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20 hours ago, Taj79 said:

Let's [lay budget.  What is a reasonable starting point for a 13 scholarship men's basketball team?  I have no idea so let's say $10k per man equaling $130k per year.  Parse trhat out to today's current roster.  No one is getting $200k because it's not in the budget.  You going to give $20k to Yuri?  And Perkins?  And Okoro?  That's almost ha;lf the budget.  Do you give nothing to unproven players like Thames, Kramer, Cisse and even Parker?  I suspect there would have to be some sort of sliding wage scale but how do you develop such?  What would a four-star, overhyped guy like Carter or Nesbitt command?  

My daughter dated a soccer player at NC State.  In addition to his scholarship, he claimed he got a $3k per month stipend from the school for living expenses.  Is that possible?  Not advocating just questioning.

There absolutely has to be a sliding wage scale for NIL. That's kind of the point of NIL; not everyone is equal on a team or across sports and a player should be compensated based on how good he is or how much value he can add by marketing his name image and likeness.

How collective funds get allocated will technically not be done by the coach as it isn't allowed by the NCAA, and in some ways I suspect the coaches appreciate not being involved directly as it should ease the issue of kids coming to him and saying they want more money. But we all know how it works in the real world as coaches will undoubtedly talk to the administrators of the NIL collectives and have input into how much each player gets.

It has enormous potential to impact the locker room comradery as good players will get paid more, etc. But in fairness, every single one of them will be working for pay in a few years whether on a basketball team or at a job and salaries are rarely the same among friends.

Finally, $130k annually for the budget of a collective simply isn't going to cut it if SLU wants to remain relevant in college basketball. Think numbers more like $500k to get into the right ball-park. How that market develops over time is anyone's guess (I could see plausible arguments for it going up or down dramatically as time passes) but that's probably about right for teams in the 25-75 range these days.   

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52 minutes ago, Billiken Rich said:

In 1971 a brand new Pontiac GTO convertible ran could be had for $3600..........you were doing alright.....

And you could buy a second hand low mileage MGB for $800. The thing is this, life was not particularly cheaper at that time, but the dollar was certainly worth a lot more in terms of purchasing power.

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-some global NIL info - according to business of college sports, if it can believed, they list 98 collectives - some schools have two with Penn St, MIchigan and VA Tech showing three - some schools on this list that make me raise an eyebrow include Bradley, Bryant, Butler, East Carolina, Florida Atlantic, Florida International, Georgia Institute of Technology (?),  Grambling, Grand Canyon, Illinois State and George Mason as the only A10 on the list

-something called on3 indicates that as of July 1, 2022 there are 120 known collectives or in the process of being formed

-quite a few are listed as being charities so contributions could be tax deductible

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Cowboy II said:

-quite a few are listed as being charities so contributions could be tax deductible

 

 

I find it hard to believe that paying someone for their name image and likeness can be considered a charity. That having been said, anyone is free to put down whatever they want on their taxes, if they get it wrong the IRS will let them know, with penalties and interest. 

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1 hour ago, Lord Elrond said:

I find it hard to believe that paying someone for their name image and likeness can be considered a charity. That having been said, anyone is free to put down whatever they want on their taxes, if they get it wrong the IRS will let them know, with penalties and interest. 

I would assume that if you are saying you are a charity you must have  a tax exempt number. If that is the case you would not have an IRS problem. 

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Sorry ... NIL has got 'crash and burn' written all over it.  

I understand geldemacher's statement ..... in the fed, each city you go to has a meals and allowance number attached to it.  Highest likely San Francisco, New York, Hawaii, etc.  I think the lowest was a standard rate or $59 a day.  First and last day of travel paid out 75%.  That's what you got for meals, tips, baggage handling, etc.  You had to make it work.  I knew a guy who went to Oakland, bought a loaf of bread and a jar of jelly and had that all week.  Truly S-A-D!  I never operated that way.  But one meal at Ruth's Chris could wipe out the whole budget.  Simple -- don't go to Ruth's Chris.

Think about it .... should we as a program be forced to give guys like Adam Knollmeyer, Brett Jolley, Anthony Mitchell, etc. money.  For what?  The only place Knollmeyer's NIL would go is on a beat up old trash can.  Tuition, fees, room, board, books plus a weekly stipend should be well enough in ym book.  

If this is the future, I don't see it as sustainable.  Money is still the root of all evil, right?

 

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1 hour ago, Taj79 said:

Sorry ... NIL has got 'crash and burn' written all over it.  

I understand geldemacher's statement ..... in the fed, each city you go to has a meals and allowance number attached to it.  Highest likely San Francisco, New York, Hawaii, etc.  I think the lowest was a standard rate or $59 a day.  First and last day of travel paid out 75%.  That's what you got for meals, tips, baggage handling, etc.  You had to make it work.  I knew a guy who went to Oakland, bought a loaf of bread and a jar of jelly and had that all week.  Truly S-A-D!  I never operated that way.  But one meal at Ruth's Chris could wipe out the whole budget.  Simple -- don't go to Ruth's Chris.

Think about it .... should we as a program be forced to give guys like Adam Knollmeyer, Brett Jolley, Anthony Mitchell, etc. money.  For what?  The only place Knollmeyer's NIL would go is on a beat up old trash can.  Tuition, fees, room, board, books plus a weekly stipend should be well enough in ym book.  

If this is the future, I don't see it as sustainable.  Money is still the root of all evil, right?

 

Auburn has paid $37 million to fire (buyout) head football coaches since 2020. Please keep telling us the players don’t deserve it, there isn’t enough money, etc etc etc 

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Auburn is Auburn and a lot of colleges and universities have notoriously bad fiscal management. If you make a general statement, for example "there is not enough money" and mean it to cover the whole US economy. That statement is not necessarily applicable to Auburn or anywhere else.

If the IRS finds a way to disallow the "charity" designation given to NIL collectives, those taking deductions on their donations to these charity NIL collectives may be in for a lot of hurt.

From my point of view, if something does not look right to me, I step away from it.

 

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13 hours ago, Taj79 said:

Sorry ... NIL has got 'crash and burn' written all over it.  

I understand geldemacher's statement ..... in the fed, each city you go to has a meals and allowance number attached to it.  Highest likely San Francisco, New York, Hawaii, etc.  I think the lowest was a standard rate or $59 a day.  First and last day of travel paid out 75%.  That's what you got for meals, tips, baggage handling, etc.  You had to make it work.  I knew a guy who went to Oakland, bought a loaf of bread and a jar of jelly and had that all week.  Truly S-A-D!  I never operated that way.  But one meal at Ruth's Chris could wipe out the whole budget.  Simple -- don't go to Ruth's Chris.

Think about it .... should we as a program be forced to give guys like Adam Knollmeyer, Brett Jolley, Anthony Mitchell, etc. money.  For what?  The only place Knollmeyer's NIL would go is on a beat up old trash can.  Tuition, fees, room, board, books plus a weekly stipend should be well enough in ym book.  

If this is the future, I don't see it as sustainable.  Money is still the root of all evil, right?

 

Absent NCAA regulations, NIL is here to stay Taj. It could very well be the case that  the absolute dollar amounts being paid to players levels off or goes down, but I kind of doubt it. It's not about whether a stipend should be enough and to your point, players 10-13 on your roster probably will get very little to no NIL money.

As I don't work for the SLU athletic department, I don't know how much they get in true private donations on a yearly basis, but let's make a number up and say it's $5mm. Why is it hard to believe that that $500k of that could be diverted to NIL collectives for the benefit of the players and then handed out to the men's basketball team on a merit based weighting scheme? The athletic department will figure out how to make due with $4.5mm in contributions (assuming every last dollar is just a re-allocation instead of donors digging deeper to fund both).  

The alternative is we keep pouring money into buildings, coaches salaries, etc. and the NIL collective stays dry. No good players will come without NIL money and pretty soon we'll have a full 13 man roster of guys you named in your post above.

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NIL isn’t going anywhere, regardless of anyone’s personal opinion on the subject. Is it regulated poorly by the NCAA? Yes, and that’s no real surprise. But it is going to be a key component in staying relevant going forward. Not saying anyone is getting rich playing at SLU, but if the program wants to be able to compete for high level players, or retain guys that might transfer, NIL will have to be something that we get right. 

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I think the NCAA will at least try now to put some guardrails on the NIL situation.  Will they be successful or even toothless regs who knows,  The problem is when things operate like the Wild West nothing good can come from it.  I read an article in the Atlantic about this very topic - MLB Analytics - but the point of the article was  that when you focus on the finite and in this case it is teams wanting to win and thus nothing else matters (spending mega bucks to buy players) you lose sight of the infinite which is the growth and health of the sport along with the best interest of the fans you ultimately crash and burn the entire system.  This idea our society has focused on about creating chaos so a selected few benefit has really infected all areas and not for the good.

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https://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/archdeacon-leverage-and-loyalty-the-lost-art-of-daytons-daron-holmes-ii/BO4QBSI52JBTFLEXWEQNW5IRVQ/

Interesting article about Dayton's Holmes turning down an NIL bump from a P5 school to stay at Dayton.  He talks about the atmosphere, the team culture, and the Dayton path Toppin took to the NBA.

Here is a quote about where NIL is going. It (the new collective) keeps Dayton competitive, though it’s not in the rarefied air of some elite Power 5 football programs where, as Sports Illustrated reported, it’s expected that each player on the team (Ohio State lists 119) and the recruits will be paid $50,000 to $100,000 a year.

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14 hours ago, Taj79 said:

Sorry ... NIL has got 'crash and burn' written all over it.  

I understand geldemacher's statement ..... in the fed, each city you go to has a meals and allowance number attached to it.  Highest likely San Francisco, New York, Hawaii, etc.  I think the lowest was a standard rate or $59 a day.  First and last day of travel paid out 75%.  That's what you got for meals, tips, baggage handling, etc.  You had to make it work.  I knew a guy who went to Oakland, bought a loaf of bread and a jar of jelly and had that all week.  Truly S-A-D!  I never operated that way.  But one meal at Ruth's Chris could wipe out the whole budget.  Simple -- don't go to Ruth's Chris.

Think about it .... should we as a program be forced to give guys like Adam Knollmeyer, Brett Jolley, Anthony Mitchell, etc. money.  For what?  The only place Knollmeyer's NIL would go is on a beat up old trash can.  Tuition, fees, room, board, books plus a weekly stipend should be well enough in ym book.  

If this is the future, I don't see it as sustainable.  Money is still the root of all evil, right?

 

love of money is the actual quote, money in and of itself is not evil

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What Auburn folks paid to fire football coaches is irrelevant.  You are in accounting but a different line item.  Coaches have been bought out/fired for decades.  Coaches today have clauses in their contracts that if they go elsewhere, their new team must play their old team (Will Wade and LSU/VCU), new schools must pay old schools, buyout clauses, and so on.  I don't agree with it but kudos to savvy agents negotiating such items for coaches.  I never said giving money to kids was undeserved (given all the places it could go).  If you had $5m and gave most of it to one player (Jayson Tatum) you'd still surround him with likely basketball dregs (the  Yarbroguhs, Bartleys and Jolleys and Gillmans of the world) and you'd be risking roster disharmony.  John Manning says I'm not coming there without $20k in NIL money ... do you risk it?  Likely, even thought in hindsight we know what a waste that would have been.

No disagreement with kshoe on his input.  While the overall interpretation might be "no good good players will populate your team" without NIL, that is still a sad situation to me.  It seems we are cultivating a 'more money' aspect to all this.  If you are good enough, you go make money immediately (Tatum, Zion, etc.).  If you're not quite there, you still have foreign leagues, G Leagues, etc. (Goodwin, French, Love, Kwamain, etc.).  I always thought you were getting paid on scholarship to big(ger) schools with payouts being the tuition and sundry items surrounding them.  Now we need more.  And you are not paying for their profiting off their Name, Image and Likeness because you're just giving them money first, then reverse engineering it so it fits the spirit of the law.  I am still curious what Nigel Pack is doing to get his $200k from Miami of Florida.

As for Nesbitt, interesting that the shooting sleeve is his prominent trademark.  Short of family, who's buying those?  

HP points out that Holmes stayed at Dayton by citing his love for the atmosphere, culture and Obi Toppin.  Larry Hughes went to Saint Louis U.  Junior is here without even a scholarship.  Some things break that way.  Every player on Ohio State's roster will get $50k to $100k this year.  EVERY PLAYER????? Ohio State has 14 guys on the roster (likely including walk-ons).  That's a range of $700k to $1.4m just to field a team.  Six are freshmen.  Not a one has a household name.  And it's being done to profit on their Name, Image and Likeness.  In what?  Tattoos?    Call it what it is ..... pay for play.  Disguised professionalism.  

I'd love to be in the room when SLU officials sit down to figure all this out.  A fly on the wall just to hear how it's being discussed.  Sounds like another investigative journalism topic for a podcast or two.

I hope Saint Louis University can stay competitive in terms of teams on the floor.  It all becomes mercenary to me.  Breaking my 65 years of learned bias will be tough to accomplish.

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18 hours ago, kshoe said:

There absolutely has to be a sliding wage scale for NIL. That's kind of the point of NIL; not everyone is equal on a team or across sports and a player should be compensated based on how good he is or how much value he can add by marketing his name image and likeness.

How collective funds get allocated will technically not be done by the coach as it isn't allowed by the NCAA, and in some ways I suspect the coaches appreciate not being involved directly as it should ease the issue of kids coming to him and saying they want more money. But we all know how it works in the real world as coaches will undoubtedly talk to the administrators of the NIL collectives and have input into how much each player gets.

It has enormous potential to impact the locker room comradery as good players will get paid more, etc. But in fairness, every single one of them will be working for pay in a few years whether on a basketball team or at a job and salaries are rarely the same among friends.

Finally, $130k annually for the budget of a collective simply isn't going to cut it if SLU wants to remain relevant in college basketball. Think numbers more like $500k to get into the right ball-park. How that market develops over time is anyone's guess (I could see plausible arguments for it going up or down dramatically as time passes) but that's probably about right for teams in the 25-75 range these days.   

I think you're correct on all points. 

Sliding scale is absolutely accurate. The 13th man on the roster isn't getting the same as the 1st. College players are pretty self aware of their rank on the team. Collectives can also make extra payments at the end of the year if a dude blew up throughout the year. Their name, image, and likeness is worth more when they're a starter on the team than when they were 13th man.

$130k isn't going to cut it long term for a top 25 expectation but it would have been top 40 for this year. Getting out ahead of this is the most important part right now. Every day there isn't something setup is another day that a recruit and their dad are coming on campus asking the coaches what their son can expect in the NIL world. When a coach can say "Hey we have the Billiken Collective that is set up and they are paying every guy on the roster a base level amount" it can make a huge difference.

$500k seems like a correct, but possibly high, number to me. That would give you a budget of 75k for 2 guys, 50k for 3 guys, 35k for your 6th/7th sots, and 30-10k for each of the remaining guys going down. You could also get a decent walk on like Hughes and give him some money as well. I don't think any coach wants a ton of playable guys on the roster, but will be interesting to see if they start trying to get an extra dude or two via walk-on/NIL collective type deals.  

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1 hour ago, Taj79 said:

HP points out that Holmes stayed at Dayton by citing his love for the atmosphere, culture and Obi Toppin.  Larry Hughes went to Saint Louis U.  Junior is here without even a scholarship.  Some things break that way.  Every player on Ohio State's roster will get $50k to $100k this year.  EVERY PLAYER????? Ohio State has 14 guys on the roster (likely including walk-ons).  That's a range of $700k to $1.4m just to field a team.  Six are freshmen.  Not a one has a household name.  And it's being done to profit on their Name, Image and Likeness.  In what?  Tattoos?    Call it what it is ..... pay for play.  Disguised professionalism.  

I'd love to be in the room when SLU officials sit down to figure all this out.  A fly on the wall just to hear how it's being discussed.  Sounds like another investigative journalism topic for a podcast or two.

I hope Saint Louis University can stay competitive in terms of teams on the floor.  It all becomes mercenary to me.  Breaking my 65 years of learned bias will be tough to accomplish.

Taj, they say there are 5 stages of grief. I've been through them all; you just need to get past depression and into acceptance.

Denial: NIL will never happen, the NCAA will stop it. The NCAA will change the rules to provide guardrails. SLU doesn't really need to participate fully in it.

Anger: It pisses me off that these players are going to get paid a lot of money to play basketball. A scholarship and stipend should be enough. I already give a lot of money to SLU, now they want me to send money to a collective?

Bargaining: OK, if I'm going to send money to a collective, I'll just reduce the amount I send to SLU.

Depression: This just sucks and makes me sad. A somewhat pure sport has been ruined by professionalism. Are high school kids next? CYC? 

Acceptance: SLU better build a collective that I can contribute to sooner rather than later so we don't get left behind.

 

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17 hours ago, Cowboy II said:

-some global NIL info - according to business of college sports, if it can believed, they list 98 collectives - some schools have two with Penn St, MIchigan and VA Tech showing three - some schools on this list that make me raise an eyebrow include Bradley, Bryant, Butler, East Carolina, Florida Atlantic, Florida International, Georgia Institute of Technology (?),  Grambling, Grand Canyon, Illinois State and George Mason as the only A10 on the list

-something called on3 indicates that as of July 1, 2022 there are 120 known collectives or in the process of being formed

-quite a few are listed as being charities so contributions could be tax deductible

 

 

Georgia Tech is Georgia Institute of Technology. Confusing to me the first time I saw it that way too. 

The collectives listed as charities have most likely not received official 501c3 certification from the IRS yet. They are operating in that way, but it will be interesting to see how that shakes out. Most of them are set up in the way that the collective pays the players to then make appearances or do charitable work. If you set it up that way and get your 501c3 rejected, it could lead to some of these bigger schools multiple collectives imploding. The IRS takes 6+ months to approve these things if they are of any relevant size. 

Of the 120 - the vast majority of them are football focused. There are very few basketball specific - Bradley, Dayton, Butler, Marquette are the only regional ones. Zaga, Arizona Assist, and a couple others throughout the rest of the country. Some of these bigger schools have already seen competing football collectives fold because 3 or 4 groups did their own thing instead of combining to make things easier and better. 

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1 hour ago, Taj79 said:

What Auburn folks paid to fire football coaches is irrelevant.  You are in accounting but a different line item.  Coaches have been bought out/fired for decades.  Coaches today have clauses in their contracts that if they go elsewhere, their new team must play their old team (Will Wade and LSU/VCU), new schools must pay old schools, buyout clauses, and so on.  I don't agree with it but kudos to savvy agents negotiating such items for coaches.  I never said giving money to kids was undeserved (given all the places it could go).  If you had $5m and gave most of it to one player (Jayson Tatum) you'd still surround him with likely basketball dregs (the  Yarbroguhs, Bartleys and Jolleys and Gillmans of the world) and you'd be risking roster disharmony.  John Manning says I'm not coming there without $20k in NIL money ... do you risk it?  Likely, even thought in hindsight we know what a waste that would have been.

No disagreement with kshoe on his input.  While the overall interpretation might be "no good good players will populate your team" without NIL, that is still a sad situation to me.  It seems we are cultivating a 'more money' aspect to all this.  If you are good enough, you go make money immediately (Tatum, Zion, etc.).  If you're not quite there, you still have foreign leagues, G Leagues, etc. (Goodwin, French, Love, Kwamain, etc.).  I always thought you were getting paid on scholarship to big(ger) schools with payouts being the tuition and sundry items surrounding them.  Now we need more.  And you are not paying for their profiting off their Name, Image and Likeness because you're just giving them money first, then reverse engineering it so it fits the spirit of the law.  I am still curious what Nigel Pack is doing to get his $200k from Miami of Florida.

As for Nesbitt, interesting that the shooting sleeve is his prominent trademark.  Short of family, who's buying those?  

HP points out that Holmes stayed at Dayton by citing his love for the atmosphere, culture and Obi Toppin.  Larry Hughes went to Saint Louis U.  Junior is here without even a scholarship.  Some things break that way.  Every player on Ohio State's roster will get $50k to $100k this year.  EVERY PLAYER????? Ohio State has 14 guys on the roster (likely including walk-ons).  That's a range of $700k to $1.4m just to field a team.  Six are freshmen.  Not a one has a household name.  And it's being done to profit on their Name, Image and Likeness.  In what?  Tattoos?    Call it what it is ..... pay for play.  Disguised professionalism.  

I'd love to be in the room when SLU officials sit down to figure all this out.  A fly on the wall just to hear how it's being discussed.  Sounds like another investigative journalism topic for a podcast or two.

I hope Saint Louis University can stay competitive in terms of teams on the floor.  It all becomes mercenary to me.  Breaking my 65 years of learned bias will be tough to accomplish.

Taj, the whole issue of NILs assumes an economy with abundant money which retains its value. This makes it possible to pay large amounts to, at least, a few  players per team. Money may become scarce or less abundant than it has been, or conversely it may become valueless. Both of these situations have actually happened in countries like Germany, Argentina, Zimbabwe. If either of these two opposite outcomes occurs with the USD in the not very distant future, the NILs system cannot work as predicted.

Kshoe, I have no doubt you will contribute to such a collective, and I have no doubt that you know others that will do so as well. But this is here and now. How long your contributions, as well as the other donor's, may be maintained depends upon what happens to the availability and value of the USD.

 

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9 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

I've accepted there are more good basketball players than there are spots on P6 teams, no matter what their NIL package is.  P6 teams will raid mid-major rosters for the best players and cut perfectly good basketball players to make room for them.  Embrace the farm system.

Collectives at a SLU level should be focused on retention efforts. Someone like Yuri - if he's making $75k here, is he really looking around that much if he's happy with his role and his money? 

Someone like Javonte - could $75k plus his room and board keep him around for his extra year? 

Collectives can help reduce the farm system effect. 

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Well, I don't think the sport has been ruined just yet by professionalism.  It's been going on at different levels since Eddie Sutton's bag man was dropping gym bags full of money to recruits.  Or Pitino with his hookers.  Or the tat scandal at tOSU that ruined Jim Tressel.  The money men and the FBI at Arizona.  

I don't see denial or anger in my makeup based on your definitions.  Denial is certainly out of the window.  I can accept depression with more to follow on that subject as this all plays out at SLU.  I haven't accepted it until more facts concerning SLU are know.  Bargaining seems to be the way to go but given our illustrious track record (charter plaes, ice cream cones, top 50 program failure, one significant donor) I will take a wait-n-see attitude with SLU.  

Taking retreads from P6 programs is not my cup of tea.  I'd rather root for a Justin Johnson for five years hoping he eventually turns a corner.  In the current landscape, having kids for three, four, five year just won't happen.  The grass will always be greener.  As three-star says welcome to the new farm system normal.  if I'm Virginia, I've already approached Jimerson.  C'mon home kid.  Ditto DePaul with Sincere Parker.  All I can do is wait-n-see.

Given our demonstrated inability in having rich donors supporting athletics at SLU, coupled with some folks (roy) belief that our BOT and Pestello are not pro-athletics, I can't see this being any good for SLU.  But I agree some sort of level playing field is indeed needed.  The rich will get richer.  I can't help but think of Dayton where they sell out exhibition games while we draw in the hundreds.  Season ticket holders who don't come to games.  If I were a billionaire, I'd like to think I could free up a couple million and even run our program's NIL collective.  Unfortunately, I'm not.

JMM28's point is a valid one --- retention.  But in order to identify a Yuri or a Javonte, I would think we need to get them in here first.  Would you offer those guys such amounts without demonstrated ability?  And if they have that one year of greatness, can our offer compete with $100k or $200k offers elsewhere.  What woudl you offer a Tremaine Isabell or a Javn Bess vis-s-vis Cart'are Gordon or Jordan Nesbitt.  Which didn't end well anyway.   Again only time will tell.

Good points by all --- I think I'll bury my head in the sand and see how all this plays out when I come up for air.

 

Thanks.  Great discussion.

 

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