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crymdg2

STL Today Prep All Decade Team

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I don't necessarily have an issue with Liddell as the Player of the Decade when you factor in all his individual AND team success,  but I do have issues with Roosevelt Jones over Goodwin on the first team.  Goodwin won a state title, Jones didn't.  Their games are similar,  but Goodwin tops him in all skill categories IMO.

https://www.stltoday.com/sports/high-school/all-metro/boys-basketball/all-decade-boys-basketball-first-team/collection_080049ec-7b6e-11ea-b32f-030b18524556.html#1

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53 minutes ago, crymdg2 said:

I don't necessarily have an issue with Liddell as the Player of the Decade when you factor in all his individual AND team success,  but I do have issues with Roosevelt Jones over Goodwin on the first team.  Goodwin won a state title, Jones didn't.  Their games are similar,  but Goodwin tops him in all skill categories IMO.

https://www.stltoday.com/sports/high-school/all-metro/boys-basketball/all-decade-boys-basketball-first-team/collection_080049ec-7b6e-11ea-b32f-030b18524556.html#1

If those good Butler teams had Goodwin instead of Jones, they're a title contender.

 

I think what is interesting are the exclusions - no BJ Young is so crazy to me.

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6 minutes ago, Littlebill said:

If those good Butler teams had Goodwin instead of Jones, they're a title contender.

 

I think what is interesting are the exclusions - no BJ Young is so crazy to me.

I went to McCluer North while BJ Young was there. My thought is he had one of the best high school basketball seasons in St. Louis ever, but he didn't play much more than his senior season I believe. 

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This has stirred up quite a lot of debated on Twitter mostly because Tatum and Beal started discussing it.  They have such a large reach that it brought a ton of people into the discussion.  Understandably many of these Tatum and/or Beal followers seem to be up in arms about Liddell over Tatum or Beal for Player of the Decade.  I understand if you're talking HS only, it makes things a lot closer.  Personally, I think Tatum deserves the nod, but I can't get really worked up about it.

What is funny is that a lot of people are arguing Liddell doesn't belong on the list simply because he played in IL which is totally dumb.  We're talking St. Louis Metro area here and clearly that means Liddell qualifies.

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I probably would have gone Cam Bieschield or Caleb Love on the first team instead of Jones.  Thought Goodwin on second team was fair.  Did seem like Kvidhal knocked guys who didn't play in the largest classification so that probably didn't help J Good...They played the best of the Southwestern Conference but he never faced a national schedule.  Been talked about on Twitter but of the 15 players...3 signed with SLU (Yuri, J Good, & Carteare), 3 ended up at Mizzou...none signed orginally (Mark Smith, Jordan Barnett, & Cam B)...and 2 with Illinois 

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6 minutes ago, RUBillsFan said:

This has stirred up quite a lot of debated on Twitter mostly because Tatum and Beal started discussing it.  They have such a large reach that it brought a ton of people into the discussion.  Understandably many of these Tatum and/or Beal followers seem to be up in arms about Liddell over Tatum or Beal for Player of the Decade.  I understand if you're talking HS only, it makes things a lot closer.  Personally, I think Tatum deserves the nod, but I can't get really worked up about it.

What is funny is that a lot of people are arguing Liddell doesn't belong on the list simply because he played in IL which is totally dumb.  We're talking St. Louis Metro area here and clearly that means Liddell qualifies.

If Belleville doesn't qualify then St. Chuck and Chesterfield definitely don't (not that they've had any players worth it)

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5 minutes ago, Littlebill said:

If Belleville doesn't qualify then St. Chuck and Chesterfield definitely don't (not that they've had any players worth it)

but, chesterfield is in st louis co?

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My initial thought was “How did Tatum or Beal not get Player if the Decade?” I still think one of them probably should have, but I remembered that the P-D typically favors players who win championships when they pick Players of the Year, so using that rubric, I see how they ended up with Liddell as Player Of the Decade.

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5 minutes ago, RUBillsFan said:

This has stirred up quite a lot of debated on Twitter mostly because Tatum and Beal started discussing it.  They have such a large reach that it brought a ton of people into the discussion.  Understandably many of these Tatum and/or Beal followers seem to be up in arms about Liddell over Tatum or Beal for Player of the Decade.  I understand if you're talking HS only, it makes things a lot closer.  Personally, I think Tatum deserves the nod, but I can't get really worked up about it.

What is funny is that a lot of people are arguing Liddell doesn't belong on the list simply because he played in IL which is totally dumb.  We're talking St. Louis Metro area here and clearly that means Liddell qualifies.

i am a huge Liddell fan.   I was championing him here at billikens.com after the first game i saw him play as a freshman at belleville west.   with apologies for all time billiken great joe wiley, imo, Liddell is the greatest player at west ever.    he accomplished some amazing things and was a load of fun to watch every single game.   

i am sure only using the high school books for consideration liddell deserves the nod.   that said, after seeing all the players in person in their high school days, not sure if by just sheer watching them play, if tatum is the second best.    tatum was an amazing high school player and they would have been a lot of fun to watch play against each other their respective senior seasons.    

the final judge over which one is the overall better player wont be decided for another decade and all three have their nba careers under their belts.   we know that beal and tatum are going to have spectacular nba resumes.   we have no idea how good liddell will be at the next level yet.   he is going to be a slight tweener for an nba power forward and i dont see him being able to play the 3 in the nba like tatum does with ease.   and no way he is the shooter that beal is.   so liddell definitely has an uphill battle to win the best of the three title for all time.   it will be fun to watch develop.    

cant help but wonder if any of the three had become billikens if ford was where he is now by the time they each got to high school.   nice to dream of what could have been.  

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13 minutes ago, Billiken4life5 said:

I probably would have gone Cam Bieschield or Caleb Love on the first team instead of Jones.  Thought Goodwin on second team was fair.  Did seem like Kvidhal knocked guys who didn't play in the largest classification so that probably didn't help J Good...They played the best of the Southwestern Conference but he never faced a national schedule.  Been talked about on Twitter but of the 15 players...3 signed with SLU (Yuri, J Good, & Carteare), 3 ended up at Mizzou...none signed orginally (Mark Smith, Jordan Barnett, & Cam B)...and 2 with Illinois 

althoff indeed did some national traveling when goodwin was in high school.   

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6 minutes ago, wgstl said:

but, chesterfield is in st louis co?

My point was Belleville is so close.

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1 hour ago, crymdg2 said:

I don't necessarily have an issue with Liddell as the Player of the Decade when you factor in all his individual AND team success,  but I do have issues with Roosevelt Jones over Goodwin on the first team.  Goodwin won a state title, Jones didn't.  Their games are similar,  but Goodwin tops him in all skill categories IMO.

https://www.stltoday.com/sports/high-school/all-metro/boys-basketball/all-decade-boys-basketball-first-team/collection_080049ec-7b6e-11ea-b32f-030b18524556.html#1

I think Goodwin only playing 14 games his senior year kept him off the first team

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3 minutes ago, DeSmetBilliken said:

My initial thought was “How did Tatum or Beal not get Player if the Decade?” I still think one of them probably should have, but I remembered that the P-D typically favors players who win championships when they pick Players of the Year, so using that rubric, I see how they ended up with Liddell as Player Of the Decade.

remember, liddell was winning 2 state titles in the state that contains all the chicago public league players.   kansas city and st louis combined doesnt have that depth of players.  

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Just now, slusam said:

I think Goodwin only playing 14 games his senior year kept him off the first team

and still passed kevin lisch for all time scorer in althoff history leaving early for the shoulder surgery.    if you say lisch in high school you would know that is an incredible happening.  

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The Post-Dispatch finally did something right.

They got people to have intelligent talk about basketball in May

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Interesting to read all your comments about the local HS all stars. It does make one wonder who Ford could have got to stay home if he’d been our coach. Obviously, we know who he didn’t land in his time frame, eg Liddell, Ramey, Love. But getting 2 of 10 ain’t bad. 
It’s also interesting to see that 8 of the 10 all chose big name P5 schools, which goes to my contention that the area’s very best have their sights set on the biggies. 
I do have a question on Ramey. Wasn’t he expected to be just about a lock for an NBA future? Based on his play at Texas that doesn’t seem to be the case. Makes you wonder if SLU might have been a better option. 

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8 minutes ago, slu72 said:

Interesting to read all your comments about the local HS all stars. It does make one wonder who Ford could have got to stay home if he’d been our coach. Obviously, we know who he didn’t land in his time frame, eg Liddell, Ramey, Love. But getting 2 of 10 ain’t bad. 
It’s also interesting to see that 8 of the 10 all chose big name P5 schools, which goes to my contention that the area’s very best have their sights set on the biggies. 
I do have a question on Ramey. Wasn’t he expected to be just about a lock for an NBA future? Based on his play at Texas that doesn’t seem to be the case. Makes you wonder if SLU might have been a better option. 

By his dad, maybe.  Ramey was a top 50 player.  Most top 50 players play 4 years.  

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18 minutes ago, slu72 said:

Interesting to read all your comments about the local HS all stars. It does make one wonder who Ford could have got to stay home if he’d been our coach. Obviously, we know who he didn’t land in his time frame, eg Liddell, Ramey, Love. But getting 2 of 10 ain’t bad. 
It’s also interesting to see that 8 of the 10 all chose big name P5 schools, which goes to my contention that the area’s very best have their sights set on the biggies. 
I do have a question on Ramey. Wasn’t he expected to be just about a lock for an NBA future? Based on his play at Texas that doesn’t seem to be the case. Makes you wonder if SLU might have been a better option. 

He did just average 10/4/3 for a team that will be a top 20-30 team this season

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7 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

By his dad, maybe.  Ramey was a top 50 player.  Most top 50 players play 4 years.  

College-Reference https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/ has RSCI (recruiting services composite rankings) for players in the top 100.  The rankings only go back to 1998, so just miss having Larry Hughes included.  I went through and tried to pull all of the St. Louis area players, but I may have missed some

Jayson Tatum = #3 in 2016

Darius Miles = #3 in 2000

Bradley Beal = #4 in 2011

David Lee = #10 in 2001

BJ Young = #20 in 2011

Jimmy McKinney = #35 in 2002

Jeremiah Tilmon = #40 in 2017

Ben McLemore = #41 in 2011

Courtney Ramey = #41 in 2018

EJ Liddell = #41 in 2019

Cam Biedscheid = #46 in 2012

Jordan Goodwin = #52 in 2017

Kalen Grimes = #63 in 2004

Tyler Cook = #63 in 2016

Carteare Gordon = #65 in 2018

Scott Suggs = #69 in 2008

Malcolm Hill = #70 in 2013

Jordan Barnett = #84 in 2014

Mark Smith = #90 in 2017

Obviously any rankings aren't 100% accurate and the strength of each class may vary such that #50 in one class is better than #50 in another.  However, the main thrust is that there is a reason Tatum, Miles & Beal were one (or none) and done players and the other guys mostly weren't.

 

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I have a tough time going Liddell over Tatum.

Tatum had better numbers, more national recognition, and was ranked higher in recruiting.
Liddell has more state titles.

The ranking seemed to give it to Liddell for the extra state title. That would be like saying Robert Horry is better than Charles Barkley.

 

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These lists are never going to satisfy everyone and aren't worth spending much time arguing, but mad props to the writer from the PD who was successfully able to agitate two guys who will make over $200 million playing a sport. Terrific stuff Mr. Kvidahl. Hopefully they can use being slighted by this list as fuel whenever the NBA returns to action, prove the haters wrong Chaminade boys! 

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39 minutes ago, dlarry said:

I have a tough time going Liddell over Tatum.

Tatum had better numbers, more national recognition, and was ranked higher in recruiting.
Liddell has more state titles.

The ranking seemed to give it to Liddell for the extra state title. That would be like saying Robert Horry is better than Charles Barkley.

 

Tatum also won gold medals for the USA while in HS.  I'm not certain, but I do not think Liddell has that on his HS resume.

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1 hour ago, RUBillsFan said:

College-Reference https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/ has RSCI (recruiting services composite rankings) for players in the top 100.  The rankings only go back to 1998, so just miss having Larry Hughes included.  I went through and tried to pull all of the St. Louis area players, but I may have missed some

Jayson Tatum = #3 in 2016

Darius Miles = #3 in 2000

Bradley Beal = #4 in 2011

David Lee = #10 in 2001

BJ Young = #20 in 2011

Jimmy McKinney = #35 in 2002

Jeremiah Tilmon = #40 in 2017

Ben McLemore = #41 in 2011

Courtney Ramey = #41 in 2018

EJ Liddell = #41 in 2019

Cam Biedscheid = #46 in 2012

Jordan Goodwin = #52 in 2017

Kalen Grimes = #63 in 2004

Tyler Cook = #63 in 2016

Carteare Gordon = #65 in 2018

Scott Suggs = #69 in 2008

Malcolm Hill = #70 in 2013

Jordan Barnett = #84 in 2014

Mark Smith = #90 in 2017

Obviously any rankings aren't 100% accurate and the strength of each class may vary such that #50 in one class is better than #50 in another.  However, the main thrust is that there is a reason Tatum, Miles & Beal were one (or none) and done players and the other guys mostly weren't.

 

these rankings are worthless.   just look where the worthless tilmon is ranked.   i dont know if i ever saw tilmon be the best player on the floor.   one of the most overrated high school players of all time.  

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4 hours ago, RUBillsFan said:

This has stirred up quite a lot of debated on Twitter mostly because Tatum and Beal started discussing it.  They have such a large reach that it brought a ton of people into the discussion.  Understandably many of these Tatum and/or Beal followers seem to be up in arms about Liddell over Tatum or Beal for Player of the Decade.  I understand if you're talking HS only, it makes things a lot closer.  Personally, I think Tatum deserves the nod, but I can't get really worked up about it.

What is funny is that a lot of people are arguing Liddell doesn't belong on the list simply because he played in IL which is totally dumb.  We're talking St. Louis Metro area here and clearly that means Liddell qualifies.

I have not read the Twitter thread but are those saying IL doesn't belong because they are not from around here.  People have a real thing about not being able to understand how we define the metropolitan area.  I get  it we have a silly set up but it does show sometimes how little knowledge some have of this area.

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