Fall 2017 allegations against unnamed players (aka Situation 2)

[Billboy1]

Roy-agree 100%.  Need someone with purse strings to make the administration act-one way or another.  This has gone on far too long. 

[TheA_Bomb]

22 minutes ago, Wendelprof said:

A number of universities recently were sent letters from the federal government that basically put them on notice that the federal government did not think they were in compliance with Title IX, and if they didn't change their Title IX procedures the government might take the school's punishment to the next level.  Those letters have put the fear of the federal government in all universities.  Whether the school received a letter or not, by making an example of those schools the federal government sent a message to all universities it is getting serious.  Moreover, some private groups have used the fact that a school was sent a Title IX compliance letter to bash the school on social media, thereby making it harder for that school to recruit students.  The notion that the federal government is enforcing Title IX is not silly to those in the business of running universities.

When were these "letters" sent?  I believe that was the last administration, if at all.  This current administration rescinded the "dear colleague" letter that caused much of the stir.  Even under that policy,  Baylor did everything it could to cover up real documented, convicted rapists for years and there's been no Federal repercussions. Their self imposed punishments were way too little too late.

So I say again universities are doing this to themselves.  The big bad federal government is no longer causing this and I contend that previous policies had no real enforcement. Silliness.

SLU needs to get it together.

[SLU_Lax]

Now the question becomes if SLU will pause the Title IX process until the next semester.  There is no clear indication that the plan on continuing this process while school is not in session.  It may sound ridiculous, but the speed of everything thus far has been ridiculous.

[hoppybeer]

53 minutes ago, Wendelprof said:

I assume a decision has been made by now, but due process, a well-recognized right in our judicial process, gives both parties a right to appeal.  I assume we are in the appeal period now (or will be shortly).

Dispute resolution moves slowly when the risk of litigation is present (which it definitely is here).  If there is subsequent legal action, moving quickly with respect to the underlying decision will look much worse than moving slowly and deliberately to show that there was no rush to judgment, and the decision was made after the emotional component of the matter had died down.

Let the process play itself out. 

This is not a judicial process, there was no presumption of innocence. This is a kangaroo court being run by a bunch of people that shouldn't be burdened with the responsibility of deciding whether or not a criminal action happened. We have the police and a real court system to handle that. 

[slu72]

What I've learned from 119 pages of posts on this topic:

1.) Drinking diminishes one's ability to make good judgements whether your male or female when it comes to sex.  (Shouldn't really say that's a totally new revelation).

2.) That SLU is totally flummoxed when it comes to dealing with sexual situations involving athletes. (Strong indications of this appeared in Sit 1, good to see nothings changed.)

3.) That this board has a few posters who know more about Title IX investigations than the bureaucrats who wrote the regs. (Now this is surprising since most of us on here don't know how to decipher Roman numerals. However, these authorities on Title IX are relatively new posters who just popped up out of nowhere.)

4.) That we really need the Sit 2 Three back on the floor like yesterday. (I hear Travelocity is looking for a new Captain Obvious. Certain posters on here should apply.)

5.) That it ain't over 'til it's over, which has been repeated at least about a 575 friggin ' time in these 119 pages.  ( By the way the guy that coined this pearl of wisdom grew up in Saint Louis, so we got that going for us.)

There are a few more things I've learned in these 119 pages, but since I've been involved this afternoon in lesson Number 1 (without the sex) at the men's grill room, I can't recall the others right now.

[Wendelprof]

1 hour ago, billiken_roy said:

we've done that for nearly 3 months.   it took nbc about 3 hours to fire matt lauer.   

please post the time line and actual duties being performed that justify three months to still not make a decision.   i assume most of the three months is adjustment for committee personal schedules regulating the rights of the accused to a secondary status and painfully dragging this out for everyone.   there is no reasonable reason this has went on this long.  

 

make a decision.  

Easy to criticize when it is not your job on the line, and not your money that will have to pay for any follow-up litigation.  The school administrators are stewards of the money that has been donated to the school, and using it in any follow-up litigation that may challenges the process is not what the typical donor had in mind.

How many on the board have written the school and offered to mortgage their houses to help raise funds to pay for any follow-up litigation?

 

[HenryB]

1 hour ago, Tilkowsky said:

If the accusers were a daughter of yours - would you want a rush to judgement.

Again, you may not like the decision.

Who are you to demand anything?, 

If the accused were your sons would you want their reputations thoroughly trashed by a process that appears to be stacked against them?

[Wendelprof]

40 minutes ago, hoppybeer said:

This is not a judicial process, there was no presumption of innocence. This is a kangaroo court being run by a bunch of people that shouldn't be burdened with the responsibility of deciding whether or not a criminal action happened. We have the police and a real court system to handle that. 

Actually the Title IX process is being analogized more and more to a judicial process, and the courts have been instrumental in that evolution.  Schools that have not applied a presumption of innocence have gotten themselves into trouble (subsequent litigation).  But more importantly, the matter is not about whether or not a criminal action happened.  The matter is over whether there was a violation of the school's code of conduct.  That school is more than happy to leave any potential criminal matters to the police and the "real" courts.  The problem here is the video is evidence of a likely violation of the school's code of conduct.  It is just a question of what the punishment should be.  That turns on the details of the violation, which turns on the details of what actually (who said what when, and who did what when), and none of us know that.  Easy to speculate, but the devil is in the details, and we'll likely never know them.

You either trust the process or you don't.  I prefer to assume that everyone involved in the process will do their best because I believe in and support not only the basketball team but the university.  If later it turns out someone involved in the process didn't do their job, then I'll be happy to join in the criticism.  It is criticism based on no facts whatsoever - other than the delay - that I find unfair to the university, and if one is familiar with Title IX investigations, this delay has not been unreasonable yet.  If it gets into next semester, then I agree something has gone wrong, but once the university decided to bring in an outside investigator they lost control of the timeline.  They knew that was a risk, but no doubt they decided the benefits of using an outside investigator outweighed that risk.

[cheeseman]

2 hours ago, Wendelprof said:

kshoe,

I don't think you understand the climate on college campuses due to Title IX.  I personally know of a kid who is probably your typical freshman.  Went to a typical college party.  He drank some, the girl drank some, they went back to her room, they fooled around some more (nothing - repeat nothing - went below the waist), and then they both fell asleep.  She woke up the next morning, regretted her decision, claimed the consent was not effective because of the alcohol, and the male student was suspended from the university for a whole semester.  The university is a private institution, but not a Catholic or religious one.  The kid was just your typical freshman - not on any sports teams.  She was just a typical freshman, no special connections.  Yes, kids do these things and make bad decisions, but universities are running scared of Title IX complaints because of the way the federal government overseas and reviews them.  Kids are routinely being suspended for much less than what was alleged happened here.  If the players are suspended, it will not be because the basketball program is held to a different standard.  We know about this incident because the kids happened to be on the team and therefore people notice their absence, but this happens in Title IX complaints all the time.

I think the fact that the university went outside to hire an investigator gives some hope for a more impartial review and analysis.  But if you know the fuller history and record of Title IX complaints, you'd be expecting some kind of punishment.  My guess is the players have been held out to date in the hope that the school will decide that is punishment enough, but I'm not optimistic (I'd be thrilled if we get one or more of them back, but truly surprised if we get them all back).  I'd prepare yourself for a less than ideal outcome.

 

 

Your story makes no sense.  If this changed her mind after only a little petting as you described then she needs to grow up.  Maybe it is time for single sex high schools to come to an end so these kids don't think that their virginity has been lost when it has not. (smiley face here)

The other important point here - I was a superintendent of a large school district so none of this stuff is new to me - if you are going to run scared of everything and everybody then get out of the kitchen if it is too hot.  My experience with the Feds was that if you made a good faith effort and still screwed up then they usually would slap your hand and tell you not to do it again plus help educate you so you do not stub your toe again.  Now if you know that SLU  has dropped the ball more than once already then shame on them for keeping the knuckleheads.  This is not rocket science - any lawyer who specializes in this area can easily navigate the school through this without any serious consequences.  Finally, if the school is letting the current atmosphere  make them act in a way that is unfair to all parties then shame on them - right is right and wrong is wrong regardless of the politics - it is called leadership. 

[Wendelprof]

6 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

Your story makes no sense.  If this changed her mind after only a little petting as you described then she needs to grow up.  Maybe it is time for single sex high schools to come to an end so these kids don't think that their virginity has been lost when it has not. (smiley face here)

Cheeseman,

Trust me, I wish this story made no sense because I agree completely with you that the school's reaction and punishment made no sense.  But that's what schools are doing.  That's what I mean when I write that you have to understand the current climate in many universities to understand how difficult this situation is.  Now, I will add one more fact - that university had received a letter from the federal government warning it about the way it had been handling Title IX complaints to that point.  Think that might have influenced the school's decision?  But that's the pressure some schools are under, and that's how some schools react.  And again, let me clarify, that school was not SLU. 

Again, I'm confident that SLU is doing its very best to find a fair and just solution to this matter.  Let the process run its course.

[JettFlight5]

But these investigations actually amount to very little. Since Title IX was passed into law in 1972, not a single school has ever lost any federal funding for Title IX violations

https://feminist.org/education/TitleIXQA.pdf

http://www.berkeleyside.com/2017/08/16/opinion-violating-title-ix-no-problem-according-betsy-devos/

So no school has EVER lost federal funding due to Title IX non-compliance. I think, like many others here, the decision needs to be made. 

[Old guy]

Come on Kshoe, it is time to ask me to repeat my usual message to this board, where are you when you are needed?

[billiken_roy]

1 hour ago, Wendelprof said:

Easy to criticize when it is not your job on the line, and not your money that will have to pay for any follow-up litigation.  The school administrators are stewards of the money that has been donated to the school, and using it in any follow-up litigation that may challenges the process is not what the typical donor had in mind.

How many on the board have written the school and offered to mortgage their houses to help raise funds to pay for any follow-up litigation?

 

Just lay out the timeline for us why it's taken three months.  

[Billboy1]

Any lawsuits are the fault of the administrators for the poor handling..

[Wendelprof]

54 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

Just lay out the timeline for us why it's taken three months.  

Once the school made the decision to hire an outside investigator, they lost control over the timeline.  I assume that investigator has other on-going investigations.  The investigator needs to find time to (a) come to St. Louis if he or she doesn't live there; (b) make appointments to talk with anyone and everyone who might have been involved in the matter (including witnesses who might have heard or seen things before the actual incident itself that might have been relevant to questions of capacity at the time of the incident); (c) contact an expert to help evaluate the issues inherent in the alleged posting of the video (depending on the quality of the video it might need to be enhanced to ascertain actually who is in the video doing what), and (d) maybe talk to the police and possibly medical officials if the women went for medical treatment following the incident.  All of those people will need to be careful about what they say and how they say it as they will immediately appreciate the significance of the matter and the risk of possible litigation down the road.  Some may have even contacted their own attorneys before deciding what to say and under what conditions.  The investigator cannot compel people to talk as this is not a criminal or civil matter at this stage.

Then the investigator has to write up a report detailing all of that.  If the report is going to include recommendations, the investigator has to perform some research to see how similar cases have been handled (if that information is available) and then compare and contrast the current matter.  All of that while working on other cases no doubt.  I doubt the investigator got the case right away, but I assume he or she received the matter after a week or two.  For whatever reason, the investigator did not complete that part of the process within the suggested time, warranting the school to actually issue an acknowledgement of that (rare for that to happen).

As best we know, the investigator's final report was filed with the school last week.  As many on this board have said, now it is in the school's hands - but not completely.  During the comment period both sides have to read the report (who knows how long it is).  Depending on whether the report includes comments from medical or video experts, either side may now have to quickly track down an expert of their own, have that expert review the report, and ask that expert to write up an expert opinion.  And again, those people aren't just sitting at home with nothing to do, they usually already have a full load.  It takes time for them to fit it into their schedule.

Once the comment period ends, now I assume it is completely within the university's hands for the next step - the decision.  The hearing officer has to read and review all of the material that has been submitted (we have no clue how much it is - could be hundreds of pages).  No doubt the hearing officer will read it over very carefully and several times as I would guess there will be inconsistencies in the comments from the two sides.  Each side will do their best to spin the facts in a way that favors their client.  There may even be legal arguments that have been raised since it has been reported on the board that the players have attorneys representing them.  All good from a due process perspective, but that usually complicates the matter even more as it may no longer simply be a question of fact, but now it may be moving into a question of law.  The hearing officer probably is not a trained judge or lawyer, so he or she may need legal assistance from someone who is.  That requires the school to find the appropriate person and for that person to read everything, do some research, and then advise the hearing officer.

Once the hearing officer finally reaches a decision and writes it up (which will take time and he or she will realize the importance of it for all parties involved), that will start an appeal time period.  Repeat the paragraph above.  Both sides will probably file an appeal.  The appeals will contradict each other, so the party/parties hearing the appeal will have to read everything over very very carefully again, and there may even be oral arguments where the parties' representatives can answer questions the judges may have.  And then the appeal panel has to discuss the matter, come to an agreement on the appropriate penalty for each party, and write up an opinion.  Trust me, if there is more than one appeal officer involved, it is likely they will disagree on something and have to hash it out.

That's a quick and relative simple description of the process.  It takes time.  The hope and goal is that each party does his or her best job at each phase of the process.  Doing it right always takes longer.  

I agree if this extends into next semester it is fair to start criticizing the university.  Until then, I think they are simply following the process and giving each party his or her due process, as each party is entitled to, before issuing their final ruling.

[slufan13]

Good God.....

[slufan13]

No matter how many 5 paragraph essay posts we get about how slu is handling this correctly, fans are still going to be pissed at the length and likely the result of this investigation. 

The title ix committee at SLU is something like 11 women and 1 man. Combine that with Pestello being a people pleaser with no backbone and it becomes a recipe for disaster for the basketball players. 

I can't take this anymore. Wake me up when SLU finally decides to make a decision 

[keyser soze]

2 minutes ago, slufan13 said:

Good God.....

On a Friday night to boot.

now I have Madonna’s song “Live to Tell” stuck in my head....

[moytoy12]

45 minutes ago, Wendelprof said:

Once the school made the decision to hire an outside investigator, they lost control over the timeline.  I assume that investigator has other on-going investigations.  The investigator needs to find time to (a) come to St. Louis if he or she doesn't live there; (b) make appointments to talk with anyone and everyone who might have been involved in the matter (including witnesses who might have heard or seen things before the actual incident itself that might have been relevant to questions of capacity at the time of the incident); (c) contact an expert to help evaluate the issues inherent in the alleged posting of the video (depending on the quality of the video it might need to be enhanced to ascertain actually who is in the video doing what), and (d) maybe talk to the police and possibly medical officials if the women went for medical treatment following the incident.  All of those people will need to be careful about what they say and how they say it as they will immediately appreciate the significance of the matter and the risk of possible litigation down the road.  Some may have even contacted their own attorneys before deciding what to say and under what conditions.  The investigator cannot compel people to talk as this is not a criminal or civil matter at this stage.

Then the investigator has to write up a report detailing all of that.  If the report is going to include recommendations, the investigator has to perform some research to see how similar cases have been handled (if that information is available) and then compare and contrast the current matter.  All of that while working on other cases no doubt.  I doubt the investigator got the case right away, but I assume he or she received the matter after a week or two.  For whatever reason, the investigator did not complete that part of the process within the suggested time, warranting the school to actually issue an acknowledgement of that (rare for that to happen).

As best we know, the investigator's final report was filed with the school last week.  As many on this board have said, now it is in the school's hands - but not completely.  During the comment period both sides have to read the report (who knows how long it is).  Depending on whether the report includes comments from medical or video experts, either side may now have to quickly track down an expert of their own, have that expert review the report, and ask that expert to write up an expert opinion.  And again, those people aren't just sitting at home with nothing to do, they usually already have a full load.  It takes time for them to fit it into their schedule.

Once the comment period ends, now I assume it is completely within the university's hands for the next step - the decision.  The hearing officer has to read and review all of the material that has been submitted (we have no clue how much it is - could be hundreds of pages).  No doubt the hearing officer will read it over very carefully and several times as I would guess there will be inconsistencies in the comments from the two sides.  Each side will do their best to spin the facts in a way that favors their client.  There may even be legal arguments that have been raised since it has been reported on the board that the players have attorneys representing them.  All good from a due process perspective, but that usually complicates the matter even more as it may no longer simply be a question of fact, but now it may be moving into a question of law.  The hearing officer probably is not a trained judge or lawyer, so he or she may need legal assistance from someone who is.  That requires the school to find the appropriate person and for that person to read everything, do some research, and then advise the hearing officer.

Once the hearing officer finally reaches a decision and writes it up (which will take time and he or she will realize the importance of it for all parties involved), that will start an appeal time period.  Repeat the paragraph above.  Both sides will probably file an appeal.  The appeals will contradict each other, so the party/parties hearing the appeal will have to read everything over very very carefully again, and there may even be oral arguments where the parties' representatives can answer questions the judges may have.  And then the appeal panel has to discuss the matter, come to an agreement on the appropriate penalty for each party, and write up an opinion.  Trust me, if there is more than one appeal officer involved, it is likely they will disagree on something and have to hash it out.

That's a quick and relative simple description of the process.  It takes time.  The hope and goal is that each party does his or her best job at each phase of the process.  Doing it right always takes longer.  

I agree if this extends into next semester it is fair to start criticizing the university.  Until then, I think they are simply following the process and giving each party his or her due process, as each party is entitled to, before issuing their final ruling.

And this is the process (and dissertation) you get when you combine academia with professionals paid by the hour.  

[Schasz]

44 minutes ago, slufan13 said:

No matter how many 5 paragraph essay posts we get about how slu is handling this correctly, fans are still going to be pissed at the length and likely the result of this investigation. 

The title ix committee at SLU is something like 11 women and 1 man. Combine that with Pestello being a people pleaser with no backbone and it becomes a recipe for disaster for the basketball players. 

I can't take this anymore. Wake me up when SLU finally decides to make a decision 

Dilly Dilly

[teamarete]

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article190061649.html

Story above about a possible rape investigation regarding Kansas players.  No players found guilty of sexual assault or rape, I also don't recall any players suspended for either while the investigation was going on either.  One player was suspended for drug activity.

 

[billiken_roy]

1 hour ago, Wendelprof said:

Once the school made the decision to hire an outside investigator, they lost control over the timeline.  I assume that investigator has other on-going investigations.  The investigator needs to find time to (a) come to St. Louis if he or she doesn't live there; (b) make appointments to talk with anyone and everyone who might have been involved in the matter (including witnesses who might have heard or seen things before the actual incident itself that might have been relevant to questions of capacity at the time of the incident); (c) contact an expert to help evaluate the issues inherent in the alleged posting of the video (depending on the quality of the video it might need to be enhanced to ascertain actually who is in the video doing what), and (d) maybe talk to the police and possibly medical officials if the women went for medical treatment following the incident.  All of those people will need to be careful about what they say and how they say it as they will immediately appreciate the significance of the matter and the risk of possible litigation down the road.  Some may have even contacted their own attorneys before deciding what to say and under what conditions.  The investigator cannot compel people to talk as this is not a criminal or civil matter at this stage.

Then the investigator has to write up a report detailing all of that.  If the report is going to include recommendations, the investigator has to perform some research to see how similar cases have been handled (if that information is available) and then compare and contrast the current matter.  All of that while working on other cases no doubt.  I doubt the investigator got the case right away, but I assume he or she received the matter after a week or two.  For whatever reason, the investigator did not complete that part of the process within the suggested time, warranting the school to actually issue an acknowledgement of that (rare for that to happen).

As best we know, the investigator's final report was filed with the school last week.  As many on this board have said, now it is in the school's hands - but not completely.  During the comment period both sides have to read the report (who knows how long it is).  Depending on whether the report includes comments from medical or video experts, either side may now have to quickly track down an expert of their own, have that expert review the report, and ask that expert to write up an expert opinion.  And again, those people aren't just sitting at home with nothing to do, they usually already have a full load.  It takes time for them to fit it into their schedule.

Once the comment period ends, now I assume it is completely within the university's hands for the next step - the decision.  The hearing officer has to read and review all of the material that has been submitted (we have no clue how much it is - could be hundreds of pages).  No doubt the hearing officer will read it over very carefully and several times as I would guess there will be inconsistencies in the comments from the two sides.  Each side will do their best to spin the facts in a way that favors their client.  There may even be legal arguments that have been raised since it has been reported on the board that the players have attorneys representing them.  All good from a due process perspective, but that usually complicates the matter even more as it may no longer simply be a question of fact, but now it may be moving into a question of law.  The hearing officer probably is not a trained judge or lawyer, so he or she may need legal assistance from someone who is.  That requires the school to find the appropriate person and for that person to read everything, do some research, and then advise the hearing officer.

Once the hearing officer finally reaches a decision and writes it up (which will take time and he or she will realize the importance of it for all parties involved), that will start an appeal time period.  Repeat the paragraph above.  Both sides will probably file an appeal.  The appeals will contradict each other, so the party/parties hearing the appeal will have to read everything over very very carefully again, and there may even be oral arguments where the parties' representatives can answer questions the judges may have.  And then the appeal panel has to discuss the matter, come to an agreement on the appropriate penalty for each party, and write up an opinion.  Trust me, if there is more than one appeal officer involved, it is likely they will disagree on something and have to hash it out.

That's a quick and relative simple description of the process.  It takes time.  The hope and goal is that each party does his or her best job at each phase of the process.  Doing it right always takes longer.  

I agree if this extends into next semester it is fair to start criticizing the university.  Until then, I think they are simply following the process and giving each party his or her due process, as each party is entitled to, before issuing their final ruling.

That should take about 3 weeks

And you are wrong slu loses control when they hired an outside firm.  They hired as in they employed they are the boss.

Make a decision

[dlarry]

4 hours ago, Wendelprof said:

Cheeseman,

Trust me, I wish this story made no sense because I agree completely with you that the school's reaction and punishment made no sense.  But that's what schools are doing.  That's what I mean when I write that you have to understand the current climate in many universities to understand how difficult this situation is.  Now, I will add one more fact - that university had received a letter from the federal government warning it about the way it had been handling Title IX complaints to that point.  Think that might have influenced the school's decision?  But that's the pressure some schools are under, and that's how some schools react.  And again, let me clarify, that school was not SLU. 

Again, I'm confident that SLU is doing its very best to find a fair and just solution to this matter.  Let the process run its course.

So basically on a college campuses a female with a sense of regret is the same as a female who has actually been assaulted. 

I hope that guy sued the pants off the girl and the school.

[slufanskip]

7 hours ago, GBL_Bills said:

No, because they're not being accused of sexual assault?

This isn't that hard. The players are not being prohibited from playing games because they got caught having sex. They're prohibited from playing because they were accused of sexual assault. Whether or not students should be suspended during a Title IX investigation is a different question, and one that can reasonably result in a debate.

If it turns out there was no proof of sexual assault then it becomes a matter of SLU's code of conduct and by suspending the players before it was determined they were guilty is in effect determining them to be guilty. If it turns out they were not guilty of sexual assault and just broke SLU's code of conduct, I'll be hoping they sue the f..k out of SLU and win. If it's determined they are guilty of sexual assault kick them out of school immediately. Schools have no business regulating the legal sexual conduct of adults. 

[slufanskip]

5 hours ago, hoppybeer said:

This is not a judicial process, there was no presumption of innocence. This is a kangaroo court being run by a bunch of people that shouldn't be burdened with the responsibility of deciding whether or not a criminal action happened. We have the police and a real court system to handle that. 

+1