The Aaron Hines Debate

[Pistol]

A lot of posters here seem to think he's earned a rotation spot and scholarship next season, and I can understand the sentiment - we won 12 games with a walk-on PG, so he must be doing something well, right? His A/TO numbers - 2.5/1.6 on the season - aren't too bad. He's played big minutes. But I hope the past few games put this argument to bed once and for all.

GW: 33 minutes, 0-6

Duquesne: 25 minutes, 0-6

Richmond: 40 minutes, 0-4

His shot selection is atrocious. He arguably cost us a shot at a win tonight and almost did against Duquesne by taking ill-advised shots in the final minute.

His shooting percentage this season: .315, including tonight. .315!

Next year, we've got Graves, Goodwin, French, Foreman, Henriquez, and Bess coming in and no fewer than four other players returning. Hines will be lucky to be the 11th man in the rotation. It doesn't matter whether or not we have a free scholarship and give it to him for his last year (as long as it's not using up a spot an incoming transfer could use). If he plays more than 5-6 minutes per game, it will be because something catastrophic has happened.

Hines played more than any walk-on would normally play. Consider it a lucky career.

Please end this nonsense.

[almaman]

Indeed if he sees any meaningful minutes season will be a big letdown. 

[kmbilliken]

If Neufeld transfers I wouldn't mind it if they gave him that scholarship for a year. Then it would be available for 2018 when we will need it.

[brianstl]

I want to thank Hines for paying a lot if money to play over 30 minutes a night.  The season would have been a true train wreck without him.  He deserves multiple post season team awards.

I really don't want to put him down in any way.  I feel he earned a pass on that given his situation.  So, I will just say thank you and leave it at that.

[Pistol]

8 minutes ago, kmbilliken said:

If Neufeld transfers I wouldn't mind it if they gave him that scholarship for a year. Then it would be available for 2018 when we will need it.

My only apprehension here is if a transfer pops up midseason. For instance, if we had our 13th scholarship tied up with a walk-on this year, we wouldn't have had room for Graves.

[bauman]

12 minutes ago, kmbilliken said:

If Neufeld transfers I wouldn't mind it if they gave him that scholarship for a year. Then it would be available for 2018 when we will need it.

If Coach Ford had made that mistake this year we wouldn't have had a scholarship for Graves.  If we don't sign another "real recruit" going into next year I want Coach to hold on to it for another possible "Graves" situation.

Added

Sorry, I was typing my reply and when I hit submit I saw that Pistol had just made the same point

[Pistol]

1 minute ago, brianstl said:

I want to thank Hines for paying a lot if money to play over 30 minutes a night.  The season would have been a true train wreck without him.  He deserves multiple post season team awards.

I really don't want to put him down in any way.  I feel he earned a pass on that given his situation.  So, I will just say thank you and leave it at that.

I get this sentiment, but the shot selection is what tilts me to the side of "time to go away now". If he had played like walk-ons are supposed to and passed to his teammates instead of looking to take the shot, I'd view him differently. But being a reckless chucker every night and going .315 on the year, that's insane behavior from a walk-on, and it's crazy he was allowed to do it, too, quite frankly. I can't believe Ford was never like, "You realize you're lucky to be playing at all, right? Pass the damn ball." I guess it shows just how limited our options were.

[brianstl]

9 minutes ago, Pistol said:

I get this sentiment, but the shot selection is what tilts me to the side of "time to go away now". If he had played like walk-ons are supposed to and passed to his teammates instead of looking to take the shot, I'd view him differently. But being a reckless chucker every night and going .315 on the year, that's insane behavior from a walk-on, and it's crazy he was allowed to do it, too, quite frankly. I can't believe Ford was never like, "You realize you're lucky to be playing at all, right? Pass the damn ball." I guess it shows just how limited our options were.

I get that.  I put that mostly on Ford especially tonight.  

I try to put myself in Hines shoes.  If I was taking on a huge amount of debt or paying over $40,000 a year, I am going to shoot the ball if they are going to ask me to play more minutes than any of the scholarship players in conference games.

[moytoy12]

Agree with Brian, Coach didn't put the guys in a position to be more successful tonight once GW locked us down with the 1-3-1.  Our guys made poor decisions, but our offensive approach against the 1-3-1 didn't really provide them much opportunity.  

Re: Hines, he forced way too many shots down the stretch of the season.  I applaud the balls he had to take the shots, but when they weren't dropping, he needed to setup his teammates (e.g. should have passed to JJ tonight near the end of the game instead of taking the shot).  Overall, it's hard to get too fussy about Hines.  He did a helluva job for the spot he was in and I applaud his heart and effort.  If he earns a spot on the team next year as a walk-on, then i'm fine with that.  Heck, I probably wouldn't lose too much sleep if he was awarded a scholarship if we find ourselves with an extra in October/November. Either way, I don't see him getting much PT next year. 

 

[AnkielBreakers]

20 minutes ago, Pistol said:

My only apprehension here is if a transfer pops up midseason. For instance, if we had our 13th scholarship tied up with a walk-on this year, we wouldn't have had room for Graves.

I am fine with criticizing Hines the last four or five games.  The team was playing better with Moore and Roby on the court yesterday and today.  But I think there is a weird dislike towards Hines which makes no sense.  He had a bad close to the season.  So what.  From mid January till a week ago his AT ratio was 2.5.  That is pretty good. His shot is bad, but that is the devil we know.  He at least sets the low bar for what we can reasonably expect a point guard to do next year.  For example, if the above mentioned guys turn the ball over like Bishop did this year, averaging 3-4 per game, then give the ball to Hines till the message is clear.  He isn't the best option, but he isn't the worst possible outcome either.   

I don't think Hines deserves a scholarship. But if we do not have another recruit for the spot, then I think it makes sense to give him one. I also think there are some non-quantifiable leadership/team related reasons to give Hines a scholarship if it is available.

[DeSmetBilliken]

I respect what he's done this season. While other walk-ons haven't had the playing opportunities that Hines had, he's pretty clearly made the most impact of any walk-on I've seen at SLU.

With that pointed out, my preference would be that he wouldn't get a scholarship next season. We're hoping/expecting a big jump next season, and I don't think we reach our goals if Hines is logging regular minutes. A few good performances on a bad team that had no other options does not translate to solid contributor on a good team.

[thetorch]

Hines won't get a scholarship next year.

Hats off to him.  I too don't want to insult him.  I will simply state the fact that he won't play at all next year.  Any assertion that he will is erroneous.

[Bizziken]

Hines had a bad game. No doubt. But I will defend him a bit with regard to this game. Near the end we were dragging ass and looked completely lost on offense. There was no movement and nothing was developing. He took a 3 with a minute left that was probably a bit out of his range, but the shot clock was running down and he was fairly open. That was his only shot in the last 6 minutes of the game. And sure, he turned the ball over...but everybody had a few bonehead TOs against the 1-3-1. (I said this before, but I still don't get why Ford didn't immediately switch to have somebody pick off the top guy on the zone. He waited until the last 2 minutes to do that)

We had a 7 man rotation...Hines played the 3rd most minutes (100 ahead of the Agbeko, who had the 4th most minutes) and barely had the 3rd most shot attempts. I don't think he had more 'bad' shots than anyone else this season. 

[William Iken]

6 hours ago, Pistol said:

I get this sentiment, but the shot selection is what tilts me to the side of "time to go away now". If he had played like walk-ons are supposed to and passed to his teammates instead of looking to take the shot, I'd view him differently. But being a reckless chucker every night and going .315 on the year, that's insane behavior from a walk-on, and it's crazy he was allowed to do it, too, quite frankly. I can't believe Ford was never like, "You realize you're lucky to be playing at all, right? Pass the damn ball." I guess it shows just how limited our options were.

Walk on or scholarship doesn't matter when the uniform is on and game starts - a good decision is a good decision and a bad decision is a bad decision, no differences for 1st choice scholarship player, scholarship player only because another (or more than one) turned us down or walk on.

[CBFan]

Mr. Hines made the choice to attend SLU and I think we all agree that he could get a scholarship in a lower division.  We have choices in this country and he made the choice to have a chance to play in the A10.

I wanted to play the freshman on this lost season and Mr. Hines taking playing time from Zeke Moore never made sense to me.  We finally got to see Welmer start over Reggie and I wanted Zeke to start even if the offense got stagnant I wanted the freshman to figure it out or learn because of the loss.

I enjoyed some winning in the conference season when predicted that SLU would not win any and without Mr. Hines that would not have happened.  In the end Mr. Hines play got worse and his decision making got worse.

If Mr. Hines makes the choice to walk on that is his and I hope he never sees the floor it is not hate for Mr. Hines as some assume but it is that our team needs to be much better than that.

I agree with Pistol. stop the nonsense.

[Old guy]

All that has been said about Hines has truth in it. Poor shot selection, no scoring since LaSalle, etc... It is equally true that without him we would have not made the 12 wins we got this year, more likely we would have made the 4 wins we were expected to make. As far as the game last night, we still had the chance to win until Reggie and the other GW guy went over the side chasing the ball. If that call had favored us we may have been able to tie it and go into over time. However, as I have said could / should / would never got anyone anywhere. The season is over, we won a lot more games than we were expected. And thank you very much to Hines, he was a great help this season and played a lot of minutes each single game for most of the season, we owe him recognition for his effort. That said, I would have liked to see Zeke Moore getting a lot more playing time.

[3star_recruit]

After the 3 2018 kids are signed, i'm perfectly fine with Hines getting a scholarship next year.  Our roster will be loaded at that point.  Even if another Graves-quality transfer were available during the semester break, chances are he wouldn't make the 9 man rotation.  What's worse, a player on scholarship for a year who never leaves the bench or a player on scholarship for multiple years who never leaves the bench?

[cheeseman]

The problem with this question poised by this thread is that if you say no to the schollie for Hines then it is taken as you are not giving any love to him or you are unappreciative of what he did.  It is possible that you can be appreciative but not see the value in giving him a schollie for next year without dissing the kid.  Look he paid to play this year and he was lucky that there was the Bishop injury and he got to play a lot which in most situations simply does not happen for a walk on.  He should be thankful for the memories and the chance to tell his grandchildren that he was the starting pg for a D1 team - not many get to say that.  He is a dead end for us and giving him a schollie accomplishes nothing for the program - he knew when he walked on this year as a preferred that he would not be assured of a schollie.  If he enjoys playing then great for him but lets keep a proper perspective as it applies to the growth progress of the program. 

[Pistol]

The intent isn't to just "diss" Hines. Two weeks ago, there was seemingly endless conversation here about his role next season, how he fits into the rotation, how he should get a scholarship - that's what this is a response to, not Hines himself. The simple answer is that he really doesn't have a role next year - again, barring something catastrophic, like major injuries to multiple players or another incident of mass suspension/expulsion.

I want to look at Hines as a feel-good story - Unrecruited local kid walks on at D-I program and becomes a starter his junior season! - but then I watch him play, and I'm just like, "What in the **** are you doing?" I don't know what Ford's approach with him was. I'm surprised he wasn't reined in more with regard to his FGA numbers. We just needed a steady, competent distributor at PG, not a gunner, especially when he's surrounded by better shooters.

I'm all for coaches rewarding loyal, hard-working walk-ons with scholarships late in their careers. I saw it happen with Phil Hunt back when I was there, and that was great. We had one, and he deserved it. I don't think Ford is the type of coach who will do it, though - he always seems to be recruiting and looking for transfers.

[HoosierPal]

Before Hine's fate is decided by this tribunal, more information is needed.

Will Bishop transfer or return?

Will Roby transfer or return?

Will Moore transfer or return?

Will another point guard be brought in?

The situation changes with each new piece of information .

[RUBillsFan]

 

10 hours ago, Pistol said:

My only apprehension here is if a transfer pops up midseason. For instance, if we had our 13th scholarship tied up with a walk-on this year, we wouldn't have had room for Graves.

I'm in the camp that you invite him back as a walk-on and hope he comes back but rarely gets into game (he does add some decent PG depth in case of injury).  If he decides to come back and you're sitting on an open scholarship at the beginning of next season, I was in the camp that you offer him the scholarship as a show of gratitude for everything he's done.  I hadn't really considered this argument that if you have the open scholarship, you can potentially get a transfer like Graves at mid-season.  I think I'm still in the offer it to Hines & save it for 2018 rather than hope to add another mid-season transfer, but I don't feel strongly about it either way.

[WVBilliken]

Regarding Hines, fine young man.  I think his low turnover rate somewhat makes up for his poor shooting decisions and percentage.  But next year we should have several options better then him.  So thank you Mr. Hines and good luck in your future endeavors.  Hopefully he can graduate this year and transfer to a school where he can step in immediately as a key contributor and start on a masters degree.  For his future success will depend on his education, not his basketball skills.

On the other topic discussed........Everyone is assuming a scholarship opens up.  I hate "banking" scholarships for next year (2018).  Everyone always assumes a roster where nobody leaves. 

The last three guys on the bench are always a threat to leave so in all likelihood if MN leaves this year someone else will be leaving next year freeing up another 2018 scholarship anyway.

So I say if Coach Ford can get a top level recruit this Spring, JUCO or HS, use it because it is likely another will open up next year anyway for a third 2018 recruit.

[CBFan]

1 hour ago, HoosierPal said:

Before Hine's fate is decided by this tribunal, more information is needed.

Will Bishop transfer or return?

Will Roby transfer or return?

Will Moore transfer or return?

Will another point guard be brought in?

The situation changes with each new piece of information .

Mr. Hines fate will be decided by Mr. Hines and coach Ford.

If Mr. Hines has to play next season for the reasons you question then we can forget about a winning season in 2017-2018.

If any mentioned leave recruit a better option and play them it is time for the basketball program to move forward not move back to what options we had this season.

[slufanskip]

I find it hard to believe that this is a debate. Hines had a better year than anyone would have expected and we should all be thankful for that. However, his role going forward has to be normal walk-on mop up duty. If he's playing anymore than this, I can't imagine we all won't be disappointed with how the season is going

[Bobby Metzinger]

25 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

I find it hard to believe that this is a debate. Hines had a better year than anyone would have expected and we should all be thankful for that. However, his role going forward has to be normal walk-on mop up duty. If he's playing anymore than this, I can't imagine we all won't be disappointed with how the season is going

I think it's a debate based either on merit or statistics. I think there's a camp that looks at AH's overall body of work as scholarship-deserving. He's worked very hard and I'm sure not even AH himself probably anticipated the amount of PT he got this season. Then there's a statistical analysis camp, that pretty much highlighted (especially over the last half-dozen games) the exact reason why Hines is a walk-on/non-scholarship player. In Division I basketball and in life, stats don't lie, and any coach worth his weight in salt will look at the stats over a player's merit, especially when it comes down to a scholarship.