2023-2024 Season

[BrettJollyComedyHour]

4 hours ago, almaman said:

We won't be everyone's big game like we've been the last few years.

Maybe that's good for us? We seem to like to fly under the radar and make a push in February/March in off years.

[VeniceMenace]

15 hours ago, willie said:

 

Might be a stretch but I see Parker with Perkins ability. I definitely thought Ford underplayed him last year. Would not shock me to see him and Jimerson fighting for team scoring lead  

 

 

Underplayed like Hargrove before him.

[thetorch]

8 hours ago, VeniceMenace said:

Underplayed like Hargrove before him.

Has Hargrove been underplayed?

His defense comes and goes.  His interior defense is better than perimeter but he's too small to really be effective.  Ball handling is sub par, shooting is at best average.  He can dunk in the open floor.  Never developed any back to the basket game.  He's had favorable matchup before that he can exploit but on a good team a 6'3 tweener is at the back end of the rotation.  He certainly hasn't improved very much over 4 seasons.

[billiken_roy]

When Darrell Griffith came to Louisville he was a spectacular 6'3" dunker he got better shooting, ball handling and defending every year.   His summer work ethic was legendary 

I'm not saying hargrove and Griffith were ever equal but Griffith GREATLY improved over 4 years with hard work.   I have never heard that about hargrove 

[3star_recruit]

Darrell Griffith averaged 13 ppg and 2 apg in only 23 minutes a game as a freshman.  He could already get to the rim at will and pass a little bit.  His jump shot was just suspect.  

At the college level, the super athletic guy needs to be able to get to the rim to compensate for an inconsistent jump shot.  He needs to be able to hit the open man.  Or he'll be stuck in tweener limbo like TJ.  We see it all the time.

[willie]

2 hours ago, thetorch said:

Has Hargrove been underplayed?

His defense comes and goes.  His interior defense is better than perimeter but he's too small to really be effective.  Ball handling is sub par, shooting is at best average.  He can dunk in the open floor.  Never developed any back to the basket game.  He's had favorable matchup before that he can exploit but on a good team a 6'3 tweener is at the back end of the rotation.  He certainly hasn't improved very much over 4 seasons.

Man we see a different game. I think his perimeter defense was very good. His interior defense very poor in that he was guarding players much larger. Why should he have a back to the basket game at his size . Brings great energy to the floor. The only point I agree on his his ball handling. He had moments when he was the best player on the floor but would get pulled out of the rotation because it was time. Yes he was underplayed. 

[thetorch]

1 hour ago, willie said:

Man we see a different game. I think his perimeter defense was very good. His interior defense very poor in that he was guarding players much larger. Why should he have a back to the basket game at his size . Brings great energy to the floor. The only point I agree on his his ball handling. He had moments when he was the best player on the floor but would get pulled out of the rotation because it was time. Yes he was underplayed. 

I guess so. 

Hargrove has never been the best player on the floor in his career. Not 2nd best or 3rd even. 

I hate dragging on players but there is a reason he's barely cracked the rotation the whole time he's been here. Saying he could be a difference maker if only he played more is ridiculous. 

Guys his size run him ragged on the perimeter. He plays too far off them and allows his man to get open jumpers. He can't move laterally on defense. For a guy who is long and can jump out of the gym he doesn't attack passing lanes or get weak side blocks.

If he was smart he would have put together a back to the basket game like Evans did and shoot jumpers out of the mid range when he plays the 4 against bigger slower defenders. His rebounding is poor considering again his leaping ability. Problem is he can't jump off two feet so his pcts on the O boards are poor. 

He's a fair 3 pt shooter and he can dunk and run. I don't really see him as an energy guy either, he doesn't make impacts defensively or on the boards when he is in the game.

Again I hate ripping on guys. Its not like he's been buried on Tourney teams for 4 years. We have had just decent teams and every year he is the 8th or 9th man. Nothing wrong with that. He's not a bad player. But not giving him big minutes has been the correct decision by Ford. The fact that he couldn't beat out a 1 legged Perkins for minutes says it all. Look at his analytics. They rank him last year right where he is 8th or 9th on a mediocre squad.

If he starts for us or plays 25+ minutes a game we are going to be bad. We've all been waiting on Hargrove to develop at least one part of his game to a high level. Its never happened. He's got a star personality with a fair to middling game on the court.

[willie]

Again we watched a different game. What was the game when he scored the first 8 points and was immediately subbed out? Ford’s offense never used him well. Made him stand in the corner but never gave him the ball to shoot volume threes. Never ran enough lobs. Totally disagree on guarding the perimeter. Too slow he was not. I do agree that his rebounding was subpar for a player with his jumping ability. Yes he is an energy guy. If nothing else he energized the crowd. 

[wgstl]

8 hours ago, thetorch said:

I guess so. 

Hargrove has never been the best player on the floor in his career. Not 2nd best or 3rd even. 

 

He was the best player on the court @memphis 

[VeniceMenace]

9 minutes ago, willie said:

Again we watched a different game. What was the game when he scored the first 8 points and was immediately subbed out? Ford’s offense never used him well. Made him stand in the corner but never gave him the ball to shoot volume threes. Never ran enough lobs. Totally disagree on guarding the perimeter. Too slow he was not. I do agree that his rebounding was subpar for a player with his jumping ability. Yes he is an energy guy. If nothing else he energized the crowd. 

Yes he has traditionally been one of the teams more accurate 3 point shooters…after this subpar season Ford confessed they need guys who are more athletic…well, Hargrove may be a tweeter & he’s not perfect (handles), but he’s definitely over-the-top athletic.

[HoosierPal]

32 minutes ago, VeniceMenace said:

Yes he has traditionally been one of the teams more accurate 3 point shooters…after this subpar season Ford confessed they need guys who are more athletic…well, Hargrove may be a tweeter & he’s not perfect (handles), but he’s definitely over-the-top athletic.

Hargrove lead the team in 2PT FG%  last season at 0.600.  His overall FG% was depressed to 48% (trailing only Okoro and Forrester) due to a 29% 3FG %.  Hargrove will be a valuable piece to this season's team.  Trolls can blindly disagree all they want.

[3star_recruit]

14 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

Hargrove lead the team in 2PT FG%  last season at 0.600.  His overall FG% was depressed to 48% (trailing only Okoro and Forrester) due to a 29% 3FG %.  Hargrove will be a valuable piece to this season's team.  Trolls can blindly disagree all they want.

Hargrove has always been a valuable member of this team.  He just hasn't been more valuable than the six or seven guys playing ahead of him.  His best chance to move up in the rotation is this year.  However, Dalger does a lot of the same things and is taller.

[SLU_Nick]

On 8/15/2023 at 4:24 PM, wgstl said:

Yep. We will be a worse defensive team. Offensive should be about the same 

I do not think the defense will be worse. 

[johnbj14]

10 hours ago, SLU_Nick said:

I do not think the defense will be worse. 

It’s kind of a mixed bag, but I think I land on the thought our defense will be slightly worse. We lost our two best defenders, Yuri and Francis. We also lost some guys who weren’t exactly fantastic on that end, so maybe a little addition by subtraction. Of the people who are stepping up in playing time/are new this year, I’m only really confident that Larry will be good on defense. 

[thetorch]

1 hour ago, wgstl said:

He was the best player on the court @memphis 

We were run out of the gym before the first half. He took 23 shots to get 20 points. Memphis took away Jimerson in that game. We were left with Collins and Hargrove. We lost by double digits. Also 3 or 4 Memphis players had better games than him.

[brianstl]

On 8/15/2023 at 11:55 AM, TheChosenOne said:

Right. I was just pointing out a technicality since the legislation has not gone into effect yet. Once the legislation goes into effect, an in-state commit can start earning money the day that they commit. Had this kid waited a couple of weeks to commit, he would have been able to start earning money the day he committed, but since it isn't the law yet, he has to wait two weeks or whatever that exact date is.

https://www.stltoday.com/sports/college/mizzou/missouri-wanted-to-push-the-envelope-on-nil-it-could-help-mizzou-land-star-recruits/article_c6a5d0a8-3c57-11ee-9523-5399bd1ef1dd.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

This article in today's Post, while focusing on the Mizzou impact, gives a good description of the Missouri law and it's impact right now.  If you read to the 25th paragraph you get this nugget dropped in:

Quote

Spurred by lobbying efforts in Columbia and from other in-state schools, including St. Louis University, the law reflects a more aggressive approach by Mizzou’s campus leaders.

 

[wgstl]

5 minutes ago, thetorch said:

We were run out of the gym before the first half. He took 23 shots to get 20 points. Memphis took away Jimerson in that game. We were left with Collins and Hargrove. We lost by double digits. Also 3 or 4 Memphis had better games than him.

I very much disagree, there were a few Memphis fans asking about him at the game because of how well he played. 

[thetorch]

1 hour ago, willie said:

Again we watched a different game. What was the game when he scored the first 8 points and was immediately subbed out? Ford’s offense never used him well. Made him stand in the corner but never gave him the ball to shoot volume threes. Never ran enough lobs. Totally disagree on guarding the perimeter. Too slow he was not. I do agree that his rebounding was subpar for a player with his jumping ability. Yes he is an energy guy. If nothing else he energized the crowd. 

You want your 7th best 3 point shooter taking volume 3s?

We could/should run more lobs but his success rate on them is not great.

Check out his steal % lowest on the team. Even our "bad" defenders are better than him.

We want to give a guy extra minutes because he energizes the crowd? 

[wgstl]

16 minutes ago, SLU_Nick said:

I do not think the defense will be worse. 

According to T-rank we lost 6 of our 7 best defensive players(Gibby being the one).  We added Dalger who is or at least was a very poor defender, Meadows who is very average, and Ezewiro is is slightly below average defensively plus a bunch of unknowns. Bbrad and Mike would have been roughly the 6-7th best defenders on the team last year. 

[thetorch]

41 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

Hargrove lead the team in 2PT FG%  last season at 0.600.  His overall FG% was depressed to 48% (trailing only Okoro and Forrester) due to a 29% 3FG %.  Hargrove will be a valuable piece to this season's team.  Trolls can blindly disagree all they want.

Pulling stats without giving proper context is a good way to be a troll.

Okoro and Forrester take contested twos.

Hargrove has many more uncontested twos.

Pull their numbers in non fast break situations and get back to me.

[VeniceMenace]

4 minutes ago, wgstl said:

According to T-rank we lost 6 of our 7 best defensive players(Gibby being the one).  We added Dalger who is or at least was a very poor defender, Meadows who is very average, and Ezewiro is is slightly below average defensively plus a bunch of unknowns. Bbrad and Mike would have been roughly the 6-7th best defenders on the team last year. 

 

4 minutes ago, thetorch said:

Pulling stats without giving proper context is a good way to be a troll.

Okoro and Forrester take contested twos.

Hargrove has many more uncontested twos.

Pull their numbers in non fast break situations and get back to me.

Don’t care about the situation, just care about the score.

[billiken_roy]

54 minutes ago, johnbj14 said:

It’s kind of a mixed bag, but I think I land on the thought our defense will be slightly worse. We lost our two best defenders, Yuri and Francis.

if that was our two best defenders last year and you think we will be even worse this year defensively overall............oh boy.   not good. 

[Compton]

10 hours ago, thetorch said:

he's barely cracked the rotation the whole time he's been here. Saying he could be a difference maker if only he played more is ridiculous.

Hargrove started 16 games last year, averaged 19.8mpg, more than Forrester or Parker. In 2021-22 he started 16 games, averaged 21.5mpg which was #6 on the team.

Saying that "barely cracked the rotation" is a misrepresentation.

[Compton]

39 minutes ago, thetorch said:

Hargrove has many more uncontested twos.

Pull their numbers in non fast break situations and get back to me.

Finding ways to take uncontested shots is a good thing. The guy is good at racing down the floor, getting behind his defender, and finding open space, which in turn tires and demoralizes defenders, pulls pressure off the ball and/or can make defenses pay for pressing. Plucking out metrics that represent a clear strength of his sounds like it wouldn't provide "proper context" for what he brings to the team.

[HoosierPal]

16 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

if that was our two best defenders last year and you think we will be even worse this year defensively overall............oh boy.   not good. 

Hey, I agree with you.  Okoro did demonstrate an ability to protect the rim via blocked shots, but he displayed no where near French Level defense.  And with all due respect to Mr. Collins, while he was 'voted' All D team, we all saw what Ace and others did to him.

As far as this year's D, to me it depends on who plays the minutes.  The majority of this board seemed to agree that Hughes was perhaps our best perimeter defender.  Perkins was limited on D last season with his knee issues.