Fall 2017 allegations against unnamed players (aka Situation 2)

[willie]

6 minutes ago, HenryB said:

If that were the case the players and lawyers would have been told that.  No one knows what is going on because the administration continues to put its head in the sand and stone wall. 

I agree I have no idea whats going on. I'm just making a prediction as to the possible outcome. By saying they couldn't play in the first semester they can point to that punishment as a penalty for perceived wrongdoing . I don't believe this issue has even had a university hearing.Just speculating on the outcome. 

[crymdg2]

What constitutes a 1st semester suspension?  They can come back the first game after finals are over? Or they come back the first game after the spring semester begins? 

[slufan13]

5 minutes ago, crymdg2 said:

What constitutes a 1st semester suspension?  They can come back the first game after finals are over? Or they come back the first game after the spring semester begins? 

Most schools let you back the first game after finals are over. Not sure what SLU would do. I could see Henriquez and Bishop come back the first game after exams and Graves comes back after the spring semester starts. 

[615Billiken]

22 minutes ago, keyser soze said:

I think that Stu and Frank C. need to be made aware that SLU employees/faculty are snooping on billikens.com and lecturing we the uneducated fans on the importance of a most thorough and lengthy investigation even if it's borderline incompetent...

For the faculty, in the real world, this would be a major HR incident, people would then be fired real fast.... apparently in the academic bubble students can violate the honor code/handbook, fall into a grey purgatory of a title XI investigation and sit in limbo for 3+ months and have to put their lives on hold.  If they broke rules, expel or suspend and then move on, or most importantly let the students move on.... 

What is happening now?  Our AD is getting into pi$$ing contests with donors/fans.  Faculty lecturing fans/donors/alumni...  wow!!!

JUST NO.

No one is lecturing you about anything. This is a place where people come to talk about Billiken basketball and everything around it. Because SLU isn't a huge school (numbers wise), and the basketball brand is relatively small, we can assume that the majority of people who post here are directly affiliated to SLU in some form or fashion.

Because this is a relatively small and close knit community, we often know the real life identities of posters. This is both a positive and a potential negative. I think it is cool that people on here know each other, go to games together, and report their experiences here. I also see the potential for things going south if someone affiliated with the university publicly says something controversial. 

For example, I have personally disclosed that I am a graduate student, and I am sure that if people really wanted to, they could put bits and pieces of what I have said and determine who I am. That is why I am careful of what I post, not that I have anything egregious to say anyway. I think that as long as people are non-threatening,  or not breaking the law in any way, they deserve that we give them the space to be a billiken fan on this forum. Sometimes fandom is frustrating. Sometimes we say things we might regret. Sometimes we come off as condescending (And sometimes we actually are condescending). But, I don't think we have to make it into a a forum where people are outed for what they say and that we contact the media. 

Disagree with what someone says. Go for it. I don't care. It is what makes online forums fun. But let's not make this a place where we want to involve people personally/professionally in a negative way. I don't want to be a part of that type of forum. I think its cool that people affiliated with the university sometimes post on here. I think its cool that up to this point that hasn't become a problem and that everyone has been civil and respectful. Let's work to keep it that way. The AD incident is different because it was a person engaging with fans in a professional capacity. We don't have to talk about making the media aware of SLU employees/faculty opining on a forum. That is ugly and low. Do we really want that?

 

Just my 2 cents.

[NextYearBill]

SERIOUS QUESTION.... Do the players lose this year of eligibility? At this point I would be ok with the "red shirt" 

[billiken_roy]

Just now, NextYearBill said:

SERIOUS QUESTION.... Do the players lose this year of eligibility? At this point I would be ok with the "red shirt" 

if they hadnt already used redshirts you have a legit question.  but graves and henriquez have.   they have no chance of getting the time back.  

[billiken_roy]

7 minutes ago, 615Billiken said:

JUST NO.

No one is lecturing you about anything. This is a place where people come to talk about Billiken basketball and everything around it. Because SLU isn't a huge school (numbers wise), and the basketball brand is relatively small, we can assume that the majority of people who post here are directly affiliated to SLU in some form or fashion.

Because this is a relatively small and close knit community, we often know the real life identities of posters. This is both a positive and a potential negative. I think it is cool that people on here know each other, go to games together, and report their experiences here. I also see the potential for things going south if someone affiliated with the university publicly says something controversial. 

For example, I have personally disclosed that I am a graduate student, and I am sure that if people really wanted to, they could put bits and pieces of what I have said and determine who I am. That is why I am careful of what I post, not that I have anything egregious to say anyway. I think that as long as people are non-threatening,  or not breaking the law in any way, they deserve that we give them the space to be a billiken fan on this forum. Sometimes fandom is frustrating. Sometimes we say things we might regret. Sometimes we come off as condescending (And sometimes we actually are condescending). But, I don't think we have to make it into a a forum where people are outed for what they say and that we contact the media. 

Disagree with what someone says. Go for it. I don't care. It is what makes online forums fun. But let's not make this a place where we want to involve people personally/professionally in a negative way. I don't want to be a part of that type of forum. I think its cool that people affiliated with the university sometimes post on here. I think its cool that up to this point that hasn't become a problem and that everyone has been civil and respectful. Let's work to keep it that way. The AD incident is different because it was a person engaging with fans in a professional capacity. We don't have to talk about making the media aware of SLU employees/faculty opining on a forum. That is ugly and low. Do we really want that?

 

Just my 2 cents.

you dont call those manifesto posts by wendelprof and doctorb lecturing? 

imo they both were the among the most if not the most elitest liberal academia lectures ever seen on billikens.com.  im hoping we never hear from either ever again after those written beatdowns.  i have spent some time now thinking i wish i was as smart as either one of them, but that only further diminishes my self worth.  

[NextYearBill]

7 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

if they hadnt already used redshirts you have a legit question.  but graves and henriquez have.   they have no chance of getting the time back.  

So Graves pretty much ruined his entire career. Two years gone for transferring and partying 

[keyser soze]

11 minutes ago, 615Billiken said:

JUST NO.

No one is lecturing you about anything. This is a place where people come to talk about Billiken basketball and everything around it. Because SLU isn't a huge school (numbers wise), and the basketball brand is relatively small, we can assume that the majority of people who post here are directly affiliated to SLU in some form or fashion.

Because this is a relatively small and close knit community, we often know the real life identities of posters. This is both a positive and a potential negative. I think it is cool that people on here know each other, go to games together, and report their experiences here. I also see the potential for things going south if someone affiliated with the university publicly says something controversial. 

For example, I have personally disclosed that I am a graduate student, and I am sure that if people really wanted to, they could put bits and pieces of what I have said and determine who I am. That is why I am careful of what I post, not that I have anything egregious to say anyway. I think that as long as people are non-threatening,  or not breaking the law in any way, they deserve that we give them the space to be a billiken fan on this forum. Sometimes fandom is frustrating. Sometimes we say things we might regret. Sometimes we come off as condescending (And sometimes we actually are condescending). But, I don't think we have to make it into a a forum where people are outed for what they say and that we contact the media. 

Disagree with what someone says. Go for it. I don't care. It is what makes online forums fun. But let's not make this a place where we want to involve people personally/professionally in a negative way. I don't want to be a part of that type of forum. I think its cool that people affiliated with the university sometimes post on here. I think its cool that up to this point that hasn't become a problem and that everyone has been civil and respectful. Let's work to keep it that way. The AD incident is different because it was a person engaging with fans in a professional capacity. We don't have to talk about making the media aware of SLU employees/faculty opining on a forum. That is ugly and low. Do we really want that?

 

Just my 2 cents.

Then active faculty should not be lecturing fans/donors/supporters on a fan website.... this place is essentially the Billiken Corner Pub where we come to talk our favorite team. It's meant for fun, or to suffer together.  And yes it's another indictment on university stupidity for faculty to lecture fans/donors/supporters - you know the people who write checks to fund locker rooms, buy tickets to road games, buy season tickets, shirts, shorts, concessions...

 

[slufan13]

I just find it funny that we don't have members of the athletic department coming on here trying to tell their side of the story. The fact that we have people affiliated with the University feeling the need to come on here and write a book about how us fans don't understand the seriousness or sophistication of this topic tells me that the school is hearing the noise and that they don't want to be seen in a negative light. Personally, I find it unprofessional but I'm not wise enough to know what's right and wrong in the world of our esteemed academia. 

[DeSmetBilliken]

While the fall semester “suspension” could allow the players the chance to play soon, and prevent them from having to withdraw from classes (remember, Mitchell and Reed had to leave school and drop their classes), it isn’t truly right if it’s being done because SLU couldn’t legitimately hold them accountable. Again, my read here has been that if SLU knew they had the evidence to hold them accountable via the university conduct board, these players would be gone from the university by now. The longer  this drags on, the more convinced I become the school has squat. 

[JohnnyJumpUp]

13 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

if they hadnt already used redshirts you have a legit question.  but graves and henriquez have.   they have no chance of getting the time back.  

I don't believe Graves has used a red shirt.

[billikenfan05]

7 minutes ago, slufan13 said:

I just find it funny that we don't have members of the athletic department coming on here trying to tell their side of the story. The fact that we have people affiliated with the University feeling the need to come on here and write a book about how us fans don't understand the seriousness or sophistication of this topic tells me that the school is hearing the noise and that they don't want to be seen in a negative light. Personally, I find it unprofessional but I'm not wise enough to know what's right and wrong in the world of our esteemed academia. 

We don’t? 

[JMM28]

Graves hasn't used a redshirt and would be ineligible until the end of this semester anyways per the NCAA. He could use a redshirt if he wanted to and be eligible with 3 years left starting in the 2018-2019 season. 

Henriquez has already used a redshirt so he is losing eligibility every game he doesn't get to participate in. 

Bishop has used his redshirt year last year. There is a 0% chance that the NCAA would grant him a 6th year based on this. The only 6 year waivers are usually for a player who has two separate season ending injuries. 

 

[Wendelprof]

5 hours ago, keyser soze said:

So let me get this straight, since the university has completely bungled this situation, they are now having paid employees using a fan forum to give lectures on the importance of a thorough investigation?  

And yes probably 75% of your students are engaging in stupid behavior using social media, alcohol and drugs.

wow this is worse than we thought.....

Ah keyser, strike two.  No where did I say that I work for SLU.  In fact I do not, but I did graduate from the university (something I'm rather convinced you did not).  I am a fan of the basketball program and of the university.  I'm beginning to think you are a fan of neither.  You are just using this incident to attack the university.  I thought it might be helpful to share some information and insights about universities that I assume most people don't fully appreciate, but your baseless attacks give me better understanding of why people who actually know something about what they are talking about stay away from such boards.

[keyser soze]

1 minute ago, Wendelprof said:

Ah keyser, strike two.  No where did I say that I work for SLU.  In fact I do not, but I did graduate from the university (something I'm rather convinced you did not).  I am a fan of the basketball program and of the university.  I'm beginning to think you are a fan of neither.  You are just using this incident to attack the university.  I thought it might be helpful to share some information and insights about universities that I assume most people don't fully appreciate, but your baseless attacks give me better understanding of why people who actually know something about what they are talking about stay away from such boards.

Troll on....

you know nothing internet tough guy..

you have no idea how many road trips I’ve taken for the Billikens, how many years and arenas in St. Louis I’ve sat in, how many memories I have experienced in support of SLU basketball... 

you know nothing and ignorance is truly bliss...

[ACE]

26 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

you dont call those manifesto posts by wendelprof and doctorb lecturing? 

imo they both were the among the most if not the most elitest liberal academia lectures ever seen on billikens.com.  im hoping we never hear from either ever again after those written beatdowns.  i have spent some time now thinking i wish i was as smart as either one of them, but that only further diminishes my self worth.  

Didn't you used to be a no political talk crusader on this board?

[Quality Is Job 1]

36 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

if they hadnt already used redshirts you have a legit question.  but graves and henriquez have.   they have no chance of getting the time back.  

 

28 minutes ago, NextYearBill said:

So Graves pretty much ruined his entire career. Two years gone for transferring and partying 

 

22 minutes ago, JohnnyJumpUp said:

I don't believe Graves has used a red shirt.

JJU is correct:

Ty Graves has not yet had a redshirt year.

Roy, I've responded to you on this already.  Please, repeat after me:

Quote

Ty Graves has not yet had a redshirt year.

 

[615Billiken]

19 minutes ago, keyser soze said:

Troll on....

you know nothing internet tough guy..

you have no idea how many road trips I’ve taken for the Billikens, how many years and arenas in St. Louis I’ve sat in, how many memories I have experienced in support of SLU basketball... 

you know nothing and ignorance is truly bliss...

Yeah @Wendelprof, leave Keyser alone!

He graduated as valedictorian of SLUH before graduating laude from SLU. He had perfect attendance to all home game while he was a student, and was president of the SLUnatics during his junior and senior year. He has clocked over 100,000 miles on his Chevy Tahoe traveling to Billiken games across the country, and that’s not including his frequent flier miles on his Billiken card.

He has two sons, both named after Biondi. His sons attend SLUH and will be at SLU in the coming years. 

When this guy poops, Billiken bobble heads come out. His made his wife change her name to Billie, something that she gladly did. He owns a company called Billiken Fanworks, LLC. 

He breathes, sweats, and bleeds Billikens. 

You know nothing Wendelprof.

 

[Wendelprof]

11 hours ago, Clock_Tower said:

Wendelprof.

Appreciate your comments.  As I am sure you can appreciate, most of us who are frustrated at the process/status quo are NOT win at all cost, pro-athlete fans.  Obviously, you have some insight and/or familiar with this Title IX process and procedure.  If you don't mind, a few questions:

1.  Was there a Title IX investigation with regard to Situation 1 (Kwamaine Mitchell, Willie Reed, etc.?  If I recall, talk was less about Title IX and more about SLU Student Code of Conduct/Housing regulations and tribunal.

2.   Are Title IX complaints only available to student athletes?  such as women's soccer, basketball, softball players? as opposed to SLU  female student who are not athletes?

3.   How long has SLU/other colleges been conducting/allow Title IX investigations?  As mentioned, I don't recall the same for Situation 1.  Also, I understand the federal regulations were greatly increased in both size and scope under President Obama.  and are now being cut back under President Trump. 

The vibes I am receiving is that our Men's baketball players, due to their high profile nature, appear to be subject to far greater scrutiny than SLU nont -student athletes.

Clock_Tower,

As I mentioned, I'm not an expert on Title IX, and I'm not sure how much you want to read, but here's an academic perspective of Title IX:

https://www.aaup.org/file/TitleIXreport.pdf

I didn't read it all, but it appears to do a pretty good job of describing how Title IX has changed over the years, including a discussion of how it has become one of the principal tools used now to fight sexual misconduct.

As for your questions, (1) because I don't work at SLU I'm not familiar with their procedures and handbooks, nor am I familiar with the details of Situation 1 (other than what I read on this board inasmuch as I live out of town).  But my guess - only a guess - is that the tribunal hearing that occurred was their Title IX process.  And the Student Code of Conduct/Housing regulations are often a part of such proceedings because they set forth the standards to which the university has stated it holds its students.  If a student has violated those standards, another student can invoke the standards in seeking disciplinary action against the student.

As for question 2, any student can file a Title IX complaint against any other student within the university.  The reason one might think that Title IX complaints only involve athletes is that such complaints are the only ones that the media bothers to discuss or that "outsiders" hear about.  But Title IX complaints can involve any student, athlete or non, male or female.

As for question (3), the report I linked above gives a history of Title IX, and it acknowledges that it has evolved over time and is still evolving (as is how universities are responding to it).  Although it is based in statute, as the courts read and construe it, and grant implied rights and conditions, the scope and understanding of Title IX is constantly evolving.

You mentioned that "The vibes I am receiving is that our Men's baketball players, due to their high profile nature, appear to be subject to far greater scrutiny than SLU nont -student athletes."  Your instincts are good, but let me offer an alternative explanation for why that might be the case.  Title IX is primarily about prohibiting discrimination based on sex.  The concern with respect to athletes is that universities might have an incentive to "discount" claims of sexual misconduct because punishing the athlete could have financial consequences for the institution.  One need not look too far to find evidence to support such an argument.  I don't know if you are familiar with the situation down at Baylor, but one of the accusations is/was that the university failed to properly handle claims of sexual misconduct involving some of the football players because they were football players, and because they were football players, male athletes were being favored over female students who did not bring money and attention to the school.  The whole purpose of Title IX is to make sure that all students are treated equally, whether male or female, whether athlete or non-athlete.  The risk is that universities will succumb to pressures from donors and fans and treat their athletes differently than other students for the greater good of the university.  That is not fair to the student who has brought the complaint.  All students must be treated equally, and that is what is at the heart of the Title IX process.  Let the process play itself out.  There is a lot at stake (no less than Ken Starr lost his job as President of Baylor because the university's mishandling of the Title IX complaints occurred on his watch).  Let the process play itself out.  If there had been criminal or civil charges, we would still be months away from a trial.  In the world of dispute resolutions, investigating, hearing, deciding, and leaving time for appeals takes time.  60 days is not much time at all in the world of disputes.

[Wendelprof]

6 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

Thanks for fleshing out the issue.  But at the end of the day, the University either has to expel the students or let them play.  There is no middle ground here.  The faculty decision makers are just dragging their feet at this point.  And from your explanation, they're simply doing it because they can.  

Increasingly parties who are not happy with the way the Title IX complaint has been resolved then turn to the civil courts to sue the university.  The university runs the risk of being sued by either party (or both).  Damned if you do; damned if you don't.  But whenever the risk of civil litigation enters the picture, everything moves more slowly.  Everyone wants to cover themselves for the likely litigation.  And universities are notorious for moving slowly even when there is no risk of litigation.  Throw in the risk of litigation and things grind to a halt.  Let the process play itself out.

[Wendelprof]

6 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

Thanks for fleshing out the issue.  But at the end of the day, the University either has to expel the students or let them play.  There is no middle ground here.  The faculty decision makers are just dragging their feet at this point.  And from your explanation, they're simply doing it because they can.  

I disagree, there is plenty of room between expelling the students or letting them play.  My guess is that is one of the big hold-ups.  I'd be surprised if the students are not disciplined, but I have to think at least some members of the hearing tribunal will think that expelling them is too harsh.  So what's the punishment the tribunal can agree on?  Very difficult decision for even a secular university; even tougher for a Catholic institution.

[Pistol]

Why do people think Pestello has any say over what happens here?

Neither SLU's internal policies nor Title IX itself say that the University President should be involved with these investigations. As SLU President, he can't interfere with the process. If SLU fails to follow procedures or if the President gets involved in any way, it opens the school up to a major lawsuit or lawsuits.

I'm struggling with this question because I see pages and pages of criticism of Pestello, even calling for his firing, but he can't even do anything at this point. Hell, I said I was frustrated that he hasn't given a statement saying "Here's where we are in the process" but maybe he's not even allowed to do that.

[Wendelprof]

4 hours ago, cheeseman said:

Roy, the only thing I would disagree with here is that of course rules were broken.  The problem is these rules are broken all the time - in fact I would be comfortable saying every weekend and more at SLU and virtually every other campus in the country this happens.  I have raised this point before, if SLU has not dealt with each and every offender in the past in the same way they find themselves in a bit of a pickle.  I feel safe in saying that sometime at SLU someone representing the school turned their backs on or was willfully ignorant of these rule breakers.  This is the biggest dilemma the school faces - how to avoid appearing to be selective in these matters.  I know some people do not want to admit that SLU is like all schools - kids do nasty things all the time and they do not all get expelled.  The school is going to get blasted no matter what they decide to do so trying to wait this out makes no sense - it only makes more people pissed off over the appearance of  foot dragging.  This is one of those times where you just have to hold your nose and take your medicine.  The only constant here is the DA - if the DA is not going to charge the students then SLU needs to just drop the matter for the reasons I gave above or risk being sued and my guess losing.  If by some chance they win then they will still be dirtied by the entire affair - no pun intended.

Cheeseman,

Title IX, in part, is in response to your statement that "I feel safe in saying that sometime at SLU someone representing the school turned their backs on or was willfully ignorant of these rule breakers."  Maybe at some universities in the old days that happened, but not now.  Not since Title IX has taken its current form.  University administrators have been fired for less (perceived failure to properly handle such complaints), and universities are being sued right and left by students who believe that they were not treated properly in such proceedings.  Title IX is a land-mine these days, with some schools being accused of being too soft when presented with such complaints, and some schools being accused of being too hard when presented with such complaints.  But one thing you cannot do any more is assume that whatever you do in-house (inside the university) will be the end of the matter.  More and more it is just the start of the matter, with the dispute then moving to the civil courtrooms with the university now being sued. 

[CBFan]

7 minutes ago, Pistol said:

Why do people think Pestello has any say over what happens here?

Neither SLU's internal policies nor Title IX itself say that the University President should be involved with these investigations. As SLU President, he can't interfere with the process. If SLU fails to follow procedures or if the President gets involved in any way, it opens the school up to a major lawsuit or lawsuits.

I'm struggling with this question because I see pages and pages of criticism of Pestello, even calling for his firing, but he can't even do anything at this point. Hell, I said I was frustrated that he hasn't given a statement saying "Here's where we are in the process" but maybe he's not even allowed to do that.

Good point this is the NCAA.

When this all ends we will all know how the University handled situation 2.