Examples?!?! until then its just an opinion, and a wrong one.

A10 tv has very few advantages over the MVC. Pay is roughly the same. What has all this "national" exposure done for SLU? 

Major Markets is myth #3. If we play a basketball game in a city with 9 million people but attended by 1500 people is that really a major market game? St. Louis is THE major market in the A10. Besides Dayton SLU has the highest attendance, best tv ratings, and most media coverage of any team in our league, year in year out. 

What is the difference between playing Fordham or Bradley? Fordham has better restaurants, and its fun to take the team to a broadway show. Other than that Bradley has a better facility and more fans at the game than Fordham will ever have. They usually play better basketball too. I guess you can't put a price on it being a slow news day in New York and the chance the Billikens could get a blurb on page 56 of the Post the next morning. 

What good does it do SLU to play teams that while in major markets, have the stature of Fontbonne in those markets (and worse facilities)? None. Quit bringing it up. Fordham, Duquesne, St. Joes, LaSalle, GW etc having any type of presence in their respective huge markets is as mythical as the unicorn.

There are no examples, because no one is stupid enough to make that move.  You ask us to show evidence that dropping down will not allow you to go up again.  I ask you to give one example of a program that dropped down.  Give as many as you can, and then we will evaluate what kind of success came out of that strategy.

[billikenfan05]

Theoretically, if you could clean house in the decision making roles of the athletics department and bring in the right replacements. I've heard crazier ideas than what you're suggesting @thetorch. You think May is as big of a fraud as I do, you don't like Pestello and you're out on Ford. What makes you think that trio wouldn't just plateau back at the A10?

[HoosierPal]

2 hours ago, TheA_Bomb said:

@thetorch I'm loving the passion and I feel the same frustrations, I just think your solution is off.  Winning cures all things and a drop in conference may help with winning short term but it will be an overall negative.

When given the chance we've only seen teams move from MVC to the A10 not vice versa.  These schools have the data on income, cost shares etc that we are not privy too.   Here's some data, the site says it is derived from tax filings:

2022 MVC $12,999,386 Total Conference Revenue

Link: https://www.causeiq.com/organizations/missouri-valley-conference,431862074/

2022 A10 $25,987,787 Total Conference Revenue

Link: https://www.causeiq.com/organizations/atlantic-10-conference,222985527/

The A10 has 3 more Schools but makes nearly double the revenue of the MVC.

I hear you on facilities and crowds, however, the A10 is still pulling in more money.  Money matters a lot as it feeds our entire Athletic Department. The perceived value of the A10 from sponsors, TV contracts and other sources is providing nearly double the revenue.  That's not even close.

The answer to SLU's problem is not moving conferences it is winning in the A10. We can do that but I don't think we will with the current coach.

I also disagree on Ford's recruiting.  I think he has mostly recruited well.  We've  seen some of the best athletes (for SLU teams) but not necessarily the best basketball players.  I think the latter is due to a lack of coaching ability.

I do agree with you on some of the Soderbergh players not getting enough love.  The problem is he didn't have enough good players.  Also it was vs UofL, Cincy not Loyola, UD.

Please don't post facts.   You are destroying some MBM's objective of posting nonsense in their personal vendettas.