Are the core four enough to build a team

[slu72]

Travis cites the fact that we only have 4 guys returning from last year and blending in the new parts will be a real test for him, the staff, and the players. We've all shared the same concerns looking ahead to what has the potential to be a great season. 

I'm of the belief if all concerned put team Blue first and check their egos at the front door, this blending can go smoothly. Looking at the "core four" I don't see where Goodwin, Bess, French, and Foreman have a me first attitude. They all played unselfishly last year and, out of necessity, played strong and long to grind out 17 w's. There was no indication any of these guys had a Malik attitude. 

The real key additions to these 4 are Isabell and Gordon. Isabell can score. However, it appears he played for a team that needed him to put up those big numbers. That doesn't seem to be the case on this team, save for some added punch from his perimeter game. 

Gordon strikes me as an unselfish player. He played second fiddle to Ramey and, in that role, his team won one or two(?) state championships. Ford praises his attitude to take coaching, so it would seem he'll blend in nicely. 

Bottom line, if all the new parts buy into the team Blue first culture, this team may come together sooner rather than later. We've all seen teams where the parts looked like a Ferrari, but for one reason or another they just couldn't work together. Here's hoping we don't have that problem. 

[NextYearBill]

yes.

[Billiken Rich]

1 hour ago, slu72 said:

Travis cites the fact that we only have 4 guys returning from last year and blending in the new parts will be a real test for him, the staff, and the players. We've all shared the same concerns looking ahead to what has the potential to be a great season. 

I'm of the belief if all concerned put team Blue first and check their egos at the front door, this blending can go smoothly. Looking at the "core four" I don't see where Goodwin, Bess, French, and Foreman have a me first attitude. They all played unselfishly last year and, out of necessity, played strong and long to grind out 17 w's. There was no indication any of these guys had a Malik attitude. 

The real key additions to these 4 are Isabell and Gordon. Isabell can score. However, it appears he played for a team that needed him to put up those big numbers. That doesn't seem to be the case on this team, save for some added punch from his perimeter game. 

Gordon strikes me as an unselfish player. He played second fiddle to Ramey and, in that role, his team won one or two(?) state championships. Ford praises his attitude to take coaching, so it would seem he'll blend in nicely. 

Bottom line, if all the new parts buy into the team Blue first culture, this team may come together sooner rather than later. We've all seen teams where the parts looked like a Ferrari, but for one reason or another they just couldn't work together. Here's hoping we don't have that problem. 

Well stated.  That is my concern as well.

[CBFan]

The two grad transfers should fit in well I look for Isabell to be similar to what Robertson did for Missouri last season.  I like that Isabell has the potential to get on a roll hitting 3 pointers that he could hit a bunch in a game.  Santos and Welmer has been practicing with the 4 returning players, I do not look at either as a new player.  The way I see it we have 8 experienced players that are good players and if some of the freshman are impact players and if this teams stays intact all season then a 4 seed in the big dance and a sweet 16 appearance.

[billikenfan05]

3 minutes ago, CBFan said:

The two grad transfers should fit in well I look for Isabell to be similar to what Robertson did for Missouri last season.  I like that Isabell has the potential to get on a roll hitting 3 pointers that he could hit a bunch in a game.  Santos and Welmer has been practicing with the 4 returning players, I do not look at either as a new player.  The way I see it we have 8 experienced players that are good players and if some of the freshman are impact players and if this teams stays intact all season then a 4 seed in the big dance and a sweet 16 appearance.

Who did for where?

[Coach314]

30 minutes ago, CBFan said:

The two grad transfers should fit in well I look for Isabell to be similar to what Robertson did for Missouri last season.  I like that Isabell has the potential to get on a roll hitting 3 pointers that he could hit a bunch in a game.  Santos and Welmer has been practicing with the 4 returning players, I do not look at either as a new player.  The way I see it we have 8 experienced players that are good players and if some of the freshman are impact players and if this teams stays intact all season then a 4 seed in the big dance and a sweet 16 appearance.

Will definitely be fun to see how Ford utilizes all the pieces he has.  Is the nonconference schedule out yet?

[billikenfan05]

8 minutes ago, Coach314 said:

Will definitely be fun to see how Ford utilizes all the pieces he has.  Is the nonconference schedule out yet?

Billikens.com. It’s literally on the front page 

[CBFan]

1 hour ago, billikenfan05 said:

Who did for where?

You made me look it up 05 use blue font next time, lol.

 

[CBFan]

39 minutes ago, Coach314 said:

Will definitely be fun to see how Ford utilizes all the pieces he has.  Is the nonconference schedule out yet?

Good hearing from you coach, as 05 stated it is on the front page.

I think overall the schedule has enough to improve our RPI if we win some of them.  I think SIU on the road would be a good win, we also have Seton Hall and Houston on the road.

Pittsburgh is on a neutral site but Pittsburgh is down.  We have Butler, Florida State and Oregon State at home and the rest are blood donors using a Michael Clayborn term.

[Coach314]

1 hour ago, CBFan said:

Good hearing from you coach, as 05 stated it is on the front page.

I think overall the schedule has enough to improve our RPI if we win some of them.  I think SIU on the road would be a good win, we also have Seton Hall and Houston on the road.

Pittsburgh is on a neutral site but Pittsburgh is down.  We have Butler, Florida State and Oregon State at home and the rest are blood donors using a Michael Clayborn term.

Gotcha.  Thanks.  Good to hear from you as well.

[Quality Is Job 1]

6 hours ago, slu72 said:

Travis cites the fact that we only have 4 guys returning from last year and blending in the new parts will be a real test for him, the staff, and the players. We've all shared the same concerns looking ahead to what has the potential to be a great season. 

I'm of the belief if all concerned put team Blue first and check their egos at the front door, this blending can go smoothly. Looking at the "core four" I don't see where Goodwin, Bess, French, and Foreman have a me first attitude. They all played unselfishly last year and, out of necessity, played strong and long to grind out 17 w's. There was no indication any of these guys had a Malik attitude. 

The real key additions to these 4 are Isabell and Gordon. Isabell can score. However, it appears he played for a team that needed him to put up those big numbers. That doesn't seem to be the case on this team, save for some added punch from his perimeter game. 

Gordon strikes me as an unselfish player. He played second fiddle to Ramey and, in that role, his team won one or two(?) state championships. Ford praises his attitude to take coaching, so it would seem he'll blend in nicely. 

Bottom line, if all the new parts buy into the team Blue first culture, this team may come together sooner rather than later. We've all seen teams where the parts looked like a Ferrari, but for one reason or another they just couldn't work together. Here's hoping we don't have that problem. 

72, I have little to argue with here, but I would like to point out a few things that I hope you, and the rest of us SLU fans, find encouraging.

Yes, there are "just" four returning players who played together on last year's team.  And one of them is not expected to start!  It is a question but not a concern.  It's more than a solid foundation to build on.

Then there are at least three guys not playing last year would very likely start for any of the NCAA Tournament teams SLU has had in the past 30 years: Santos, Gordon, and Isabell.  And one of them will not start!  Additionally, another newcomer would almost certainly be a rotation player on any of SLU's good teams: Thatch.  Furthermore, Welmer did start for SLU during the rebuild, and we're not expecting him to be much more than insurance, if he's healthy.  And then there's Wiley, who (if healthy) has been a role player in the Big Ten and add experience and toughness, at the very least.  So that's 10 guys to count on.  Never has SLU been this talented and deep; more experienced with regard to known cohesiveness, sure, but not as talented, athletic, and deep.  But there have been many teams with several new pieces who've gelled and gone far; this could be one of those teams -- should be.

Lastly, even at the end of the bench, there are three freshmen who we would ordinarily be talking about as potential impact players but we're hardly talking about them, at all.  Has SLU ever had 11th, 12th, and 13th guys that could match up with Jacobs, Thor, and Hankton?

Yeah, I think there's enough for us to get our hopes up.

[Box and Won]

2 hours ago, CBFan said:

Good hearing from you coach, as 05 stated it is on the front page.

I think overall the schedule has enough to improve our RPI if we win some of them.  I think SIU on the road would be a good win, we also have Seton Hall and Houston on the road.

Pittsburgh is on a neutral site but Pittsburgh is down.  We have Butler, Florida State and Oregon State at home and the rest are blood donors using a Michael Clayborn term.

Just FYI, Florida State is a neutral-site game in Sunrise, Florida.

[willie]

27 minutes ago, Quality Is Job 1 said:

72, I have little to argue with here, but I would like to point out a few things that I hope you, and the rest of us SLU fans, find encouraging.

Yes, there are "just" four returning players who played together on last year's team.  And one of them is not expected to start!  It is a question but not a concern.  It's more than a solid foundation to build on.

Then there are at least three guys not playing last year would very likely start for any of the NCAA Tournament teams SLU has had in the past 30 years: Santos, Gordon, and Isabell.  And one of them will not start!  Additionally, another newcomer would almost certainly be a rotation player on any of SLU's good teams: Thatch.  Furthermore, Welmer did start for SLU during the rebuild, and we're not expecting him to be much more than insurance, if he's healthy.  And then there's Wiley, who (if healthy) has been a role player in the Big Ten and add experience and toughness, at the very least.  So that's 10 guys to count on.  Never has SLU been this talented and deep; more experienced with regard to known cohesiveness, sure, but not as talented, athletic, and deep.  But there have been many teams with several new pieces who've gelled and gone far; this could be one of those teams -- should be.

Lastly, even at the end of the bench, there are three freshmen who we would ordinarily be talking about as potential impact players but we're hardly talking about them, at all.  Has SLU ever had 11th, 12th, and 13th guys that could match up with Jacobs, Thor, and Hankton?

Yeah, I think there's enough for us to get our hopes up.

I assume you are saying that Foreman is not expected to start. Not sure about that. I could see CAG and Santos coming off the bench . It's how does Ford want to balance  his rotation. Lot's of options. 

[NextYearBill]

4 minutes ago, willie said:

I assume you are saying that Foreman is not expected to start. Not sure about that. I could see CAG and Santos coming off the bench . It's how does Ford want to balance  his rotation. Lot's of options. 

LOL @ CAG coming off the bench 

[Quality Is Job 1]

6 minutes ago, willie said:

I assume you are saying that Foreman is not expected to start. Not sure about that. I could see CAG and Santos coming off the bench . It's how does Ford want to balance  his rotation. Lot's of options. 

When I say, "expected," I'm talking about fans' expectations, as we've discussed here ad nauseum.  Or perhaps just my own expectations.

But I don't think it changes my point much.  If Foreman starts -- and all four of the returning core -- then that means two out of three players who would have been a starter on any of SLU's prior best teams would be coming off of the bench.  Nice problem.

[willie]

I'm not saying I don't expect great things from CAG I just believe it's all about combinations. All 4 bigs will play big minutes. CAG will also play some 3. Yes it is a very nice problem. 

[almaman]

I can't imagine us being nearly as good as we MBMs all think we have good reason to be if Foreman is starting. Goodwin, Bess and French are all for sure starters in any scenario short of them being injured. Gordon, Isabell and Santos all are way ahead of him unless he has a supercharged Konklin summer.

[slu72]

I agree totally that the depth of this team is off the charts for just about any team. They do have 10-12 guys that can play. Not sure about Hankton or Thor at this point, but in Ford I trust. My point had nothing to do with talent. It's there. It's proven. For example, I think Wiley, if he's healthy, will surprise some folks.

The question is how to assemble all these parts into a powerful machine. Contrast this with some of Rick's teams. This team has more talent top to bottom. But Rick's guys were together for 3-4 years they knew his systems, tactics, and functions like it was part of their DNA. They proved this after he passed. They didn't need Crews to do squat except keep them in line off the court. Our current squad doesn't know each other that well, save for the core 4. They will be critical in getting everyone else on board with what Travis has drilled into them for two years. I expect Bess and Goodwin to be a big part of this from the get go. As an example, I don't Malik would play well with these guys; he's too much about me...me...me. If we can avoid that attitude, this transition will go a whole lot smoother. I believe this is what keeps Travis up at night, ie how quickly can I get these guys to play as a unit?

[HoosierPal]

1 hour ago, Quality Is Job 1 said:

Then there are at least three guys not playing last year would very likely start for any of the NCAA Tournament teams SLU has had in the past 30 years: Santos, Gordon, and Isabell. 

Interesting comment, and no right or wrong answers here.  Opinions are fun.  But who do you sit on our 93-94 and 94-95 tourney teams  H, Claggs, and Highmark......one has to sit to get Santos, Gordon and Isabell all in at the tip off. 

93-94, Claggett, Highmark, Waldman, Dobbs, and Pedersen started the NCAA games  (oooh, are you sitting Dobbs too?)

94-95, Claggett, Highmark, Waldman, Robinson and Harris started the NCAA games.

I'll grant that Pedersen and Robinson are two easy ones to sub out of these theoretical teams.  The others, hmmm.

[Quality Is Job 1]

18 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

Interesting comment, and no right or wrong answers here.  Opinions are fun.  But who do you sit on our 93-94 and 94-95 tourney teams  H, Claggs, and Highmark......one has to sit to get Santos, Gordon and Isabell all in at the tip off. 

93-94, Claggett, Highmark, Waldman, Dobbs, and Pedersen started the NCAA games  (oooh, are you sitting Dobbs too?)

94-95, Claggett, Highmark, Waldman, Robinson and Harris started the NCAA games.

I'll grant that Pedersen and Robinson are two easy ones to sub out of these theoretical teams.  The others, hmmm.

I was saying that any one of those guys would have started for those teams if they were on it, not all three of them, if they were on it.  Subbing three guys off the roster would change the team quite a bit, right?

[cheeseman]

59 minutes ago, NextYearBill said:

LOL @ CAG coming off the bench 

Starting is for High School.  Who starts is immaterial.  At the end of the game look at the minutes played.  If you are getting 20 -25 minutes I would say you are getting starting minutes.  It just does not matter when you get the minutes just that you get them.

[Cowboy]

7 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

Starting is for High School.  Who starts is immaterial.  At the end of the game look at the minutes played.  If you are getting 20 -25 minutes I would say you are getting starting minutes.  It just does not matter when you get the minutes just that you get them.

-Rick could get away with this, no slight at CFord but I hope he can too as we have what we all hope is a very deep roster - I think the kids want to hear their names (butchered) announced, get the spotlight, do some sort of dance at the end of the tunnel, go fist pump the refs and avoid the fire from behind the basket, i think to most players starting has some significance

[cheeseman]

27 minutes ago, Cowboy said:

-Rick could get away with this, no slight at CFord but I hope he can too as we have what we all hope is a very deep roster - I think the kids want to hear their names (butchered) announced, get the spotlight, do some sort of dance at the end of the tunnel, go fist pump the refs and avoid the fire from behind the basket, i think to most players starting has some significance

If a coach can not get away with this then every team can only have 5 players of starting quality and the rest must be role players.  This seems to be a rather negative view of the construction of a team.  Lots of teams have more than 5 players capable of starting.

[almaman]

47 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

Starting is for High School.  Who starts is immaterial.  At the end of the game look at the minutes played.  If you are getting 20 -25 minutes I would say you are getting starting minutes.  It just does not matter when you get the minutes just that you get them.

80% of those getting 20+ minutes started I'm gonna guess

[billiken_roy]

If starting isn't important, then why do we turn out the lights, blare music, shoot off fireworks to introduce the starters?   

Anyone that played high school or college sports remembers that starting indeed was important and a huge motivator.   No doubt playing is important.   But it is rare a player starting isn't also one of the top minutes guys as well.   They go hand in hand.