Off Topic - Group Calls For SLU to Pay Reparations to Slave Descendants

[TheA_Bomb]

8 minutes ago, BrettJollyComedyHour said:

Likely because those jobs often take a toll on you physically and leave your body broken by the time you're 50.

50/50

[Pistol]

18 minutes ago, thetorch said:

It is one thing to entertain a political movement.  It is another to placate to a group who is making baseless claims and seeking extraordinary damages through lies and faulty economics.  By catering to the extreme, in this case a group requesting hundreds of millions of dollars, Pestello has set himself up to pay a higher price.  What he should do is shut them down until they have a much more reasonable and thought out case.

What SLU should be doing for reparations is lowering the cost of their programs, cutting useless majors that don't equal jobs in our economy, and place a focus on creating majors that foster entrepreneurship, new technologies, and real free market economics.  I hate to see an institution of higher learning embracing Marxist policies of wealth distribution and foisting it on their students and donors.  

There are 50 million people currently living in slavery in the world today.  That is a worthwhile cause that SLU should be addressing.  If they want a mea culpa for past acts fix the current problems happening right now.

I've spent the almost 2 decades of my career looking at risk mitigation for private individuals all the way up through some of the largest companies on the planet. In pretty much every instance, taking a smaller, manageable hit up front to remove a larger unknown downside is the way to go.

It doesn't matter if you agree with them or not. It doesn't matter if their numbers are meaningful at all. It doesn't matter if their reasons are pure or flawed or whatever. What matters is the ongoing financial health of the institution.

"Shutting them down" puts you at risk of taking a beating in the press (and among your own students and faculty) and going to court with the people asking for reparations. A smart leader works to avoid those outcomes.

[BrettJollyComedyHour]

2 minutes ago, billikenfan05 said:

You can probably save and invest more money and retire by the time you're 50. Not everybody is made for college, not every body is made for trades. I was made for neither as far as I can tell, I chose college. I don't regret it, but I don't not regret it. 

I'm not discounting it for sure, but the recent shouting from the rooftops about trades being the answer to college costs/benefits, etc just confuses me.

[TheA_Bomb]

Agree with @Pistol not taking a side on this group's goals, but taking the side of protecting the University Image.  An image of this group being barred from campus adds to their cause. As inaccurately reported, "their ancestors built the campus".

De-escalate the situation. Avoid more negative publicity.

Also I recommend changing the news cycle by firing the AD and Head Basketball Coach. 

[wgstl]

Agreed but still doesn’t it make it okay 

[TheA_Bomb]

26 minutes ago, BrettJollyComedyHour said:

I'm not discounting it for sure, but the recent shouting from the rooftops about trades being the answer to college costs/benefits, etc just confuses me.

I think it's become a thing because it seems for years college was pushed as the way. There's plenty of good jobs that make as much or more that work for people that just might not be into going to college. So I'm not against pushing Trades.  It should not have a stigma as being less than a college degree.

I've no problem with people studying what they want to study. It only becomes our issue when they expect tax payers to pick up the bill. Get rid of that aspect and you can study Transexual History of Mesopotamia all day long. Which is what I studied look for my forthcoming book, "Tucking the Tower of Babel: Translife in the First Civilization" available on audible.

[willie]

41 minutes ago, JMM28 said:

This is what all schools need to be doing, frankly. There is a reckoning that has arrived at a lot of places already and is coming for all. There are lower high school graduating classes. Lower applicant pools. More people saying "Wait why wouldn't I go to a trade union apprenticeship and make 60-70k by the time I am 21?" Multi million dollar budget deficits are wiping out useless programs all over the country. Some of these being triggered by defaults on debts for lack of revenue because of that declining enrollment. It isn't going to be a pretty place in higher education over the next decade, I assume. 

I am connected to a group that gives scholarships to Ranken Tech . It's not cheap but obviously less than  a four year college. Many programs are 3 years or more. Some programs have starting salaries in the 100k area. They even have an engineering program where you finish at Washington U. 

[brianstl]

48 minutes ago, JMM28 said:

This is what all schools need to be doing, frankly. There is a reckoning that has arrived at a lot of places already and is coming for all. There are lower high school graduating classes. Lower applicant pools. More people saying "Wait why wouldn't I go to a trade union apprenticeship and make 60-70k by the time I am 21?" Multi million dollar budget deficits are wiping out useless programs all over the country. Some of these being triggered by defaults on debts for lack of revenue because of that declining enrollment. It isn't going to be a pretty place in higher education over the next decade, I assume. 

It is even more than 60-70k now.  Just checked IBEW Local 1's journeymen pay three years ago was over $40 dollars per hour that goes on your paycheck, plus $28 an hour in fringe benefits like healthcare and pension.  You work 1,700 hours and you are looking at just under $120k in total compensation.  Pretty damn good while incurring no debt and earning $30-45K a year going through the apprenticeship program.

[Soderball]

57 minutes ago, brianstl said:

It is even more than 60-70k now.  Just checked IBEW Local 1's journeymen pay three years ago was over $40 dollars per hour that goes on your paycheck, plus $28 an hour in fringe benefits like healthcare and pension.  You work 1,700 hours and you are looking at just under $120k in total compensation.  Pretty damn good while incurring no debt and earning $30-45K a year going through the apprenticeship program.

That's the union difference, baby. Love mentioning the great benefits that come along with it. Don't forget that you also have due process in the workplace and are protected from random/arbitrary termination.

[SLU_Lax]

2 hours ago, BrettJollyComedyHour said:

I'm not discounting it for sure, but the recent shouting from the rooftops about trades being the answer to college costs/benefits, etc just confuses me.

Agree.  It is a viable option and one that many individuals do not give the appropriate consideration to, but people often exaggerate the benefits and discount the downsides.  Just like college and many other options have significant upsides and downsides that varies based on individual circumstances.

[SLU_Lax]

2 hours ago, TheA_Bomb said:

I think it's become a thing because it seems for years college was pushed as the way. There's plenty of good jobs that make as much or more that work for people that just might not be into going to college. So I'm not against pushing Trades.  It should not have a stigma as being less than a college degree.

I've no problem with people studying what they want to study. It only becomes our issue when they expect tax payers to pick up the bill. Get rid of that aspect and you can study Transexual History of Mesopotamia all day long. Which is what I studied look for my forthcoming book, "Tucking the Tower of Babel: Translife in the First Civilization" available on audible.

Obviously your example is an extreme example, but from a strictly financial perspective Missouri and St. Louis have a VERY strong interest in having the strongest colleges possible at the most affordable prices in the area.  If the local populace (i.e. workforce) is more skilled, then more companies will come in with more jobs and higher paying jobs (and will build buildings and everything else) and tax revenue will go up.  Educating people is a crucial component in keeping any area vibrant and growing.  I understand the point on avoiding subjects that are not really enhancing the skills of the local workforce.

I do not view this topic as a college versus the trades item.  Government should has a financial interest in having a workforce that is proficient in all the trades as well.

[TheA_Bomb]

1 hour ago, SLU_Lax said:

Obviously your example is an extreme example, but from a strictly financial perspective Missouri and St. Louis have a VERY strong interest in having the strongest colleges possible at the most affordable prices in the area.  If the local populace (i.e. workforce) is more skilled, then more companies will come in with more jobs and higher paying jobs (and will build buildings and everything else) and tax revenue will go up.  Educating people is a crucial component in keeping any area vibrant and growing.  I understand the point on avoiding subjects that are not really enhancing the skills of the local workforce.

I do not view this topic as a college versus the trades item.  Government should has a financial interest in having a workforce that is proficient in all the trades as well.

I have no problem with supporting universities or supporting education through taxes, to a certain extent.  My issue is, if I go to Oberlin college and pay my tuition with student loans and study something that doesn't feed a career field that allows me to pay off those student loans it is not incumbent on the tax payer to pay for that through loan forgiveness.  That is an individual decision. The guy hurting his back welding underneath a bridge didn't need to pay off that debt.

[AnkielBreakers]

8 hours ago, Pistol said:

 

Maybe SLU understands that banning them from campus or forcing them off campus could do major damage to SLU's case. If SLU wants to get off on the right foot with this group and limit its financial downside, they're doing the right thing by letting them use campus for this. You don't have to like it to be able to understand the optics. It's not a question of strong vs. weak leadership, it's smart vs. stupid.

Meanwhile, I'm looking at how other colleges have responded when faced with the same or similar circumstances. There's a wide range:

• Virginia passed a law requiring 5 public universities (including VCU) to "make reparations through scholarships or community-based economic development and memorial programs".
• Georgetown created a $400,000-a-year reparations fund.
• Harvard set up a $100 million endowment fund for slavery reparations (Harvard's primary endowment is estimated to be near $50 billion).

UVA set up Universities Studying Slavery (USS), a consortium of over 100 colleges sharing best practices as they work through dealing with slavery in their histories. SLU is one of the schools participating.

SLU is one of many schools facing pressure from what is a national movement. I haven't been able to find any legal precedent that suggests SLU would actually be on the hook for a large amount of money. More likely, SLU will work with this group to address it in a way that involves a financial commitment, education, and memorialization, and it won't be anywhere near the numbers we're seeing in the headlines. If SLU actually does become the school that has to work through the legal system for this case, the current judiciary is going to be friendlier to the defendants than the plaintiffs. If it goes all the way to the top, I don't think the people who just killed affirmative action are going to open the door to broad-based reparations.

SLU will be fine.

Nm.

[thetorch]

11 hours ago, Pistol said:

I've spent the almost 2 decades of my career looking at risk mitigation for private individuals all the way up through some of the largest companies on the planet. In pretty much every instance, taking a smaller, manageable hit up front to remove a larger unknown downside is the way to go.

It doesn't matter if you agree with them or not. It doesn't matter if their numbers are meaningful at all. It doesn't matter if their reasons are pure or flawed or whatever. What matters is the ongoing financial health of the institution.

"Shutting them down" puts you at risk of taking a beating in the press (and among your own students and faculty) and going to court with the people asking for reparations. A smart leader works to avoid those outcomes.

I spent nearly 3 decades running grocery stores.  The bane of my existence was the Slip N Fall artist.  Some lawyer or accountant around 2005 figured out that it was somehow cheaper to pay off every slip n fall artist for a few grand, than possibly pay a huge sum in court.  Once word got around I had guys and gals falling in my store on Grand & Chippewa on a daily basis.  Sadly one of the reasons that chain went out of business.  That location alone was responsible for millions in settlements every year.  Insurance skyrocketed, other crime in the store increased, all ways to stop it ended up in guess what "a possible lawsuit" that a company beancounter would tell us to pay off again to make it go away.

What did we do prior to 2005?  We would have a slip n fall, look at the cameras, if it was an obvious fake or a known repeat offender we'd say we needed to do the paperwork in the back office with them.  The smart criminals would just leave, say forget it.  The dumb ones would end up getting thrown off the back dock after a beating.  I could cover the sales floor in grease for the next 6 months after that and no one would fall down.  It wasn't pretty and it wasn't fun but people knew not to scam my store anymore.  That is how you deal with grifters.

[Old guy]

Again I am posting what I am afraid will be a very unpopular viewpoint. It is simple really. if we all are to have freedom of speech we all have to allow other people to say things you personally do not like or agree with. This does not mean the place you work for cannot have their own policy you must follow. There is a vast difference between regulation or policies and freedom of speech. The people in charge decide policy or regulation, freedom of speech is individual.

The people in charge decide what is to be done. Freedom of speech, what you say and believe in, is a personal matter which, by the way, is protected by the Constitution. This protection works protecting all sides of an argument, at least until a decision is reached by whoever it is that decides those matters, ultimately the Supreme Court.

I hate to tell you this A Bomb, but welders other trades people have to learn a lot, before they can do what they do properly and safely.

[Taj79]

In all seriousness, how many institutions or similar entities were built way back when and could be argued in today's legal wasteland along these same lines?  If the Jesuits owned slaves, didn't all the Jesuits somewhere along the line?  Georgetown for example?  What about places in the deep South like Duke and Tulane?  Did Chinese slaves build the Trans Continetal Railroad?  Pendleton, Oregon, has a whole "underground" museum devoted to the plight of the Chinese when they were building.  Seems they couldn't walk the streets and actually had to go literally 'underground' after hours.  It's a tourist item now.  Maybe the Golden Gate Bridge?  Or the Empire State Building.  Better yet, how about the New York Stock Exchange. 

Git yerself a little sumthin.

[BillTheCat]

My ancestors built this and I'm pretty sure they were short-changed...

 

I'm pissed on their behalf and accept Venmo.

 

[majerus mojo]

1 hour ago, Taj79 said:

In all seriousness, how many institutions or similar entities were built way back when and could be argued in today's legal wasteland along these same lines?  If the Jesuits owned slaves, didn't all the Jesuits somewhere along the line?  Georgetown for example?  What about places in the deep South like Duke and Tulane?  Did Chinese slaves build the Trans Continetal Railroad?  Pendleton, Oregon, has a whole "underground" museum devoted to the plight of the Chinese when they were building.  Seems they couldn't walk the streets and actually had to go literally 'underground' after hours.  It's a tourist item now.  Maybe the Golden Gate Bridge?  Or the Empire State Building.  Better yet, how about the New York Stock Exchange. 

Git yerself a little sumthin.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_at_American_colleges_and_universities

[Lord Elrond]

1 hour ago, Taj79 said:

In all seriousness, how many institutions or similar entities were built way back when and could be argued in today's legal wasteland along these same lines?  If the Jesuits owned slaves, didn't all the Jesuits somewhere along the line?  Georgetown for example?  What about places in the deep South like Duke and Tulane?  Did Chinese slaves build the Trans Continetal Railroad?  Pendleton, Oregon, has a whole "underground" museum devoted to the plight of the Chinese when they were building.  Seems they couldn't walk the streets and actually had to go literally 'underground' after hours.  It's a tourist item now.  Maybe the Golden Gate Bridge?  Or the Empire State Building.  Better yet, how about the New York Stock Exchange. 

Git yerself a little sumthin.

They have gone after Georgetown, to the tune of both a $27 million dollar payment (split between the university and the Jesuit Order) to the descendants of slaves owned by Georgetown, and a $400,000 annual fund to support community based projects.  Links below concerning the Georgetown settlement (past tense). This is not just some movement aimed only after SLU, this is something that has gone on for years and has gotten payments from numerous universities.  Even Brown in Rhode Island.  No slaves built Brown, but the Brown family got its money from the family business, the transatlantic slave trade, or triangle trade (molasses to rum to slaves). They funded an endowment for this back in 2006. This thing finally reached SLU is all.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiI-p_b7K6EAxV6ANAFHeoaDUwQFnoECD0QAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2023%2F09%2F14%2Fus%2Fgeorgetown-university-jesuits-enslaved-people-gift-reaj%2Findex.html&usg=AOvVaw2cqgQG6m7VBb8aJd11bqBd&opi=89978449
 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiI-p_b7K6EAxV6ANAFHeoaDUwQFnoECBMQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.georgetown.edu%2Fnews%2Fgeorgetown-launches-400000-annual-fund-to-support-descendants-of-the-enslaved%2F&usg=AOvVaw3U86amTawt2TVL3ZkCOc5m&opi=89978449

[Old guy]

Look guys, slavery has been around since the times of the earliest civilizations on record. We all know the Hebrews were slaves of the Egyptians way back when, check your bible. They happened to have friends up above, but slaves they were. This was not a status that was created after the discovery of America. Slavery has always been enforced forcefully, and has always been oppressive to the enslaved ones, period. The Jesuits are not free of the slavery sin in any way imaginable, and neither is the Church.

The thing that always made America different was our freedoms, and full freedom for everyone had to wait until after the Civil War. At least we tried to provide freedom for everybody. Freedom of speech is required for this freedom to work. And, as it always has been, if you have a history of oppression through slavery and are capable to enforce reparations through the legal system, whatever you personally may think about the legal system nowadays, the more power to you. 

If you are interested in deep historical studies, you should consider "The Study of History" by Arnold  Toynbee (13 volumes including a maps volume, but fortunately available in single volume condensed versions), and "The Silk Road" (the  full version not the abbreviated one called "The New Silk Road") by Peter Frankopan, Oxford Press. The Toynbee work may be difficult to get, it was published mid XX century.

[CenHudDude]

On 2/15/2024 at 9:38 PM, BillTheCat said:

My ancestors built this and I'm pretty sure they were short-changed...

 

I'm pissed on their behalf and accept Venmo.

 

Too bad you don’t accept PayPal.  I may have sent you a few bucks.

[BillTheCat]

1 minute ago, CenHudDude said:

Too bad you don’t accept PayPal.  I may have sent you a few bucks.

PayPal fees are racist.

[brianstl]

4 hours ago, BillTheCat said:

PayPal fees are racist.

Cash App and the hoard of cash at home are the way to go.