Fall 2017 allegations against unnamed players (aka Situation 2)

[Taj79]

Cowboy -- no, I don't "really" know the blue smoke shop guy is under "Billikenswin" so we're adding that to the "so much speculated" ledger.  When I've wanted to know identities, it has not been that hard.  But I admit I haven't bothered here with this one outside of certain whispers in ears.  I just hate the damn condescending, admonishing posts, that's all.

[Cowboy]

1 minute ago, Taj79 said:

Cowboy -- no, I don't "really" know the blue smoke shop guy is under "Billikenswin" so we're adding that to the "so much speculated" ledger.  When I've wanted to know identities, it has not been that hard.  But I admit I haven't bothered here with this one outside of certain whispers in ears.  I just hate the damn condescending, admonishing posts, that's all.

-I have read that response by Billikenswin several times and I must be missing something as I am not getting the same reaction but I will agree that SLU's handling of the entire S2 has been bungled beyond belief, I don't think we really ask for much as a fan base, but the U showed it couldn't clear a very low bar with S2

-I thought one thing they could have done is take out an ad in the sports section the day after the horrible article by Ortiz to show what he got wrong about JGood, but on further review the status of the circumstances with the other 3 (former) players may have made that trickier than I know, but to do or say nothing  doesn't seem the correct move

[Billy Ken]

1 hour ago, billiken_roy said:

the more i think about our chairman's response to my post, the hotter i get.   you and the rest of the bot high rollers think that because your write a huge check likely on a regular basis you can play the arrogant "i know but you dont so shut up" roll.   well while my meager check might not even be close to your's the fact is mine and the majority of posters on this board, write more of their blood funds to help supply their escape, billiken basketball than you do.   i would bet my check makes writing tuition checks for my kids, paying the utility bills, putting gas in my car to get to my 8-5 job a hell of a lot more challenging than your's does.   fans like me and taj and brian, bleed blue and we are the real billiken fans that fill the damn seats, buy the beers, sing the national anthem every game, etc.   you and your cronies miss more games and take more forgranted than we ever do.   we need a place like billikens.com to try to help each other with our passion and try to know what is going on because god knows stu isnt getting the real story from any of the bot, krafty, pesty or stormy.  

you and the bot had the chance to stop this mess, you did nothing and say nothing.  and we the real fandom are forced to speculate and wish and complain because we have nothing else to base this whole trainwreck on.   but hey joe, thats all we deserve right.   we should just "shut up, and write checks and come to the games"  that's all we are apparently entitled to.   meanwhile thousands of fans like me, taj and brian, are frozen out and hurting from the whole unfair event.   you let our billikens bleed when they shouldnt have.   meanwhile, chris may and travis ford have to paint on fake smiles and be quiet and spout the company line "no comment" when these dying fans are begging for what's going on.   and most wrong, four young men are forever marked wrongly with the speculation you allowed to happen.   they will forever be more known for what didnt happen but you allowed to be thrown at them.   

i hope you and the rest of the bot are real proud of yourselves.  

now we wait for your full report on what happened. starting prior to the season at the cheerleaders appartment to now.   please tell us the whole assorted story and  how wrong we got it and how the four players deserved to wear the SA on their chest for the rest of their lives and why.   

I can't imagine Mike Shanahan posting on the board like this guy. Never. Hard to take this guy seriously. If you haven't figured out yet why slu is where it is, look no further than its leadership. Case in point. Very good post Roy, well said.

[slufan13]

Expelled, suspended, whatever. Either way he isn't enrolled in school. It's a good thing we have Chaifetz on our board of trustees. If not we'd be f.ucked. 

 

[majerus mojo]

3 hours ago, Cowboy said:

-do we KNOW who Billikenswin is or is this speculation? and I'm not sure I want to know, Steve has established this forum and his rules allow posters to remain unidentified if they choose

 

 

2 hours ago, Taj79 said:

Cowboy -- no, I don't "really" know the blue smoke shop guy is under "Billikenswin" so we're adding that to the "so much speculated" ledger.  When I've wanted to know identities, it has not been that hard.  But I admit I haven't bothered here with this one outside of certain whispers in ears.  I just hate the damn condescending, admonishing posts, that's all.

hilarious post history when you just read the first line or so (@Billikenswin)

[Spoon-Balls]

1 hour ago, slufan13 said:

 It's a good thing we have Chaifetz on our board of trustees. If not we'd be f.ucked. 

This is what I've been saying this entire cluster*ck of a season now. The rest of the Board has proven their "true worth" with regards to our basketball program as they all remained silent throughout this ordeal. Chaifetz at least stepped up as the savior to ensure that everything didn't crash and burn, donating $15 million to appease our spineless president and ensure Goodwin didn't get railroaded by the University. 

I caught some flack from Billikenswin a few weeks ago for reiterating this, but I'll double down on my current sentiments. The only person that matters to me on the SLU BoT at this point is Richard Chaifetz. I don't care if the rest of the board members "go to all the games" or write some checks to the program, it's clear that a number of them have the same condescending attitude as Billikenswin when it comes to the fanbase. 

[SLU_Lax]

2 hours ago, majerus mojo said:

 

hilarious post history when you just read the first line or so (@Billikenswin)

He does dispute a whole lot of information without offering correct information or details on what is "wrong" or "false".  I appreciate his contributions and trust he is a member of the board, but for someone that claims to have so much knowledge he does not offer many tangible "facts" in any of his posts.

[Quality Is Job 1]

17 minutes ago, SLU_Lax said:

He does dispute a whole lot of information without offering correct information or details on what is "wrong" or "false".  I appreciate his contributions and trust he is a member of the board, but for someone that claims to have so much knowledge he does not offer many tangible "facts" in any of his posts.

Damage control.  Perhaps he (and they) just want to stick a band-aid on it, when surgery is necessary.

[majerus mojo]

https://theathletic.com/264135/2018/03/07/title-ix-probes-pose-conflicts-of-interest-but-coaches-and-athletic-department-officials-must-stand-aside/

Article (SLU reference in bold):

In October, the University of Minnesota’s Office of Equal Opportunity and Affirmative Action (EOAA) began an investigation into Reggie Lynch, a starting senior forward on the Golden Gophers’ basketball team. Two women had come forward claiming that Lynch had sexually assaulted them in separate incidents more than a year earlier. This was not the first time Lynch had been investigated for sexual misconduct. In May 2016, a third woman made the same accusation, but law enforcement declined to pursue the case, citing a lack of evidence.

Despite three accusations from three women, Lynch continued to play while the EOAA conducted interviews and convened a panel to decide Lynch’s responsibility. He appeared in the team’s first 16 games, helping Minnesota to a 13-3 start. In January, the EOAA ruled that Lynch was responsible for the two assaults and banned him from campus until August 2020, or long after his basketball eligibility will expire.

On Jan. 5, Minnesota athletic director Mark Coyle and men’s basketball coach Richard Pitino held a press conference to announce the EOAA decision. Citing privacy laws, Coyle refrained from answering direct questions about Lynch, but explained that as athletic director he has the authority, with input from his coaches to decide whether an athlete should be suspended while under investigation.

That Minnesota allowed Lynch to play despite the multiple accusations raised questions about whether coaches and athletic department officials should have so much say over these decisions, which is common at universities across the country, is the proper one. “Regardless of what anyone believes, there’s an inherent conflict of interest, even if things are handled in a textbook way,” Oklahoma athletic director Joe Castiglione said.

That conflict of interest has been apparent at numerous schools in recent years. Cases at Oregon, Michigan State and elsewhere have drawn scrutiny, as reports have shown that administrators and coaches allowed players under investigation for sexual assault to keep competing.

There are clear guidelines for how schools should handle harassment and sexual assault allegations. Title IX, originally crafted in 1972 as a mechanism for ensuring equal participation opportunities for women in athletics, was amended in 2011 by the Department of Education to ensure that “the sexual harassment of students, including sexual violence, interferes with students’ rights to receive an education free from discrimination and, in the case of sexual violence, is a crime.’’ With the threat of losing federal funding, colleges and universities have scrambled to hire full-time Title IX coordinators, establishing detailed policies to handle complaints and training and educating faculty and staff in their duties as mandatory reporters. Everyone, coaches included, is told that any accusations of sexual assault must be forwarded to and investigated by the Title IX office.

What to do while the Title IX office is investigating a student-athlete is, however, often unspecified, left to be determined by an athletic director whose mandate includes building winning programs. Figuring out how to manage that part of the process is the challenge that schools face across the country, with no clear path on how to proceed. “No process is perfect, but at the end of the day the university process is pretty locked up,’’ said Abby Honold, a victims advocate in Minnesota. “It’s when athletics gets involved, that’s when it’s an issue.’’Most schools have clear policies that call for suspending an athlete if he or she is charged with a crime. (For example, three UCLA basketball players were suspended for the season after being charged with shoplifting in China last November.) But if an allegation is merely under investigation by the Title IX office, which runs independently of the police and determines responsibility but not necessarily guilt, there is no such clarity.

“You’ve got a kid standing in front of you saying, ‘Coach, I didn’t do it,’’ said Gonzaga basketball coach Mark Few, speaking hypothetically. “This is a kid you’ve known for years, a kid you recruited, never been in trouble before. What are you supposed to do? You’ve got to decide, do I play him or not? What’s the right answer?”’

To that, Todd Mesibov, Duke’s assistant athletic director for compliance, replies: “There are no easy answers.’’ At Duke, the athletic department seeks guidance and recommendations from its Title IX office or the dean of students, but an investigation itself does not automatically result in immediate suspension. Said Mesibov, “Sometimes they’ve said, ‘This is appropriate,’ and sometimes they’ve said, ‘It’s up to you.’’’

As these cases have become more frequent in recent years, and as the #Metoo movement has brought greater awareness to sexual harassment and assault, more schools are being scrutinized for the choices they’ve made. Michigan State basketball coach Tom Izzo is under fire for allowing Adreian Payne and Keith Appling to compete while they were being investigated in 2008. (Neither player was charged with a crime or ever found responsible for wrongdoing by the school.) Oregon coach Dana Altman has faced condemnation for allowing four of his athletes on different occasions to play despite being under investigation. (Three were later found responsible by the school for sexual assault and expelled. The fourth player, under investigation for an incident at a college in a different state, transferred from Oregon.)

More recently, schools have become more aggressive about acting early. Missouri suspended point guard 

Terrence Phillips in January on the basis of a single accusation. When the Title IX investigation turned up three more accusers, Phillips was dismissed from the team. (Phillips maintains his innocence, telling The Kansas City Star, “I intend to be cleared from the accusations. People who know me know this isn’t me.”)

Likewise, Saint Louis University began a Title IX investigation into four members of its basketball team in September. Though no one was officially named as the focus of the probe, Adonys Henriquez, Ty Graves and Jermaine Bishop did not play a game this season. They initially practiced with the team during the investigation but all three are no longer at the university. A lawyer representing those three players told the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, “They did nothing wrong and are contemplating their appellate rights as well as future litigation.’’ In February, a fourth player, Jordan Goodwin, who had been allowed to play this season, was suspended for the rest of the season and withdrew from school, though he will be permitted to re-enroll in May. He said in a statement: “I take responsibility for a violation of university policy.”

At first blush, the choice seems clear: suspend a player pending investigation and reinstate him if he’s cleared. But is that fair to those who may be falsely accused?

Consider the case of Dez Wells, who in 2012 was investigated for sexual assault while he was a member of Xavier’s basketball team. Wells claimed the sex was consensual, and though a hospital report showed no signs of trauma to the victim and the Hamilton County prosecutor declined to charge Wells, the school’s Conduct Board, which reviews the findings of Title IX investigations, expelled him. The prosecutor later publicly called Xavier’s process for handling the case “seriously flawed’’ and urged the university to reconsider its decision. Wells finished his career at Maryland, but he later sued Xavier for wrongful expulsion. The sides settled out of court.

“These cases are complicated, and they’re complicated because of how raw they are,’’ Peter Ginsberg, Wells’ attorney, said. “Every time that kid stepped to the free-throw line (at Maryland), he heard, ‘No means no.’ That will never leave him.’’

At Duke, junior soccer player Ciaran McKenna was recently deemed responsible by the university’s Office of Student Conduct panel for violating the school’s sexual misconduct policy. McKenna (who has proclaimed his innocence and was never charged by police), sued the school, alleging it had mishandled the process. Last month, a Superior Court judge permanently barred Duke from suspending McKenna.

“It’s really difficult,’’ said Mesibov. “You’re balancing the rights and privileges of an individual who is accused, but as yet has not been found to have done anything wrong, versus the rights of the accused and the health and safety of all of our students.’’

According to a study published in 2009 by the National Center for the Prosecution of Violence Against Women, only seven percent of all cases of sexual assault involve false accusations, yet 90 percent of on-campus assaults involve a perpetrator the victim knows. “It’s a very difficult decision, and one that has to be made with both an eye on doing what’s right, and understanding the rights of the individual involved,’’ said Castiglione, who faced scrutiny for allowing football player Joe Mixon (now with the Cincinnati Bengals) to remain in school (and serve a one-year suspension) despite a highly publicized incident in which Mixon punched a woman in the face. (Mixon agreed to a plea deal to do community service and seek counseling.)

Unlike athletic directors and coaches, Title IX coordinators are trained to examine these cases. Early on, when the Department of Education first amended the definition of Title IX, schools plugged people into the positions in desperation, rather than making qualified hires. But with the responsibilities of the position growing, and the consequences of making decisions dire, schools are now hiring people who have legal or law-enforcement backgrounds.

Rebecca Veidlinger is a former sex crimes prosecutor who works as a consultant and trains Title IX coordinators. She conducts departmental audits, works with coordinators on their interviewing protocol and ensures that universities are in compliance with the federal law. “It’s a perfectly fair expectation that they have adequate training,’’ Veidlinger said. “But just by bringing me in, it proves they want to do this right.’’

Peter Lake, a former Title IX coordinator at Stetson University, agrees. He admits the job description of a Title IX coordinator is “somewhat aspirational,’’ charging one office with monitoring an entire university and everything from athletics to employment to sabbaticals and leave time. Lake also sees the holes that need to be closed, particularly in athletics. While he’s happy with the progress that’s been made — “It used to be you took these things to coach and only to coach,” he said. “Those days are gone.’’ — he believes coaches and athletic directors are still too involved. “You have to have your strategy lined up ahead of time,’’ he said. “Have a policy. Be consistent with it. You’re going to have issues with your athletes. The problem comes when you’re trying to make the decision in the moment.’’

All the more reason for coaches and athletic administrators to stay out of the way. That is for the coaches’ benefit as well as their players’. In 2003, when Billy Hahn was the men’s basketball coach at LaSalle, he learned that a women’s basketball player at the school had told her coach, John Miller, that she was raped by a player on Hahn’s team. (This was before Title IX changes that would have required Hahn and Miller to report that information.) Hahn maintains that the woman said she didn’t want to press charges, and Miller later told the Baltimore Sun that the player “did not want any of this to become public.” So, Hahn and Miller urged her to seek counseling. Later, after two of Hahn’s other players were accused of rape by a different woman — they were acquitted at trial — the female basketball player told police that Hahn and Miller had discouraged her from going to law enforcement. Both Hahn and Miller were placed on leave and then resigned.

Hahn never got another head-coaching job. He was out of work for three years, too radioactive to hire even as an assistant. Bob Huggins eventually hired him at West Virginia. Hahn retired at the end of last season and now spends time speaking to teams. Much of his talk is about respecting the game, but he includes his own experience at La Salle to send a very pointed — and impactful — message. “As soon as you get some sort of s— in your bag, don’t hold on to it,’’ he said. “You pass that s—– bag to your administrator and make sure they get it to someone who is responsible. Don’t put yourself in the situation I did, where you think you’re doing the right thing because I’ll tell you, what happened at La Salle will live with me forever. When I’m gone and they throw the shovel of dirt on top of me, they might talk about all of the good things I’ve done. But they’re always going to talk about what happened at La Salle.’’Hahn’s message has particular resonance in today’s climate. And yet, given the pressure that coaches and athletic directors face to produce winning programs, it most likely will require a nationwide mandate to carve them out of the process. But who could issue such a directive?

The NCAA would seem the logical answer, but it has been reluctant to intercede. In 2016, it issued a resolution from its executive committee compelling membership to comply with campus authorities and offer the proper education and sexual violence protection. That sounds significant and beneficial, except federal law largely has taken care of that.

It’s the gray area that needs to be cleaned up, and the NCAA has yet to map out a path forward in that regard. “The credibility of amateur athletics, Olympic athletics, all of it is on the table,’’ Lake said. “Accountability is on the table. Who should be watching this? Who should go first? Is it federal? Is it athletics? Is it the NCAA? Those questions are still forming and no one has the answers yet, but someone has to figure it out.’’

Minnesota is one of many schools that has been trying to do just that. In August 2017, the university invited an outside firm to evaluate its Title IX policies. Among the group’s recommendations: to develop a more defined suspension process for athletes, and consider limiting the involvement of coaches and athletic administrators in the decision-making in cases that 

involve sexual misconduct. Further, the Title IX office will provide athletic officials information early in an investigation that could be informative in determining whether that player should or should not be suspended.

That policy went into effect in January, months after the Reggie Lynch investigation had been launched, so it was not applicable to his case. But given the intense criticism Minnesota and other schools have faced, it would behoove every university to establish policies that remove people from making these decisions who have a conflict of interest.

It won’t be easy adopting a standard of protocols that will guide these decisions, but it is in everyone’s interest to move smartly and quickly on achieving that goal. “If something happens, my guys know what my answer will be, ‘I’m sorry. It’s out of my hands. It goes to Title IX,’ ” Few said. “It’s meting out the justice, that’s the real problem.’’

[Spoon-Balls]

“These cases are complicated, and they’re complicated because of how raw they are,’’ Peter Ginsberg, Wells’ attorney, said. “Every time that kid stepped to the free-throw line (at Maryland), he heard, ‘No means no.’ That will never leave him.’’

 

The most infuriating thing about all of this is that the players all have to live with this the rest of their lives, while the three women get off Scot-free for false accusations of rape and assault. Goodwin will probably have to deal with all of the heckling but you can imagine how much of an emotional toll it can take when you're constantly labeled as a sexual predator.  Sickening. Even if the recent letter that was signed by nearly 200 prominent law officials has any sort of impact on the current Title IX setup, it will take years to undo the mess that's been created by these SJW's whose sole purpose is to "take down the patriarchy" even if it means that innocent men must go down with it. 

[SLU_Lax]

His parents had to spend money they didn’t have to hire lawyers. He then had to publicly admit guilt of breaking University policies and is certainly limited in how much he can speak out. It will be tough for him to sue and collect damages. JGood may live an amazing life complete with NBA success and establishing himself as quite the philanthropist, but he will always be prominently stained by the Title IX office. 

The other 3 at least have a chance to sue and to be made financially whole. 

[dennis_w]

Did i miss where bishop ended up? could he be coming back to Slu?

[moytoy12]

1 hour ago, dennis_w said:

Did i miss where bishop ended up? could he be coming back to Slu?

I strongly suspect Bishop is gone forever (I mean, a 2 year suspension), but the relative silence re: JB throughout this whole ordeal has been strange. 

[Old guy]

Keeping silence allows Bishop to have freedom in choosing which action to take, if he decides to take any action. It also allows him to come back after two years if that is what he decides to do. Bishop has a number of options ahead of him. I find his silence a very reasonable way to handle whatever he has to handle without giving up on any available options.

[JMM28]

9 minutes ago, Old guy said:

Keeping silence allows Bishop to have freedom in choosing which action to take, if he decides to take any action. It also allows him to come back after two years if that is what he decides to do. Bishop has a number of options ahead of him. I find his silence a very reasonable way to handle whatever he has to handle without giving up on any available options.

so its 50/50?

[slufan13]

If Ford can fill Bishop's scholarship he should whether Bishop wants to come back or not.

[Pistol]

Two questions re: Bishop -

1. How long is his suspension? Do we know whether it's a year and a half or two years? I'm assuming the latter, but I'm not sure we ever saw it specified how long each specific player was getting.

2. How much eligibility would he have if he returned? Look at his career, assuming a two-year suspension:

2015-2016: Freshman, played full season.

2016-2017: Sophomore, played 9 games, granted medical redshirt waiver.

2017-2018: Sophomore, suspended full season.

2018-2019: ?, suspended.

2019-2020: ?, suspended.

2020-2021: ???

So Bishop would have finished his career here in spring 2020, having played four seasons of eligibility in five years. Some are saying that he might want to return, but if he really is suspended two full seasons, that puts him back in uniform in fall 2020, when he would essentially be a sixth-year senior. NCAA rules say you have six years to complete four years of eligibility, so would he be considered a senior that year no matter what? Can he get additional waivers for not playing? If he transferred, would he still have to sit out the 2018-2019 season, or could he get a waiver because of the medical redshirt?

His options probably aren't the most attractive here, but my point is to illustrate that it makes very little sense to come back to SLU in fall 2020 (assuming he'd be readmitted, then accepted back by the coaching staff, and assuming that it's even the same staff at that point). And SLU shouldn't keep a scholarship tied up for him. Both parties need to go their separate ways now.

[Old guy]

I agree Pistol, but from Bishop's point of view there may be nothing to be gained from throwing away a possible option that may be available to him. He needs to do what is best for himself and I am sure he will one way or the other. 

[dennis_w]

Is there any possibility that this cools off and his suspension is shortened like jg?

[moytoy12]

2 hours ago, Old guy said:

Keeping silence allows Bishop to have freedom in choosing which action to take, if he decides to take any action. It also allows him to come back after two years if that is what he decides to do. Bishop has a number of options ahead of him. I find his silence a very reasonable way to handle whatever he has to handle without giving up on any available options.

I’m not just talking about JB’s silence, but any follow-up from reporters about JB’s future.  You figure someone would have asked JB what he’s going to do.  Now, if JB said “no comment” I get it.  But the fact that basically nothing outside the purported punishment has been stated is a little odd to me. 

[slufan13]

Frank did say that everyone else's punishment was upheld and that they wouldn't play for SLU again right? Or am I making that up? I don't know what's true anymore. Maybe Bishop is taking legal action to be immediately reinstated. 

[slu72]

Is he still on campus?

[slu72]

1 minute ago, slu72 said:

Is he still on campus?

Forget I asked. I just saw Stu's twitter from Feb 13.

[wgstl]

33 minutes ago, slufan13 said:

Frank did say that everyone else's punishment was upheld and that they wouldn't play for SLU again right? Or am I making that up? I don't know what's true anymore. Maybe Bishop is taking legal action to be immediately reinstated. 

I wonder if he would argue that he already sat out for one of the years?

[Quality Is Job 1]

4 minutes ago, wgstl said:

I wonder if he would argue that he already sat out for one of the years?

The sanctions apply to school (academics), not athletic participation.  He's got four semesters in which he's not allowed on campus.  This spring semester is the first of the four.