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Hometown hero: Jayson Tatum


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17 minutes ago, brianstl said:

A jump shot is the finished product.  It isn't raw talent.  It is something you learn.  You aren't born with a jump shot.

So Bill Russell isn't one of the greatest big men of all time because there was less black players then? Is Willie Mays not one of the greatest baseball players of all-time because a sizable  chunk of his best seasons happened when less than 7% of MLB players were black?

my reference to race was in response to your theory that there was more 'raw talent' in the 1950's. so if we're excluding jump shots, those guys had more, what, exactly? last I checked athleticism was a pretty big part of the NBA, and you're at least born with that, yea? 

the russell and mays comps are reallyyy trying to stretch what I said lol... huh? the mlb is at right around the same figure now, fwiw. 

doesn't take a genius to realize that macauley isn't in russell's stratosphere

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As I watch the Eastern Conference Finals, I'm really starting to dislike Jayson Tatum. Between spurning the Billikens, the constant whining, and the fact that he's the the new ESPN golden boy without

No doubt in my mind he would be be a billiken with Ford. Regardless he is doing a great job on all ends in the Playoffs and for the Celtics. Some have him picked for rookie of the year.   

Because his Dad played at SLU. Because his godfather is Larry Legend. Because potential 2022 SLU recruit Larry Hughes Jr is close with him. Because every big name recruit from STL looks up to him. Thi

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5 minutes ago, majerus mojo said:

my reference to race was in response to your theory that there was more 'raw talent' in the 1950's. so if we're excluding jump shots, those guys had more, what, exactly? last I checked athleticism was a pretty big part of the NBA, and you're at least born with that, yea? 

the russell and mays comps are reallyyy trying to stretch what I said lol... huh? the mlb is at right around the same figure now, fwiw. 

doesn't take a genius to realize that macauley isn't in russell's stratosphere

I don't think the raw talents was more in the 50's, it think it was probably just around the same.  

The percentage of players of African descent on MLB rosters today is almost double of what it was in Mays first decade as a player when you include players of Afro-Latino descent.  The percentage of white players on MLB rosters today are in the low 60's.  The percentage of white players on MLB rosters hit on all-time low in 2001 at 60.7% and has not really rebounded all that much in the last 17 seasons.

 

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Macauley was in Russell's stratosphere.  Russell was never going to play in St. Louis, and the Hawks didn't want a franchise black player.  The Hawks could have traded Russell for anyone in the league.  They chose to trade him for Ed Macauley.  

The general trend now in basketball, unlike some other sports, is to vastly downgrade early players.  Its become racist actually.  If Ed Macauley was black he would be lauded as a basketball pioneer.  He's white so he's slow, can't jump, and became a dinosaur when Black players came in the league.  Russell certainly dominated but Macauley, despite his "shortcomings based solely on race," more than held his own in the league and personally against him in matchups.  In the 90s Macauley was one of the 50 greatest players, 20 years later he's not in the conversation for top 100.  Meanwhile modern era bums like Melo are.  I saw one list that had Chris Webber as a better NBA player than Ed Macauley.  Absolutely ridiculous.  All the pre 1960 players get shafted like this.  You don't see baseball saying Babe Ruth was a fat man with skinny legs who couldn't run or play defense.  He's still the best ever, no matter what era he played in.  

Again to be considered a better player than Macauley Tatum will have to be a top 5 player in the NBA for at least 4-5 seasons without injuries.  Look at Tatum's contemporaries, Mitchell, Simmons, Giannis, Embiid, KAT, Davis is still only 26, the list goes on.  Tatum may become a consistent All star, but I think that is his ceiling.  All NBA first team you must be a transcendent player even to make it once.  To even just match Macauley's total of 3, you would probably end up as one of the top 30 players in history.  Russell, Iverson, Lucas, Pippen, Zeke, all those guys have just 3 all nba first teams.

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I don't subscribe to the notion that black = athletic, and I don't subscribe to the notion that white = smart.  Athletes of all races vary in all facets of the game from elite to "Eh, why don't you try something else?"  Little good comes out of stereotyping a guy or his game on the basis of his ethnicity.

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19 minutes ago, thetorch said:

Macauley was in Russell's stratosphere.  Russell was never going to play in St. Louis, and the Hawks didn't want a franchise black player.  The Hawks could have traded Russell for anyone in the league.  They chose to trade him for Ed Macauley.  

The general trend now in basketball, unlike some other sports, is to vastly downgrade early players.  Its become racist actually.  If Ed Macauley was black he would be lauded as a basketball pioneer.  He's white so he's slow, can't jump, and became a dinosaur when Black players came in the league.  Russell certainly dominated but Macauley, despite his "shortcomings based solely on race," more than held his own in the league and personally against him in matchups.  In the 90s Macauley was one of the 50 greatest players, 20 years later he's not in the conversation for top 100.  Meanwhile modern era bums like Melo are.  I saw one list that had Chris Webber as a better NBA player than Ed Macauley.  Absolutely ridiculous.  All the pre 1960 players get shafted like this.  You don't see baseball saying Babe Ruth was a fat man with skinny legs who couldn't run or play defense.  He's still the best ever, no matter what era he played in.  

Again to be considered a better player than Macauley Tatum will have to be a top 5 player in the NBA for at least 4-5 seasons without injuries.  Look at Tatum's contemporaries, Mitchell, Simmons, Giannis, Embiid, KAT, Davis is still only 26, the list goes on.  Tatum may become a consistent All star, but I think that is his ceiling.  All NBA first team you must be a transcendent player even to make it once.  To even just match Macauley's total of 3, you would probably end up as one of the top 30 players in history.  Russell, Iverson, Lucas, Pippen, Zeke, all those guys have just 3 all nba first teams.

I'm buying some of what you're selling, and I'll walk back my stratosphere comment, though in that case, it seems like macauley is one of the most slept on players in the history of the league. I had only vaguely heard of him before attending SLU, personally, and that's growing up as a celtics fan, where his number is retired.

noting how tough it is to make first-team all-NBA, I'm assuming you think if he was plopped into today's league he would have no problem replicating those three first-team appearances? that would certainly be impressive, and a lofty goal for tatum 

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49 minutes ago, thetorch said:

Macauley was in Russell's stratosphere.  Russell was never going to play in St. Louis, and the Hawks didn't want a franchise black player.  The Hawks could have traded Russell for anyone in the league.  They chose to trade him for Ed Macauley.  

The general trend now in basketball, unlike some other sports, is to vastly downgrade early players.  Its become racist actually.  If Ed Macauley was black he would be lauded as a basketball pioneer.  He's white so he's slow, can't jump, and became a dinosaur when Black players came in the league.  Russell certainly dominated but Macauley, despite his "shortcomings based solely on race," more than held his own in the league and personally against him in matchups.  In the 90s Macauley was one of the 50 greatest players, 20 years later he's not in the conversation for top 100.  Meanwhile modern era bums like Melo are.  I saw one list that had Chris Webber as a better NBA player than Ed Macauley.  Absolutely ridiculous.  All the pre 1960 players get shafted like this.  You don't see baseball saying Babe Ruth was a fat man with skinny legs who couldn't run or play defense.  He's still the best ever, no matter what era he played in.  

Again to be considered a better player than Macauley Tatum will have to be a top 5 player in the NBA for at least 4-5 seasons without injuries.  Look at Tatum's contemporaries, Mitchell, Simmons, Giannis, Embiid, KAT, Davis is still only 26, the list goes on.  Tatum may become a consistent All star, but I think that is his ceiling.  All NBA first team you must be a transcendent player even to make it once.  To even just match Macauley's total of 3, you would probably end up as one of the top 30 players in history.  Russell, Iverson, Lucas, Pippen, Zeke, all those guys have just 3 all nba first teams.

The story of about the Russell-Macauley trade is not really understood that well.  Fist off, the Hawks traded the second pick in the draft.  The deal was done before the draft.  The Celtics controlled the Hawks pick.  The Hawks didn't trade Bill Russell.  The first pick in that draft belonged to the Rochester Royals.  After the Celtics traded Macauley and Cliff Hagan (both future Hall of Fame players) to the Hawks, the Celtics owner got the Royals to agree to not take Russell with the first pick in exchange for Ice Capades (owned by the Celtics owner) going to Rochester for a week.

Macauley wanted to get traded to the Hawks because his son was ill.  One story is he was going to retire if he didn't get traded to the Hawks.

Edited by brianstl
To clarify that Macauley's son was ill
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36 minutes ago, Quality Is Job 1 said:

I don't subscribe to the notion that black = athletic, and I don't subscribe to the notion that white = smart.  Athletes of all races vary in all facets of the game from elite to "Eh, why don't you try something else?"  Little good comes out of stereotyping a guy or his game on the basis of his ethnicity.

Fully agree with you. 

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Comparing Tatum's athleticism and talent to Easy Ed is a fool's errand.  There is no doubt that modern athletes are more talented, better conditioned, and plan games faster and harder than in the past.  They're bigger, faster, stronger, more powerful, quicker.  Most of them train year round since 8th grade.  They don't have part time jobs in the off season.

Babe Ruth wouldn't be able to hit today's pitching.  Wayne Gretzky would be a skinny kid with talent that wouldn't hold up the speed of the NHL today (watch a video of an NHL game from the 80's if you question this).  Dan Dierdorf is in the NFL Hall of Fame and if he played today at his peak condition, he would be the smallest lineman in the league by far.

McCauley was one of the best players of his time.  Tatum might be that some day, but he's not there yet.  He would have to match McCauley's accolades to be considered the best player to come out of St. Louis.

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49 minutes ago, brianstl said:

Yes it was.

Bill Russell from the University of San Francisco was selected second overall by the St. Louis Hawks and immediately traded to the Boston Celtics for Ed Macauley and Cliff Hagan. Three players from this draft, Tom Heinsohn, Bill Russell, and K. C. Jones, have been inducted to the Basketball Hall of Fame.

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29 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

Yes it was.

Bill Russell from the University of San Francisco was selected second overall by the St. Louis Hawks and immediately traded to the Boston Celtics for Ed Macauley and Cliff Hagan. Three players from this draft, Tom Heinsohn, Bill Russell, and K. C. Jones, have been inducted to the Basketball Hall of Fame.

No it wasn’t.

If you don’t want to believe the Boston Globe, how about Red Auerbach?

https://books.google.com/books?id=1qmVEYZVpqMC&pg=PR17&dq=bill+russell+ice+capades&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IpNBUaqGGYrk4AOLrICIBg#v=onepage&q&f=false

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4 hours ago, brianstl said:

Macauley and Hagans Draft Rights for Russell’s Draft Rights.  This isn’t that difficult. 

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Just became first player in franchise history to score 20 or more in 5 playoff games in a row. That still sounds hard to believe but heard them say it twice. For a rookie, that still impressive.

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25 minutes ago, almaman said:

Just became first player in franchise history to score 20 or more in 5 playoff games in a row. That still sounds hard to believe but heard them say it twice. For a rookie, that still impressive.

I believe this is a first-year player record. Others have scored 20+ in 5+ games in a row, but not as rookies. 

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15 hours ago, almaman said:

correct I tried to edit. Still pretty amazing. Rich history up there. Did I hear them say Magic has the most in a row for league as a rookie?

 

 

Not sure the league record, but Donovan Mitchell opened his playoff career with 7 straight 20+ games with the Jazz. Snapped in Game 3 vs. HOU

Tatum is the youngest player ever with 5 straight 20+ postseason games 

 

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On May 4, 2018 at 1:39 PM, cgeldmacher said:

Comparing Tatum's athleticism and talent to Easy Ed is a fool's errand.  There is no doubt that modern athletes are more talented, better conditioned, and plan games faster and harder than in the past.  They're bigger, faster, stronger, more powerful, quicker.  Most of them train year round since 8th grade.  They don't have part time jobs in the off season.

Babe Ruth wouldn't be able to hit today's pitching.  Wayne Gretzky would be a skinny kid with talent that wouldn't hold up the speed of the NHL today (watch a video of an NHL game from the 80's if you question this).  Dan Dierdorf is in the NFL Hall of Fame and if he played today at his peak condition, he would be the smallest lineman in the league by far.

McCauley was one of the best players of his time.  Tatum might be that some day, but he's not there yet.  He would have to match McCauley's accolades to be considered the best player to come out of St. Louis.

How easily you dismiss Ruth - one of the great athletes of all time even in an era of non- productive off seasons & no personal trainers.  He would have made the HOF as a pitcher.  When asked if he could have hit .400 without swinging for the fences, he replied "no, I would've hit .500!"  Many of the great players had long careers that provide comparability across extended periods.  Look at the stats of the greats who started before and after him but shared several years of comparability and you'll see it.

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7 hours ago, Major Majerus said:

How easily you dismiss Ruth - one of the great athletes of all time even in an era of non- productive off seasons & no personal trainers.  He would have made the HOF as a pitcher.  When asked if he could have hit .400 without swinging for the fences, he replied "no, I would've hit .500!"  Many of the great players had long careers that provide comparability across extended periods.  Look at the stats of the greats who started before and after him but shared several years of comparability and you'll see it.

Aaaand he wouldn’t be able to hit today’s pitching.

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1 hour ago, Littlebill said:

Aaaand he wouldn’t be able to hit today’s pitching.

Highly unlikely.

Ruth had to bat against a bevy of shine baller and spit ball pitchers who had movement that even today's most wicked slider can't replicate.  Also until recently when we've seen a massive influx of 99+mph pitching the teens, 20s, and 30s had some of the fastest pitchers on record.  Walter Johnson could throw upwards of 100mph all game long.  Ruth himself reputedly threw in the mid to high 90s.

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7 hours ago, thetorch said:

Highly unlikely.

Ruth had to bat against a bevy of shine baller and spit ball pitchers who had movement that even today's most wicked slider can't replicate.  Also until recently when we've seen a massive influx of 99+mph pitching the teens, 20s, and 30s had some of the fastest pitchers on record.  Walter Johnson could throw upwards of 100mph all game long.  Ruth himself reputedly threw in the mid to high 90s.

I have heard (and believe) the claim that hitting a baseball is the toughest thing to do in all of sports.  While strength certainly adds distance to hit balls and conditioning helps run the bases (and of course is very important in fielding), there is a reason that Babe Ruth was the best.  His ability to hit a baseball would translate to any era.  I would like to see modern baseball players try to hit modern pitchers with the oversized and heavy bats that Babe Ruth had to use.

Mostly unrelated but.... this is why "minor" injuries can sideline baseball players for so long.  Tweaking your thumb or your wrist can sap all your power and make the difficult task of hitting a baseball and turn it into something that is impossible.  A broken thumb can sometimes (depending on severity and healing) can cost a player significant power for almost a year.

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22 hours ago, majerus mojo said:

Not sure the league record, but Donovan Mitchell opened his playoff career with 7 straight 20+ games with the Jazz. Snapped in Game 3 vs. HOU

Tatum is the youngest player ever with 5 straight 20+ postseason games 

 

omgggggggggggg thats sick 

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8 hours ago, thetorch said:

Highly unlikely.

Ruth had to bat against a bevy of shine baller and spit ball pitchers who had movement that even today's most wicked slider can't replicate.  Also until recently when we've seen a massive influx of 99+mph pitching the teens, 20s, and 30s had some of the fastest pitchers on record.  Walter Johnson could throw upwards of 100mph all game long.  Ruth himself reputedly threw in the mid to high 90s.

Twenty players have batted .400 and all came 1941 or earlier. I have a feeling hitting is a little more difficult nowadays...

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