kmbilliken Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 I've noticed this also. Crappy teams with strong rebounders who are threats to score inside. I don't understand why we have so much trouble finding decent big men. It is a mystery. We always seem to play teams at our level who have several good big men, including forwards, better than all but one of ours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NextYearBill Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 It is a mystery. We always seem to play teams at our level who have several good big men, including forwards, better than all but one of ours. I always feel like we're undersized in every position. Except when Jordair played. Thats it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old guy Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Jordair was unique, small in physical size but a giant as a basketball player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 I've noticed this also. Crappy teams with strong rebounders who are threats to score inside. I don't understand why we have so much trouble finding decent big men. I have a theory about this. Mid-major schools by and large, recruit high school players regionally. Unless they have a national TV presence, they can't attract quality recruits from outside their region. You can usually find enough guards in your region to compete at the mid-major level. But quality big men are always in short supply. You find the most D-1 ready big men in the higher population centers -- on the coasts, Texas and Greater Chicago. So that leaves us with Chicago. There are so many high major schools located within a 200 mile radius of Chicago that the weaker schools in high major conferences have to sign mid-major big men. That leaves us with athletic tweeners who may or may not qualify (the Illinois-Chicago crowd) or low-major bigs who are no better than the guys we've been getting. Another phenomenon I've observed is that mid-major big men in the South tend to remain at home. I mean, real close, like within 100 miles of campus. That's why the UABs of the world, that aren't in large population centers, always have big men that we don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 One more thing -- the number of quality big men in the St. Louis metro area relative to its population is quite low. Smaller cities like Cincinnati and Memphis routinely produce significantly more bigs who can play at our level. But again, mid-major bigs in those areas have more attractive options closer to home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 3 star - you are right, we should just go with a 5 guard rotation - no use to even try to find or develop a big. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 3 star - you are right, we should just go with a 5 guard rotation - no use to even try to find or develop a big. Develop a big? Absolutely. Find a big who's ready to play out high school? Statistically, not something you can count on given our geography. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufan13 Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 3star - this is an interesting take and a very good point I think. This is another reason why I wish we had kept Harrimann and kept the Aussie pipeline. Although those guys aren't back to the basket guys, we clearly had 2 very useful players in Ellis and Loe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BACKHANDtheRICAN Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Yeah. Kentucky seems to find good big men. Lets just offer whoever they offer. I said pick a sh*tty school Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old guy Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Statistics are statistics and as such they produce accurate results only when applied to large numbers of people or events. There are ways to determine optimal sample size so that the statistical results are reasonably accurate, however it must be kept in mind that the larger the number of independent or semi independent variables you are dealing with, in terms of the people or events you choose to analyze statistically, the larger the number of individuals or events you must have in your sample. This said let's look at the development of a big, and I will be guessing a bit since basketball is not my area of expertise. The variables may be, to name a few, size, muscular development, fine motion precision both feet and hands, prior level of experience (played where and against whom, coached by whom?), ability to integrate in a new D1 team, and ability to understand and master the playing system of the new D1 coach. There may be any number of other important variables I have not mentioned, this list is not exhaustive. My point here is that any one of these variables may have numerous sub variables and the more of these variables acting more or less independently from one another that you have, the less accurate the statistical analysis will be for a given sample size. When you are dealing with the development of a single kid, the sample size is largely 1. How can you compare kids that are different in size, or age, or weight, or muscular development, and come up with meaningful statistics? Of course, a sample size of 1 does not provide meaningful numbers. So, and I am not bad mouthing anyone here, I tend to take sports statistics relating to the potential for development of a single player (big or PG) with a certain amount of doubt. I think watching kids play in high school over a number of games and against different opponents and seeing how they react to situations is more meaningful to picture future outcomes than poring over the kid's stats. Guys we are dealing with people, not with numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeniceMenace Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Statistics are statistics and as such they produce accurate results only when applied to large numbers of people or events. There are ways to determine optimal sample size so that the statistical results are reasonably accurate, however it must be kept in mind that the larger the number of independent or semi independent variables you are dealing with, in terms of the people or events you choose to analyze statistically, the larger the number of individuals or events you must have in your sample. This said let's look at the development of a big, and I will be guessing a bit since basketball is not my area of expertise. The variables may be, to name a few, size, muscular development, fine motion precision both feet and hands, prior level of experience (played where and against whom, coached by whom?), ability to integrate in a new D1 team, and ability to understand and master the playing system of the new D1 coach. There may be any number of other important variables I have not mentioned, this list is not exhaustive. My point here is that any one of these variables may have numerous sub variables and the more of these variables acting more or less independently from one another that you have, the less accurate the statistical analysis will be for a given sample size. When you are dealing with the development of a single kid, the sample size is largely 1. How can you compare kids that are different in size, or age, or weight, or muscular development, and come up with meaningful statistics? Of course, a sample size of 1 does not provide meaningful numbers. So, and I am not bad mouthing anyone here, I tend to take sports statistics relating to the potential for development of a single player (big or PG) with a certain amount of doubt. I think watching kids play in high school over a number of games and against different opponents and seeing how they react to situations is more meaningful to picture future outcomes than poring over the kid's stats. Guys we are dealing with people, not with numbers. Does this mean the chances of our 2015 recruits being legit big men are 50/50? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Here's your list of transfers currenlty available. Plenty of 2 star PG's to pick from. http://www.verbalcommits.com/transfers/2015 Who on that list do you want? We get a 2 star point guard who's transferring, it'll likely just be a new guy for everyone to moan about and wonder why he can't be coached up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box and Won Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 One more thing -- the number of quality big men in the St. Louis metro area relative to its population is quite low. Smaller cities like Cincinnati and Memphis routinely produce significantly more bigs who can play at our level. But again, mid-major bigs in those areas have more attractive options closer to home. SEMO has some good bigs from Memphis, including a senior from Roby's high school who looked fantastic in their televised game against UT-Martin the other night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeniceMenace Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 SEMO has some good bigs from Memphis, including a senior from Roby's high school who looked fantastic in their televised game against UT-Martin the other night. SEMO just lost to SIUE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierPal Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Who on that list do you want? We get a 2 star point guard who's transferring, it'll likely just be a new guy for everyone to moan about and wonder why he can't be coached up. Exactly. I don't want any of them. Bartley or Reynolds or Roby will be better than anything off this scrap pile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo027 Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 The 6-10+ instant impact player who can score, rebound, and defend the paint and is interested in SLU does not exist. There are only a handful of these players in the country, and even with our recent success, they aren't coming to SLU. The bigs that come to SLU will always take a year or two to develop, or never develop at all (Thompson, Manning). But having said this, I don't see why we can't get someone like Hassan Martin or Kendall Pollard. A decent player as a freshman, then develops into a very good player as a sophomore. Milik could be that guy next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 But having said this, I don't see why we can't get someone like Hassan Martin or Kendall Pollard. A decent player as a freshman, then develops into a very good player as a sophomore. Rhode Island getting Hassan Martin: Being 3 hours from the basketball mecca that is New York City has its perks. Kendall Pollard: Dayton offered a tough 6'5 Chicago kid with a huge wingspan. He grew another inch. Looks like its working out for them. We've got a similar player in our own backyard in the 2017 class. if Jordan Goodwin is 6'4 by the end of his junior year and wants to play for SLU, we should let him put in work the same way he does now -- inside and from mid-range. He's good at it. And if he grows another inch while in college, so much the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JettFlight5 Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 We have done well with non-prototype guys in the post. Brian Conklin wasn't exactly built like Charles Oakley, but he matured into one hell of a player. Dwayne Evans played a lot on the blocks despite not being a space eater. Rick Majerus got a lot out of his roster. Now it's Jim Crews' turn to do the same. Rick would have killed for guards with the length we have now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmbilliken Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Rhode Island getting Hassan Martin: Being 3 hours from the basketball mecca that is New York City has its perks. Kendall Pollard: Dayton offered a tough 6'5 Chicago kid with a huge wingspan. He grew another inch. Looks like its working out for them. We've got a similar player in our own backyard in the 2017 class. if Jordan Goodwin is 6'4 by the end of his junior year and wants to play for SLU, we should let him put in work the same way he does now -- inside and from mid-range. He's good at it. And if he grows another inch while in college, so much the better. Goodwin at 6'5" would be one tough player. At 6'3" hope he would be Donnie Dobbs, but he might be Anthony Jones. Not a bad gamble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Tyler Cook would fix the the power forward problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box and Won Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 SEMO just lost to SIUE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box and Won Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 SEMO just lost to SIUE So that means they don't have any good individual players? Hell, we probably would have lost to SIUE in their gym; we barely beat them at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basketbill Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 deveolpment of a big man takes time and Crews has chosen to convince a couple to go the prep route and come to slu. I know Jolly drive us crazy with fouls and shooting percentage, however, he does not shy away from contact, seals his man well to provides lanes for a guards to drive, shoots FTs very well. Gillman needs bulk and quickness bulk can come quickness will be difficult but experience can help. I am still high on his skills. His hands are exceptional for a big man. He keeps the ball up to complete plays. There was a play in the VCU game where Lewis fouled him the announcer went on about classic big man mistake bringing the ball down.....however he did not the pass was low. He caught it at his waist, turned as he was bringing the ball up, and was fouled.... I expect Neufeld to be further along than both Gillman and Jolly. Wellmer I have no clue but two years from now we may have one of the deepest group of bigs RA a senior Gilman Jolly (Juniors), Neufeld Welmer Sophmores, Yess a freshman..(hopefully) I believe I have had my share of koolaid .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clock_Tower Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 deveolpment of a big man takes time and Crews has chosen to convince a couple to go the prep route and come to slu. I know Jolly drive us crazy with fouls and shooting percentage, however, he does not shy away from contact, seals his man well to provides lanes for a guards to drive, shoots FTs very well. Gillman needs bulk and quickness bulk can come quickness will be difficult but experience can help. I am still high on his skills. His hands are exceptional for a big man. He keeps the ball up to complete plays. There was a play in the VCU game where Lewis fouled him the announcer went on about classic big man mistake bringing the ball down.....however he did not the pass was low. He caught it at his waist, turned as he was bringing the ball up, and was fouled.... I expect Neufeld to be further along than both Gillman and Jolly. Wellmer I have no clue but two years from now we may have one of the deepest group of bigs RA a senior Gilman Jolly (Juniors), Neufeld Welmer Sophmores, Yess a freshman..(hopefully) I believe I have had my share of koolaid .... I don't have a problem with getting bigs who need to be developed. The point is, though, that we need to develop them and they need to eventually produce. We are not going to have success if our big takes 3 years to develop and only becomes really productive his Senior year (my expectation for JM). Had this happened, then we would only be needing backup minute roles/times from Jolly and Gllmann. Instead, JM failed to show the development even after 4 years, GG missed the entire season, TL continued to show that he has no desire to play on the interior and RA has shown glimpses but remains a frustrating enigma -- all of this makes for a long season. This year's bigs: GG, JM, RA, TL, BJ, AG and MY. 7 out of 13 for guys who play only 40% of the minutes (2 of 5 starting positions) is too much. Next year's bigs: RA, TL, BJ, AG, MY, Welmer and Neufeld . Again 7 of 13 which, IMO, is too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierPal Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 I expect Neufeld to be further along than both Gillman and Jolly. Wellmer I have no clue but two years from now we may have one of the deepest group of bigs RA a senior Gilman Jolly (Juniors), Neufeld Welmer Sophmores, Yess a freshman..(hopefully) I saw Welmer once in HS and followed him thru the Columbus Republic newspapaer. He played with his back to the basket, yet did connect on a few three's. He had decent rebounding numbers (for high school) but had a little trouble from the FT line......(sounds like he'll fit in.) He was second on the team in scoring, behind Josh Speidel who was a junior at the time. I think he has the size and talent to be a 4 if someone can take the 5. He will need to add muscle, as just about every 4/5 we have recruited needs. He was listed at 210 lbs going into this season. It is hard to equate his defense in HS to what it needs to be in college. His HS, Columbus North, was in the top class of Indiana HS, so he played against decent competition. I have tried unsuccessfully to find out how he is doing at Bridgton Academy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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