slufan13 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, MattyMo213 said: Okay so upon further inspection of the apartment directory, only Bishop and Graves are listed as residents. No other players, including AD. Probably doesn't mean anything so don't look too far into it. I'm definitely looking too far into it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlarry Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 11 minutes ago, MattyMo213 said: Okay so upon further inspection of the apartment directory, only Bishop and Graves are listed as residents. No other players, including AD. Probably doesn't mean anything so don't look too far into it. Go knock on their door and ask them what the hell is going on. joe_davola and David King like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 39 minutes ago, DeSmetBilliken said: If the players are cleared, SLU can spin this as a teaching moment and emphasize the importance of following the process and fully analyzing the situation. They can also use this to show that allegations will be taken seriously. With that said, if the information from Cowboy's post is what is being dealt with here, the obvious question is why did this take so long? You could've accomplished everything in my above paragraph in much less time. Ive suggested before that if the players are cleared, there should be resignations turned in over the delay in this process. There is one qualifier I'd add, and that is that this should only happen if you can prove there was an unreasonable delay in this process, i.e it can be shown that early on it was determined that the conduct wasn't worthy of disciplinary action, but someone gave a direction to draw this process out, which unfairly prejudiced the players. Don't hold your breath - no resignations are coming. The school will do what you said in your first paragraph. At this point the best we can hope on is to get the players back ASAP. Any chance of anything else happening is like waiting for the police to apologize or the IRS. I am confused by the info Cowboy shared - most of what he posted is what I had learned from various sources over this period of time - what I don't get is why the one girl is still being allowed to push this matter. What is also confusing is why the man would not know why the 4th player was allowed to play - fairly common knowledge that the girl who fingered him recanted the story and he was never in anybody's cross hairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufan13 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 I'm convinced that the SLU administration genuinely believes that by not saying "the three players are suspended for sexual assault" that they are protecting the player's privacy and reputations even though ESPN put up a graphic that the 3 players were suspended for sexual assault and every Durando article has mentioned that the 3 players aren't playing while the title ix investigation goes on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adman Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 4 hours ago, Clock_Tower said: Adman. The problem, though, is that Title IX which is a federal statute from 1972 designed to provide additional opportunities to women (scholarships...) has now turned into the mechanism to right all social norms on liberal campuses. Title IX apparently applies to non-scholarship students as well as to non-students. Yes, reasonable precautions are usually taken but I do not believe that every accused has been banned from every school building/quad area because the accuser may be there. Also, we have seen other schools allow their players to play during the investigation and a large amount of these Title IX violations occur between the male athletes and the others they usually come in contact with (women's basketball team, other women's teams, cheerleaders, student staffers, etc You're preaching to the choir, Clock. My original post on this subject shares this sentiment. Title IX is so slanted towards the accuser. Very, very frustrating. I was wondering about cross-Title IX complaints as a solution. Perhaps a separate criminal complaint? I don't know. But definitely a problem. And the time it has taken just as big a problem. BTW, from everything I've read from the dept of education and SLU's own policy, my understanding is that Title IX does NOT apply to non-students. Agree that other schools have allowed players to play during investigation. But I'm not sure if in those specific instances, it is has been 100% confirmed that the accusers were part of athletic dept operations. My point was that IF our accusers were among this group, I could see not being able to play as a reasonable precaution. Then my strong feeling was that if players couldn't play, in the interest of fairness to both parties, the accusers should have to sit out or have equal interim measure, too. But then I reconsidered after I was reminded by a good atty friend the chilling effect this would cause. And I think those of us with sisters, daughters, moms would understand. On its face, the punishment of an accuser simply for bringing forward a sexual assault would be wrong. So perhaps the solution - if the accused are eventually absolved - is the filing of false accusation lawsuits. I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufan13 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 I can understand the gameday only suspension if the accusers were cheerleaders but at the same time I still don't think it's the right punishment. If anything, I feel like it could make matters worse because now this cheerleader is out there with a group of guys who are pissed off that some of their best players are suspended for what were "consensual" activities in their eyes. If you truly think the players are a threat to the women, I'm not sure that pissing them off and suspending them from games is a smart move. That's an area where I could actually see them retaliating and doing something about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufan13 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Question that was discussed about a month ago when we all thought any normal administration would have had this wrapped up.....If the initial ruling is in favor of the players, should the players be allowed to play during the appeal process? I would say yes but interested in other thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgeldmacher Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 12 minutes ago, slufan13 said: Question that was discussed about a month ago when we all thought any normal administration would have had this wrapped up.....If the initial ruling is in favor of the players, should the players be allowed to play during the appeal process? I would say yes but interested in other thoughts. I think that the clear answer is "yes." The answer to the question, should they have been allowed to play all along is also "yes." The real question is whether Pesty and Krafty (I like when someone used that to describe them above) will allow them to play. My guess is "no." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 15 minutes ago, slufan13 said: Question that was discussed about a month ago when we all thought any normal administration would have had this wrapped up.....If the initial ruling is in favor of the players, should the players be allowed to play during the appeal process? I would say yes but interested in other thoughts. Not sure how they would not - but I guess who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almaman Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 1 hour ago, dlarry said: Go knock on their door and ask them what the hell is going on. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clock_Tower Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 47 minutes ago, Adman said: You're preaching to the choir, Clock. My original post on this subject shares this sentiment. Title IX is so slanted towards the accuser. Very, very frustrating. I was wondering about cross-Title IX complaints as a solution. Perhaps a separate criminal complaint? I don't know. But definitely a problem. And the time it has taken just as big a problem. BTW, from everything I've read from the dept of education and SLU's own policy, my understanding is that Title IX does NOT apply to non-students. Agree that other schools have allowed players to play during investigation. But I'm not sure if in those specific instances, it is has been 100% confirmed that the accusers were part of athletic dept operations. My point was that IF our accusers were among this group, I could see not being able to play as a reasonable precaution. Then my strong feeling was that if players couldn't play, in the interest of fairness to both parties, the accusers should have to sit out or have equal interim measure, too. But then I reconsidered after I was reminded by a good atty friend the chilling effect this would cause. And I think those of us with sisters, daughters, moms would understand. On its face, the punishment of an accuser simply for bringing forward a sexual assault would be wrong. So perhaps the solution - if the accused are eventually absolved - is the filing of false accusation lawsuits. I don't know. Accusers cannot possibly be expected to miss or sit anything out not only for the chilling effect you reference but also because there would be no basis behind them sitting anything out. Now, had the boys filed counter-Title IX charges, then that would be a different story requiring both sit out (or neither sit out). My suggestion, again, is to file the counter-Title IX charges to keep the boys playing and see what SLU does. Had the boys done so, and still had to sit out, then the boys could always dismiss or withdraw their claims if they thought their claim(s) would make the investigation too complex and/or drag things out too long (much longer than the original 60 days). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billboy1 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Agree-this should be a two edge sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prebilliken Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 3 hours ago, 615Billiken said: I believe this song is relevant to S2 for multiple reason. Potential 2017-2018 Billiken season anthem? Probably a NSFW video for most of the office folks. Just saying. Fire song tho. Fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 1 hour ago, cheeseman said: Don't hold your breath - no resignations are coming. The school will do what you said in your first paragraph. At this point the best we can hope on is to get the players back ASAP. Any chance of anything else happening is like waiting for the police to apologize or the IRS. I am confused by the info Cowboy shared - most of what he posted is what I had learned from various sources over this period of time - what I don't get is why the one girl is still being allowed to push this matter. What is also confusing is why the man would not know why the 4th player was allowed to play - fairly common knowledge that the girl who fingered him recanted the story and he was never in anybody's cross hairs. -the aspect of one girl pushing the matter was not discussed, the aspect of one girl not being able to be found since the semester ended as she indicated she wanted nothing more to do with this S2 was mentioned, let's hope the U is not waiting for her to be at class on Jan 16 -Mr Graves said he and other parents ares very confused about the 4th player being able to play while his son is not able to play, I'm not sure what is fairly common knowledge and what isn't but he said they have been given no explanation when they have asked many times about this part of S2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufan13 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Cowboy said: -the aspect of one girl pushing the matter was not discussed, the aspect of one girl not being able to be found since the semester ended as she indicated she wanted nothing more to do with this S2 was mentioned, let's hope the U is not waiting for her to be at class on Jan 16 -Mr Graves said he and other parents ares very confused about the 4th player being able to play while his son is not able to play, I'm not sure what is fairly common knowledge and what isn't but he said they have been given no explanation when they have asked many times about this part of S2 Thanks for all the info. Appreciate all of it a lot. Anything else interesting that was discussed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, Cowboy said: -the aspect of one girl pushing the matter was not discussed, the aspect of one girl not being able to be found since the semester ended as she indicated she wanted nothing more to do with this S2 was mentioned, let's hope the U is not waiting for her to be at class on Jan 16 -Mr Graves said he and other parents ares very confused about the 4th player being able to play while his son is not able to play, I'm not sure what is fairly common knowledge and what isn't but he said they have been given no explanation when they have asked many times about this part of S2 My guess is it has to do with the fact that the third girl recanted her claim almost immediately. If the fourth player only had sexual contact with that girl, there is no case to pursue with him. You can't go forward with a case against someone if the girl involved is saying nothing happened that would violate Title IX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 5 minutes ago, slufan13 said: Thanks for all the info. Appreciate all of it a lot. Anything else interesting that was discussed? -here's a shocker, he has a lawyer and plans to use them -this is me guessing, I am guessing if SLU exonerates, reinstates or whatever they will call it, the U will require a signature that no further action can be taken against the U 1 minute ago, brianstl said: My guess is it has to do with the fact that the third girl recanted her claim almost immediately. If the fourth player only had sexual contact with that girl, there is no case to pursue with him. You can't go forward with a case against someone if the girl involved is saying nothing happened that would violate Title IX. -why not tell the other parents if this is the case? -according to Mr Graves all of the girls have given different stories at different times which is another reason nothing criminal was pursued Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 also it has been my understanding that not only did the third girl recant the story, she isnt a slu student. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adman Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 28 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said: Accusers cannot possibly be expected to miss or sit anything out not only for the chilling effect you reference but also because there would be no basis behind them sitting anything out. Now, had the boys filed counter-Title IX charges, then that would be a different story requiring both sit out (or neither sit out). My suggestion, again, is to file the counter-Title IX charges to keep the boys playing and see what SLU does. Had the boys done so, and still had to sit out, then the boys could always dismiss or withdraw their claims if they thought their claim(s) would make the investigation too complex and/or drag things out too long (much longer than the original 60 days). Yeah, I've been thinking about counter Title IX charges for weeks. But for this to hold water, the players would have to have a believable story about how they did not consent to the activities or were too drunk to consent which, with video available, would be relatively unbelievable. That's why I was leaning towards threat of post-adjudication charges - criminal and with SLU - if falsely accused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgstl Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 17 minutes ago, Cowboy said: -the aspect of one girl pushing the matter was not discussed, the aspect of one girl not being able to be found since the semester ended as she indicated she wanted nothing more to do with this S2 was mentioned, let's hope the U is not waiting for her to be at class on Jan 16 -Mr Graves said he and other parents ares very confused about the 4th player being able to play while his son is not able to play, I'm not sure what is fairly common knowledge and what isn't but he said they have been given no explanation when they have asked many times about this part of S2 IIRC, it was originally 4 players, but the girl later on said it was only 3 and that the 4th was a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Cowboy said: -here's a shocker, he has a lawyer and plans to use them -this is me guessing, I am guessing if SLU exonerates, reinstates or whatever they will call it, the U will require a signature that no further action can be taken against the U -why not tell the other parents if this is the case? -according to Mr Graves all of the girls have given different stories at different times which is another reason nothing criminal was pursued Just another guess, SLU doesn't want to risk violating FERPA by talking about another student. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufan13 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 5 minutes ago, Cowboy said: -according to Mr Graves all of the girls have given different stories at different times which is another reason nothing criminal was pursued Take this line along with the very original story saying that there were 6 players involved and I think that even the final stories from the girls that are on record have to be questioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billboy1 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 If indeed one of the girls is a cheerleader they should not have been allowed to cheer at any games if the S2 players could not play. This makes no sense . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLU_Lax Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 9 minutes ago, Cowboy said: -this is me guessing, I am guessing if SLU exonerates, reinstates or whatever they will call it, the U will require a signature that no further action can be taken against the U This is me guessing (and I am only guessing on top of your guess), but I do not think this would be an enforceable stipulation. If they are reinstated early, I guess the school could say that their punishment would be reduced in return for the players agreeing to a hold harmless agreement with the school. If the school simply says "this process is over, but to continue to be a student and to be activated on the basketball team you must sign this hold harmless agreement", it is completely unenforceable as there is no "consideration" being given to the players in return for that hold harmless. The school would then be saying that you joined school and the team under this understanding, now that you are here we are adding this requirement or we are going to take things away from you. I could also see that the school (private or not) would be viewed as trying to improperly limit the boys rights that are guaranteed by federal law/regulations. Again, I am way out of my area of knowledge. I just have trouble viewing this as an enforceable requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billboy1 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Believe whole Title IX is unconstitutional because of the way it does not allow for due process the way schools use it. HenryB likes this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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