Fall 2017 allegations against unnamed players (aka Situation 2)

[Quality Is Job 1]

15 minutes ago, SShoe said:

Well said on these 3 major points. The suggestion that these Title 9 investigations are some sweeping effort by lefty, feminist radicals completely ignores the flip side of the coin, which is that real sexual assault is all too common on college campuses and there needs to be a process for schools to properly adjudicate these assaults. That said, this investigation has certainly opened my eyes to the need for various reforms.

It's also unfortunate that the local paper has not done any actual investigative reporting on this one, as it would've been a great opportunity to highlight these issues and bring some notoriety to the paper.  My guess is that the resources are just not there, but there are other local papers doing this type of work (see Indianapolis Star and Larry Nassar).  I understand the SLU bball team doesn't generate the clicks, but the Title 9 stuff does.

I think those things should be handled through the criminal justice system.  That way there's due process.  It seems to me that the way sexual assault allegations are being handled by schools through Title 9 denies the accused of due process, which makes Title 9 unconstitutional.

[slufan13]

1 hour ago, gobillsgo said:

 

 

uncle tony hearing a decision on appeal coming today? 

I could see today being the day but I doubt Uncle T knows anything. Guy was irrelevant until a month ago. Love him though.

[Billfan7]

9 minutes ago, slufan13 said:

I could see today being the day but I doubt Uncle T knows anything. Guy was irrelevant until a month ago. Love him though.

Would SLU  announce the decision with the head Clown out of town?  I doubt it but it is SLU.  If so, he is a coward.

[SShoe]

35 minutes ago, Quality Is Job 1 said:

I think those things should be handled through the criminal justice system.  That way there's due process.  It seems to me that the way sexual assault allegations are being handled by schools through Title 9 denies the accused of due process, which makes Title 9 unconstitutional.

If the criminal justice was more up to the task, I'd agree with you, but it clearly isn't and hasn't been for sometime.  Ideally, the Title 9 and criminal justice investigations are occurring on parallel levels, but too often that's not the case.  That is particularly true here.  Unfortunately, the process has some serious flaws and they badly need fixing.

[DeSmetBilliken]

34 minutes ago, SShoe said:

If the criminal justice was more up to the task, I'd agree with you, but it clearly isn't and hasn't been for sometime.  Ideally, the Title 9 and criminal justice investigations are occurring on parallel levels, but too often that's not the case.  That is particularly true here.  Unfortunately, the process has some serious flaws and they badly need fixing.

Exactly. Colleges have an interest in protecting students from sexual assault, and sometimes the criminal justice system doesn’t accomplish that. At the same time,  many of these schools seem to be deficient in noticing the difference between doing something and doing the correct thing. 

Here’s an example I heard once. If a murder or a robbery allegedly  took place on a college campus, how would you react to the suggestion that anyone other than the police should be investigating it? You’d probably think it was nuts. Nevertheless, that’s what’s going on on college campuses with these Title IX investigations. I’m not saying categorically that they are bad, but in their current state they seem to be skewed in a way that doesn’t actually yield a finding of real truth. I’d like to see what percentage of complaints yield punishment against the accused, or more specifically, how many investigations end with the Title IX office telling the accuser, “sorry, we don’t believe that you were sexually assaulted.” Do they ever say that, or are they afraid to say that? I don’t know the answer, but I’d be curious to find out.

[CBFan]

1 hour ago, Billfan7 said:

Would SLU  announce the decision with the head Clown out of town?  I doubt it but it is SLU.  If so, he is a coward.

I agree Billfan7 even Freddy could not be that chicken, but it would not surprise me, and that is the state of the SLU presidency.

[SShoe]

10 minutes ago, DeSmetBilliken said:

Exactly. Colleges have an interest in protecting students from sexual assault, and sometimes the criminal justice system doesn’t accomplish that. At the same time,  many of these schools seem to be deficient in noticing the difference between doing something and doing the correct thing. 

Here’s an example I heard once. If a murder or a robbery allegedly  took place on a college campus, how would you react to the suggestion that anyone other than the police should be investigating it? You’d probably think it was nuts. Nevertheless, that’s what’s going on on college campuses with these Title IX investigations. I’m not saying categorically that they are bad, but in their current state they seem to be skewed in a way that doesn’t actually yield a finding of real truth. I’d like to see what percentage of complaints yield punishment against the accused, or more specifically, how many investigations end with the Title IX office telling the accuser, “sorry, we don’t believe that you were sexually assaulted.” Do they ever say that, or are they afraid to say that? I don’t know the answer, but I’d be curious to find out.

I can't remember which article I saw this in, but the stat I saw was that the successful prosecution rate for sexual assault crimes was only 20%.  That seems horribly low, but what do I know.  Pair that with the fact that sexual assaults are an extremely common occurrence on university campuses and often occur between two students who know each and one can certainly see the need for additional university actions/protections.  Again, that does not mean we should automatically punish the accused or have a system where one individual is ultimately responsible for making the decision. 

[BillIkenFan_Dan]

I want this all to be over, yet I still want it to drag on so Goodwin can keep playing 

[Billiken Rich]

4 minutes ago, SShoe said:

I can't remember which article I saw this in, but the stat I saw was that the successful prosecution rate for sexual assault crimes was only 20%.  That seems horribly low, but what do I know.  Pair that with the fact that sexual assaults are an extremely common occurrence on university campuses and often occur between two students who know each and one can certainly see the need for additional university actions/protections.  Again, that does not mean we should automatically punish the accused or have a system where one individual is ultimately responsible for making the decision. 

I don't think sexual assault is an "extremely common" occurrence on college campuses if properly defined.  This could explain the low successful prosecution rate and   certainly explains situation two if the collected wisdom of the board is correct. 

[brianstl]

Female college-aged students (18-24) are 20% less likely than non-students of the same age to be a victim of rape or sexual assault.

[SShoe]

10 minutes ago, Billiken Rich said:

I don't think sexual assault is an "extremely common" occurrence on college campuses if properly defined.  This could explain the low successful prosecution rate and   certainly explains situation two if the collected wisdom of the board is correct. 

It's a subjective term, no doubt.  I don't mean to make it sound like it's a daily thing. 

I think the low prosecution rate is typically due to the lack of witnesses and physical evidence often available to prosecutors in other types of cases. 

1 minute ago, brianstl said:

Female college-aged students (18-24) are 20% less likely than non-students of the same age to be a victim of rape or sexual assault.

That does not mean it is not a common occurrence on college campuses.   

[Bobby Metzinger]

T

1 hour ago, DeSmetBilliken said:

Exactly. Colleges have an interest in protecting students from sexual assault, and sometimes the criminal justice system doesn’t accomplish that. At the same time,  many of these schools seem to be deficient in noticing the difference between doing something and doing the correct thing. 

Here’s an example I heard once. If a murder or a robbery allegedly  took place on a college campus, how would you react to the suggestion that anyone other than the police should be investigating it? You’d probably think it was nuts. Nevertheless, that’s what’s going on on college campuses with these Title IX investigations. I’m not saying categorically that they are bad, but in their current state they seem to be skewed in a way that doesn’t actually yield a finding of real truth. I’d like to see what percentage of complaints yield punishment against the accused, or more specifically, how many investigations end with the Title IX office telling the accuser, “sorry, we don’t believe that you were sexually assaulted.” Do they ever say that, or are they afraid to say that? I don’t know the answer, but I’d be curious to find out.

Basically, the Title IX people enforce vigilante justice. They have no badge, no courtroom, operate under no set jurisdiction, but are Judge, jury and executioner. The paint the broadest of swaths on the narrowest of canvasses. 

[Spoon-Balls]

18 minutes ago, SShoe said:

It's a subjective term, no doubt.  I don't mean to make it sound like it's a daily thing. 

I think the low prosecution rate is typically due to the lack of witnesses and physical evidence often available to prosecutors in other types of cases. 

That does not mean it is not a common occurrence on college campuses.   

The problem is, it's getting harder and harder to say exactly "how prevalent" it really is on campuses. I'm not saying it's not a problem and that it doesn't exist, I'm just arguing that feminist groups have been pushing a narrative about extremely high prevalence when, in reality, there's no solid evidence to truly back that up.

Yes, reports of assault are going up. And that's a good thing for real victims of assault. But what if there has been a rise in false allegations of assault, the type of allegations we've seen in the media lately with Aziz Ansari (and here at SLU with S2)? It all depends on how people are actually defining "assault." If we allow Kratky and Weathers to define it, then pretty much every sexual encounter could be labeled "assault." That is what I'm trying to argue here. When you design "studies" to maximize the amount of "sexual assault" by opening up the term to mean things other than the legal definition, it is bound to contradict studies that use the term accurately.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/01/why-the-prevalence-of-campus-sexual-assault-is-so-hard-to-quantify/427002/

[William Kenneth]

37 minutes ago, Spoon-Balls said:

The problem is, it's getting harder and harder to say exactly "how prevalent" it really is on campuses. I'm not saying it's not a problem and that it doesn't exist, I'm just arguing that feminist groups have been pushing a narrative about extremely high prevalence when, in reality, there's no solid evidence to truly back that up.

I think this is a fair point, and in fairness SLU's feminists did try (albeit feebly) to gather statistics a couple weeks ago with their own survey, but "unfortunately" those efforts were skewed by some triggered MBMs.

[Billiken Rich]

21 minutes ago, William Kenneth said:

I think this is a fair point, and in fairness SLU's feminists did try (albeit feebly) to gather statistics a couple weeks ago with their own survey, but "unfortunately" those efforts were skewed by some unnamed and triggered MBMs.

"Triggered MBMs" might be the term of the year.......

[almaman]

2 hours ago, BillIkenFan_Dan said:

I want this all to be over, yet I still want it to drag on so Goodwin can keep playing 

34 more days gets us past A-10 Tournament  , 26 gets us through regular season. If we make either and he gets suspended for no more than a year, comes back as a sophomore after next season I think he'd stay and I for one would be quite happy all things considered.

[BillikenBoy10]

The usual at practice today

[billiken_roy]

2 minutes ago, almaman said:

34 more days gets us past A-10 Tournament  , 26 gets us through regular season. If we make either and he gets suspended for no more than a year, comes back as a sophomore after next season I think he'd stay and I for one would be quite happy all things considered.

i refuse to take that attitude.  they did nothing wrong.   since the precious little cheerleader made her statement last week almost assuredly admitting it was not a sexual assault of anykind it was a matter while in the act she was hurt no one asked her for permission to tape their little orgy she organized.   the cheerleader should be the one getting expelled.  our players should all be playing now and in the future.   stormy, krafty and pesty need to all go.  they are not qualified to work at walmart stocking shelves let alone guiding our school.   what is wrong with this school?  what is wrong with our country?  this is insane.  

[SLU_Lax]

4 minutes ago, almaman said:

34 more days gets us past A-10 Tournament  , 26 gets us through regular season. If we make either and he gets suspended for no more than a year, comes back as a sophomore after next season I think he'd stay and I for one would be quite happy all things considered.

I still want to note that if he is suspended for next year then he is putting his entire academic career on hold.  He is more than a basketball player.  He was looking at Northwestern because of its strong academics.  He would miss 5 terms if that happened (this semester would be lost, Summer 2018, Fall 2018, Spring 2019, and Summer 2019).  I would feel awful for Goodwin if this happens.  He would be academically behind and would have his entire academic career completely stalled.  The damage to him would be permanent.

[almaman]

Could he leave after this semester and attend Northwestern and when could he start playing for them if ever? If he could do classes and play in the fall he should do that. May be best thing to ever happen to him. One of the worst for Bill's fans but our desires not high on anyone's list.

[slufan13]

He could go pro too

[73Billiken]

In today's environment what is the likelihood that a recipient of a Title IX suspension would transfer, then be accepted by a university and then be allowed to play ball?

[gobillsgo]

9 minutes ago, 73Billiken said:

In today's environment what is the likelihood that a recipient of a Title IX suspension would transfer, then be accepted by a university and then be allowed to play ball?

I keep saying this as well. And the response here is typically, “they’d make an exception for Goodwin.”

personally, I’m not so sure. Title IX allegations are like cancer for a program these days. 

[SLU_Lax]

10 minutes ago, 73Billiken said:

In today's environment what is the likelihood that a recipient of a Title IX suspension would transfer, then be accepted by a university and then be allowed to play ball?

I think it matter's how good the player is and what the details of the suspension are.  In the case of Goodwin, it is very good.  In the case of AD, it is okay.  In the case of Bishop and Graves, it does not look too good.

[almaman]

That may work in our favor if he's not expelled completely he could return after a year or year and a half here and still be considered a hero, whereas somewhere else he may be thought of as an unwelcome thug. Seems harsh imo.