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1 hour ago, Clock_Tower said:

But at some point, guys who don't belong on college campuses should not be given chance after chance -- only because his God given skills happen to be basketball as opposed to band/drama/debate team. Too many athletes "throw away" their talent, opportunity(res), careers... away because of the enablers.   Sometimes the best thing you can do for a guy is nothing.

As I said in my post, I agree. But that does not mean you cannot express concern and sadness when you see someone undercutting himself. Also showing joy or admiration for events like this should be a total no-no. What do I mean by joy or admiration? I mean comments like he got what he had coming, or the comment dividing people into "decent nice" people and "a-holes."

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1 hour ago, Clock_Tower said:

But at some point, guys who don't belong on college campuses should not be given chance after chance -- only because his God given skills happen to be basketball as opposed to band/drama/debate team. Too many athletes "throw away" their talent, opportunity(res), careers... away because of the enablers.   Sometimes the best thing you can do for a guy is nothing.

100%

 

1 hour ago, Clock_Tower said:

I certainly do not believe that poor and disadvantage people are a-holes.   If that is what is being said about Gordon (and indirectly to you and others)

Gordon trying to punch SLU players and saying "f u" to Ford and staff is enough for me to make a judgement call on him. 

Honestly though there isnt much else to say about this matter. Just interesting to see if he even ends up anywhere

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1 hour ago, Old guy said:

As I said in my post, I agree. But that does not mean you cannot express concern and sadness when you see someone undercutting himself. Also showing joy or admiration for events like this should be a total no-no. What do I mean by joy or admiration? I mean comments like he got what he had coming, or the comment dividing people into "decent nice" people and "a-holes."

Yes. You never condoned Gordon’s behavior or second guessed Coach Ford getting rid of him but we put our eggs in Gordon’s basket, he let us down and left, we were short handed last year bc of him, we could have offered our scholarship to a different big, we have no veteran big now to complement French bc of him and I cannot fault a Billiken fan (or DePaul fan) who vents his frustration against Gordon bc of his continued selfish behavior. 

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No.   I say really haven't vented on this 18 year old.   No a-hole comments from me.   Offer more an explanation.   

Again, I don't know the details regarding Gordon and truly don't care to know the details of him.   Risk/reward.   Vianney took the risk, received from good production from a young freshman but Webster won the championship.   Had things worked out for SLU or DePaul, then these programs could have tasted the success that its rivals have.   And for SLU/Ford, we did not commit for all that long, the upside likely was there for Coach Ford and I don't he has set back local recruiting for us.

Again, I have not vented on Gordon though I feel SLU has been vindicated - that it was all Gordon and not Ford, our coaches, our players....   Now if you consider me saying he does not belong in college, that he was a bad teammate and citizen, then so be it.  But to wish him future success b/c he is only 18, he may have come from a disadvantage background... seems more like an enabler.

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6 hours ago, Old guy said:

OK now, so your problem here is that you felt let down or betrayed by Gordon and therefore you decided it was OK to vent your frustrations on an 18 year old. Very nice Clock!

I guess I'll address the elephant in the room here. How can you come down so hard with this righteous, holier than thou attitude after the things you have said and continue to say about Micky Pearson. 

Seems incredibly hypocritical.

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1 hour ago, JohnnyJumpUp said:

How old was Mickey Pearson when he committed and decommitted?

 

1 hour ago, NashvilleBilliken said:

I guess I'll address the elephant in the room here. How can you come down so hard with this righteous, holier than thou attitude after the things you have said and continue to say about Micky Pearson. 

Seems incredibly hypocritical.

Mickey Peason was never in the SLU team. He did not commit to SLU in good faith nor did he ever intend to come to SLU. He thought he was too good for us. He also came up with a pack of lies to justify (Boo Hoo my granny is old and sick...) ending his commitment to  SLU. This is a very different case from Gordon who came to SLU in good faith and tried to make it at SLU but just could not do it. I will say it again, I hope Mickey Pearson winds up his time in college riding the pine. And no, I am not in the least apologetic for wishing him the worst.

 

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2 hours ago, Clock_Tower said:

No.   I say really haven't vented on this 18 year old.   No a-hole comments from me.   Offer more an explanation.   

Again, I don't know the details regarding Gordon and truly don't care to know the details of him.   Risk/reward.   Vianney took the risk, received from good production from a young freshman but Webster won the championship.   Had things worked out for SLU or DePaul, then these programs could have tasted the success that its rivals have.   And for SLU/Ford, we did not commit for all that long, the upside likely was there for Coach Ford and I don't he has set back local recruiting for us.

Again, I have not vented on Gordon though I feel SLU has been vindicated - that it was all Gordon and not Ford, our coaches, our players....   Now if you consider me saying he does not belong in college, that he was a bad teammate and citizen, then so be it.  But to wish him future success b/c he is only 18, he may have come from a disadvantage background... seems more like an enabler.

On the same vein you seem more of a disabler. I am not proposing that all his mistakes should be glossed over, something I already talked at length about. On the other hand I am sorry for the kid.

 

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People keep bringing up “excuses” for Gordon, but I still haven’t seen who is making those excuses. He makes bad decisions, he pays the consequences for those decisions. I think the only point some have made is that you can still feel bad for someone who also happens to have self-destructive tendencies.

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On 9/1/2019 at 2:37 PM, Old guy said:

OK cgeldmacher, if you make this kind of distinction to your prior post I will agree. Many people who live their lives in privileged status are complete a-holes as you say. I am sure that sentence comes from having met perhaps many people that considered themselves superior and more entitled than yourself. Did they look down at you when you did not humbly kiss their rear ends? I am sure you have met them, this is a most common occurrence in the corporate world. However let's get back to Gordon. Some people who come from a difficult background manage to get over it and move ahead. I think the key to judging their behavior is whether they are trying or not. I think Gordon was the real deal and was trying, he just could not do it. I just wish he had been able to overcome his issues, but he sadly could not. Your initial post rubbed me the wrong way.

The rest of the present post AGAIN rubs me the wrong way. Stop trying to hide you feelings of intrinsic social superiority over lower human beings who do not behave in accordance with YOUR standards. You sir have absolutely neither the knowledge nor the background to judge either me or Gordon in any way. You sir are a bigot.

I wrote a long post to follow this statement but decided not to post it. I will proceed by fully agreeing with Sheltiedave's post. Good day to you sir, I shall place you into the ignore category.

 

Wow.  Your ignorance is unsettling, and I am likewise done with you and your strange bi-polar schtick.  F-U!!!!  Nothing in my prior posts could be considered bigoted.  I said that some people are a-holes and some are not, and that you shouldn't excuse everyone from a difficult background from poor behavior.  I said that many folks from difficult backgrounds are not a-holes.  Those are the points that I made.  If you read any more into my posts such that you believe that I am bigoted and that I am hiding feelings of intrinsic social superiority over lower human beings (can't believe you used that term) then you have difficulty grasping and understanding the English language.  Please don't ever identify yourself to me at a game, or you and I will have issues.  I don't hide behind a moniker like others, and I stand behind everything I post.

Moderators, I apologize for my strong words, but this idiot is over the line.

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17 hours ago, Clock_Tower said:

Old Guy

I went back and read the prior posts and sure I am seeing the same things you are.   I certainly do not believe that poor and disadvantage people are a-holes.   If that is what is being said about Gordon (and indirectly to you and others), then I strongly take your side.   Frankly, I don't know what Gordon's background really is/was like.   No idea if he was truly poor or not.  I know the most guys who go to Vianney and are educated by the Marianists are not poor and disadvantaged but I also know that scholarships are given by the private schools (Vianney being one of them) and possibly that occurred here.  I also know that some of the wealthiest people in town live in the Webster Groves school district which is where Gordon finished high school.   Then, again, there are some areas within Webster Groves which do have poor and disadvantaged people.   And if Gordon had a poor and disadvantage background, then I do see how this topic could have touched a nerve.

To me, though, we do have more work to do in this country with regard to socio-economic problems/issues, race relations, personal responsibility...  With that said, I do believe that our academic settings are probably further along, more "progressive" and more favorable and accommodating (as compared to the workforce and society in general) to those who come from more disadvantaged backgrounds and that the academic settings also afford special accommodations and benefits to those with athletic skills and abilities.  In that regard, and assuming Gordon came from a disadvantaged background, I suspect the opportunity, scholarship money and extra tutoring offered by Vianney, SLU and DePaul to Gordon was quite generous.

But at some point, guys who don't belong on college campuses should not be given chance after chance -- only because his God given skills happen to be basketball as opposed to band/drama/debate team. Too many athletes "throw away" their talent, opportunity(res), careers... away because of the enablers.   Sometimes the best thing you can do for a guy is nothing.

Clock, I respect your opinion and like reading your posts, but have to take issue with this.  Your post above seems to agree with (the other guy) about his claim that I said "poor and disadvantaged people are a-holes."  That was never said!  I am concerned that your conversation with (that guy) seems to imply that you agree that I said something like that when you read my posts.  I want it cleared up that you did not read that in any of my posts.  Can you please do that?

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I've got to say ... I don't care.  I feel somewhat vindicated that he won't play at DePaul and see this as just another talented kid on the scrapheap of college basketball players "who knew better" and failed to bother to listen.  Second coming of Cameron Beischeid.  Why are we wasting any air time to this kid.  He became ... in the words of this board ... a "tool" last December when he high-tailed it north.  Now he's done it again.  Just glad he's not our problem anymore and doesn't need to occupy our air time. 

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5 minutes ago, cgeldmacher said:

Clock, I respect your opinion and like reading your posts, but have to take issue with this.  Your post above seems to agree with (the other guy) about his claim that I said "poor and disadvantaged people are a-holes."  That was never said!  I am concerned that your conversation with (that guy) seems to imply that you agree that I said something like that when you read my posts.  I want it cleared up that you did not read that in any of my posts.  Can you please do that?

Yes.  I re-read your posts last evening and do not see bigoted remarks in them.   I do believe that both you and Old Guy (both of you respected posters with points I enjoy reading) were simply talking past each other and that Old Guy perceived your comments in that regard.  Now, I can appreciate the raw nerves this topic brings to Old Guy and others and far be it from me to say that no one (Old Guy) is allowed feel sorry for Gordon throwing his talent away.  Very likely, there are many on this Board (who have not posted and will not post) who might see themselves in Gordon (throwing away a real opportunity due to youth, inexperience, bad advice...) and not just in a basketball/sports aspect.   At the same time, Gordon is "dead" to me and I don't really care if succeeds with his next college or professional team.  I am not actively rooting for or against Gordon any more than I am with any other player who quits our team and goes elsewhere.   Is there a little satisfaction to know that the issue was not SLU (did the same thing at DePaul)?  Sure.  But he is an 18 year old kid - and kids can and do make mistakes.  Far be it also from me to condemn anyone who point out more examples of his immature behavior and decision-making.  

To me, coming from adversity (a poor and disadvantage background), but being a nice guy (good teammate) throughout, is an extra credit to such person.   But you are correct, not all poor people are a-holes and not all privileged people are good people either.  To me, I am amazed that how student athletes take  for granted how hard it is to get into these colleges with regularly discuss.   And how expensive they are.   And how so many are given full ride scholarships which exceed their academic merit and accomplishments - and yet they take it for granted and throw it away.   Most college basketball players in the NCAA and at SLU are African American. Many (not most) college basketball players of all races come from disadvantaged homes.  Many (not most) college athletes are on their college campuses despite their prior grades, ACT scores and study habits.   All college campuses go out of their way to accommodate and help transition disadvantaged kids/student athletes into the mainstream of the college campuses with counselors, tutors, etc..  All these kids are given free, full-ride scholarships.   To me, the accomplishments (on and off the field) of guys like Jackie Robinson and of guys James Meredith (first black student at Ole Miss) are that much more special.   

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9 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

Yes.  I re-read your posts last evening and do not see bigoted remarks in them.   I do believe that both you and Old Guy (both of you respected posters with points I enjoy reading) were simply talking past each other and that Old Guy perceived your comments in that regard.  Now, I can appreciate the raw nerves this topic brings to Old Guy and others and far be it from me to say that no one (Old Guy) is allowed feel sorry for Gordon throwing his talent away.  Very likely, there are many on this Board (who have not posted and will not post) who might see themselves in Gordon (throwing away a real opportunity due to youth, inexperience, bad advice...) and not just in a basketball/sports aspect.   At the same time, Gordon is "dead" to me and I don't really care if succeeds with his next college or professional team.  I am not actively rooting for or against Gordon any more than I am with any other player who quits our team and goes elsewhere.   Is there a little satisfaction to know that the issue was not SLU (did the same thing at DePaul)?  Sure.  But he is an 18 year old kid - and kids can and do make mistakes.  Far be it also from me to condemn anyone who point out more examples of his immature behavior and decision-making.  

To me, coming from adversity (a poor and disadvantage background), but being a nice guy (good teammate) throughout, is an extra credit to such person.   But you are correct, not all poor people are a-holes and not all privileged people are good people either.  To me, I am amazed that how student athletes take  for granted how hard it is to get into these colleges with regularly discuss.   And how expensive they are.   And how so many are given full ride scholarships which exceed their academic merit and accomplishments - and yet they take it for granted and throw it away.   Most college basketball players in the NCAA and at SLU are African American. Many (not most) college basketball players of all races come from disadvantaged homes.  Many (not most) college athletes are on their college campuses despite their prior grades, ACT scores and study habits.   All college campuses go out of their way to accommodate and help transition disadvantaged kids/student athletes into the mainstream of the college campuses with counselors, tutors, etc..  All these kids are given free, full-ride scholarships.   To me, the accomplishments (on and off the field) of guys like Jackie Robinson and of guys James Meredith (first black student at Ole Miss) are that much more special.   

Thank you for clearing that up.  I'm rather upset about Old Guy's statements, and won't put up with being called what he called me, especially in the way that he did.  I do have sympathy for Gordon.  He's got issues that are holding him back.  I'll say a prayer for him.  There, just did.

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CG, you two ARE talking past each other.

Apologize for the umbrage taken, but not meant, and get together for a beer. We are well past the point of CAG mattering in our basketball universe; we still should pray that the light goes on in his head and he takes advantage of his gifts to do good.

Hopefully we can stick a fork in this thread.

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