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2 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

Yes, Thatch is starting, but no, his 3's not falling is a real problem.  Your production stats miss the real point.  Our offense will NOT click if we have too many guys whose perimeter shots don't fall:   Goodwin and French are not the answer as far as perimeter shooting is concerned and if Thatch doesn't have his 3's fall (or even his mid-range shots fall as 3 Star suggests), then we will have trouble - and alot of it.  Keep in mind, most of Thatch's shots were layups and 5 footers following hard work, hustle and offensive rebounding -- same as Goodwin and French.   We cannot have 3 such grinders, and then throw in more guys who don't shoot -- Bell, Diarra, Yuri... IMO, we need 2 shooters at all times.

The reason these 3 guys had the success they did, was because:  1) FGCU also wanted to run and not pack the lane; and 2) Jimerson knocked down 3 and Weaver knocked down his 2 and then Perkins made shots, Yuri even hit 1 and then Jacobs made 2 during the final garbage minutes.

Who starts is about setting the tone for the game. At the end of the day Thatch and Jimerson may play close to the same amount of minutes.

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34 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

Yes, Thatch is starting, but no, his 3's not falling is a real problem.  Your production stats miss the real point.  Our offense will NOT click if we have too many guys whose perimeter shots don't fall:   Goodwin and French are not the answer as far as perimeter shooting is concerned and if Thatch doesn't have his 3's fall (or even his mid-range shots fall as 3 Star suggests), then we will have trouble - and alot of it.  Keep in mind, most of Thatch's shots were layups and 5 footers following hard work, hustle and offensive rebounding -- same as Goodwin and French.   We cannot have 3 such grinders, and then throw in more guys who don't shoot -- Bell, Diarra, Yuri... IMO, we need 2 shooters at all times.

The reason these 3 guys had the success they did, was because:  1) FGCU also wanted to run and not pack the lane; and 2) Jimerson knocked down 3 and Weaver knocked down his 2 and then Perkins made shots, Yuri even hit 1 and then Jacobs made 2 during the final garbage minutes.

If i follow your last 2 posts:  Jimerson starting is an issue because he's the only shooter. Yet, Thatch starting is a potential problem because in your opinion he can't hit outside shots.  

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26 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

Who starts is about setting the tone for the game. At the end of the day Thatch and Jimerson may play close to the same amount of minutes.

Yup.

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Thatch, Goodwin, and French are all starting every game unless injured.

Bell and Jacobs are starting because they are close to being dialed in, but They will develop best by playing in the first unit. Ford wants to maximize their floor time while minimizing overexposure.

Bell, as I noted, is a foul machine on switches and being a half step late. Even with Ford maxing his time in the easy section of the season, he won’t go much past his 13 mpg unless French is in major foul trouble. His conditioning is hidden, as he exerts about 20% of the effort that CAG did when he posted up last year.

Jacobs still needs work, but his confidence level is way above last year. As these two go, so goes our chances in the post season.

Collins, Weaver, and Jacobs need to get the majority of ball handling in the backcourt, as it frees Goodwin up to be the dominant point forward he is. Broy, I hope you now can see that Collins, when  

he is on the court, is our best point guard of the present and the future.

With Ford’s second team rotation, it forces Collins and/or Weaver to be the man on point. We want them to have the “i can handle this” swagger that being the dominant on the ball pg develops.

For now, Hargrove sits. Only so many development projects can occur in real time, but TJ is busting ass in practice, and his time will come before too long. 
Ford will probably continue his full two team deep rotation for all projected winnable games, getting the development the players need, and the data tendencies the staff needs. He’ll continue to keep French and Goodwin on the bench at times, because the team needs to learn how to hold or build leads if their big two are both in foul trouble.

This is a good start, as the point guard situation has solidified already, the 3 pt shooting will be stout for a little less than 40% of the games projected, which is also is good. Bell will give us a low teens fill time, and KC will continue his stretch four mutation.

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30 minutes ago, Sheltiedave said:

Thatch, Goodwin, and French are all starting every game unless injured.

Bell and Jacobs are starting because they are close to being dialed in, but They will develop best by playing in the first unit. Ford wants to maximize their floor time while minimizing overexposure.

Bell, as I noted, is a foul machine on switches and being a half step late. Even with Ford maxing his time in the easy section of the season, he won’t go much past his 13 mpg unless French is in major foul trouble. His conditioning is hidden, as he exerts about 20% of the effort that CAG did when he posted up last year.

Jacobs still needs work, but his confidence level is way above last year. As these two go, so goes our chances in the post season.

Collins, Weaver, and Jacobs need to get the majority of ball handling in the backcourt, as it frees Goodwin up to be the dominant point forward he is. Broy, I hope you now can see that Collins, when  

he is on the court, is our best point guard of the present and the future.

With Ford’s second team rotation, it forces Collins and/or Weaver to be the man on point. We want them to have the “i can handle this” swagger that being the dominant on the ball pg develops.

For now, Hargrove sits. Only so many development projects can occur in real time, but TJ is busting ass in practice, and his time will come before too long. 
Ford will probably continue his full two team deep rotation for all projected winnable games, getting the development the players need, and the data tendencies the staff needs. He’ll continue to keep French and Goodwin on the bench at times, because the team needs to learn how to hold or build leads if their big two are both in foul trouble.

This is a good start, as the point guard situation has solidified already, the 3 pt shooting will be stout for a little less than 40% of the games projected, which is also is good. Bell will give us a low teens fill time, and KC will continue his stretch four mutation.

Perkins 🤔

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13 minutes ago, Coach314 said:

Perkins 🤔

If Perkins gets 8-10 pts a game and plays solid D, we are in pretty good shape. He will have some games where he goes off and could be the leading scorer. 

he is a real luxury to have on the team. Ford is close to the thug ball/ beautiful ball/pressure d clampdown he wants to roll out to jar teams off the tracks, and Perkins fits well in the beatiful ball as a scoring option, and he is serviceable as a rotation g/f on the   Pressure d. He will get time, and when he catches fire, plenty of time. His stretch four time, if on the flip side of the pressure d, makes him the other mutant S4 besides KC.

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1 hour ago, moytoy12 said:

If i follow your last 2 posts:  Jimerson starting is an issue because he's the only shooter. Yet, Thatch starting is a potential problem because in your opinion he can't hit outside shots.  

No.   Not what I said.  Where did I ever say that Thatch can't hit outside shots?  Answer:  I didn't.  You made that up.

Read above -- "Thatch is starting..." and playing b/c no one else can come close to playing the defense he does, along with being a good rebounder and making short shots.   Even if his 3's don't drop, we are still probably better with him than without him.   But if our team is to click, then either he needs have his 3's drop (or as 3 Star suggests) have his mid-range jumper drop or we need the other 2 non-Big 3 Guys- to step up and keep the defenses honest by hitting perimeter shots.   

Now, if Jimerson's keeps dropping his 3's and plays a a defense which can rival that of Thatch and if Thatch's 3's do not drop, then I would sit Thatch and play Jimerson.   And for all the Jacobs' fans, same thing.  If Jacobs' 3 pointers drop and his defense comes close to that of Thatch and Thatch's 3's do not drop,  then I would sit Thatch.   Right now, I don't see Thatch sitting - but if we want to be good, then Thatch or the person in his position needs to be able to keep defenses honest - be a perimeter threat. Why would I sit Thatch is these unlikely scenarios?   Because Goodwin and French are not perimeter players, and if we are also to play Bell, Diarra, Hankton and Yuri (who are not 3 point shooters) then Goodwin and French will not be given proper space.  Shooting effectively from the perimeter is key - and I just don't think we have the personnel to get by with only 1.  Instead, I believe we are best to have 2 shooters at all times.  

 

 

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2 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

Who starts is about setting the tone for the game. At the end of the day Thatch and Jimerson may play close to the same amount of minutes.

Totally agree with you about the tone of the game - and others... starting is for high school.... it's more about minutes than starting....team concept vs. individual...  its more about minutes at the end of the game rather than the start of the game.... but then why do we make such a fuss turning off the lights, playing the music, the spotlights and announce the names of only our starters?   Why not do introductions of our 5 best players?  of our 5 most experienced players?  Is there a rule which says if you call out a person's name pre-game that he must start?

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6 hours ago, Aquinas said:

When it comes to the starting lineup.  At this point i would like to see:
Bell, at the 5, We are going to need him this year, to allow French to play the 4 against bigger and better teams.  It also helps keep French out of early foul trouble .
French at the 4.  He is our most dominant player and forces teams to double him.
Goodwin, he is on everybodies starting lineup.
Jimmmerson, He is probably our best sniper and his defence is pretty good.  We need a guy to stretch the floor.
Collins, Put me in the Yurimania camp.  I was super impressed with his team management and comfort on the floor.

This lineup puts pressure on the other teams defence.  They have to double French, and can't afford to lose track of Jimmmerson on the perimeter.  That opens things up for Goodwin and Collins.  Once things start clicking for Bell, he will also be open for some easy layups, when they double French. 

OK, I know that is 3 starting with 3 freshmen on the floor and Thatch isn't in this lineup.
I think Fred would be better coming off of the bench.  Untill he starts hitting his 3s at a better rate, it makes it hard to start him.  I think for things to click at this part of the season, we need at least 2 of our 3 returners on the floor all of the time.  So if French or Goodwin come out, we need Thatch on the floor.

Ford now also has the ability to put out diffent starting lineups and rotations based on the opponents streanths and weaknesses.  There will be games where he may want Thatch on the floor to shut down big scorer.   Or a small team where French can dominate at the 5, Bell will sit more.   We have not had this kind of flexibility in a long time. 


 

If there was one driving factor to our dominance of the first half on Wednesday it was the press and our relentless defense. 

Thatch would start anyways, but so long as coach wants to set a tone of havoc and harassment Thatch will definitely start.

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Didn't know where to put this, but just saw that James Wiseman, star freshman center for Memphis, has been ruled ineligible. Memphis is a top 15 team and Wiseman is projected as a top 1-3 pick in the 2020 draft, so this is certainly a meaningful ruling.

Wiseman in his one game against South Carolina State had 28 points, 11 rebounds, and 3 blocks in 22 minutes.

Today will be remembered as the day that two potential No. 1 picks in different sports, Chase Young and James Wiseman, were found ineligible by the NCAA. And another searing reminder why NCAA rules needs to evolve, quickly.

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54 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

No.   Not what I said.  Where did I ever say that Thatch can't hit outside shots?  Answer:  I didn't.  You made that up.

Read above -- "Thatch is starting..." and playing b/c no one else can come close to playing the defense he does, along with being a good rebounder and making short shots.   Even if his 3's don't drop, we are still probably better with him than without him.   But if our team is to click, then either he needs have his 3's drop (or as 3 Star suggests) have his mid-range jumper drop or we need the other 2 non-Big 3 Guys- to step up and keep the defenses honest by hitting perimeter shots.   

Now, if Jimerson's keeps dropping his 3's and plays a a defense which can rival that of Thatch and if Thatch's 3's do not drop, then I would sit Thatch and play Jimerson.   And for all the Jacobs' fans, same thing.  If Jacobs' 3 pointers drop and his defense comes close to that of Thatch and Thatch's 3's do not drop,  then I would sit Thatch.   Right now, I don't see Thatch sitting - but if we want to be good, then Thatch or the person in his position needs to be able to keep defenses honest - be a perimeter threat. Why would I sit Thatch is these unlikely scenarios?   Because Goodwin and French are not perimeter players, and if we are also to play Bell, Diarra, Hankton and Yuri (who are not 3 point shooters) then Goodwin and French will not be given proper space.  Shooting effectively from the perimeter is key - and I just don't think we have the personnel to get by with only 1.  Instead, I believe we are best to have 2 shooters at all times.  

 

 

You said: "Yes, Thatch is starting, but no, his 3's not falling is a real problem.  Your production stats miss the real point.  Our offense will NOT click if we have too many guys whose perimeter shots don't fall:   Goodwin and French are not the answer as far as perimeter shooting is concerned and if Thatch doesn't have his 3's fall (or even his mid-range shots fall as 3 Star suggests), then we will have trouble - and alot of it.  Keep in mind, most of Thatch's shots were layups and 5 footers following hard work, hustle and offensive rebounding -- same as Goodwin and French.   We cannot have 3 such grinders, and then throw in more guys who don't shoot -- Bell, Diarra, Yuri... IMO, we need 2 shooters at all times."

I'll summarize your statement:  Thatch shouldn't start if he can't shoot and his shot ain't falling ergo...[you can fill in the rest].

 

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4 hours ago, Clock_Tower said:

Yes, Thatch is starting, but no, his 3's not falling is a real problem.  Your production stats miss the real point.  Our offense will NOT click if we have too many guys whose perimeter shots don't fall:   Goodwin and French are not the answer as far as perimeter shooting is concerned and if Thatch doesn't have his 3's fall (or even his mid-range shots fall as 3 Star suggests), then we will have trouble - and alot of it.  Keep in mind, most of Thatch's shots were layups and 5 footers following hard work, hustle and offensive rebounding -- same as Goodwin and French.   We cannot have 3 such grinders, and then throw in more guys who don't shoot -- Bell, Diarra, Yuri... IMO, we need 2 shooters at all times.

The reason these 3 guys had the success they did, was because:  1) FGCU also wanted to run and not pack the lane; and 2) Jimerson knocked down 3 and Weaver knocked down his 2 and then Perkins made shots, Yuri even hit 1 and then Jacobs made 2 during the final garbage minutes.

Ok I'll play. First this is a ridiculous discussion. I didn't even respond to your post, I responded to a post saying they didn't think Thatch should start on the premise his perimeter shooting is poor. 

My production stats don't miss any real point. Points are points regardless of how they come. There are other players on the team. Now if you're saying it's easier to score with a more balanced attack, well Thanks Captain Obvious. I didn't discuss nor did I attempt to discuss what would happen if Thatch continues to shoot extremely poor from the 3. However just to humor all the what if scenarios...IF Thatch shoots poorly from 3 and he and Jordan Goodwin remain equally as productive as they were in the 1st game Coach Ford will keep them on the floor together. Well unless he reads Billikens.com and realizes that those points aren't as good as points scored with a more balanced offense. 

Now for the obvious … If Thatch shoots poorly from the perimeter and his production drops off and someone else is playing better he may lose his starting job, but it won't be quick. 

 Coach has said Thatch's outside shot is better so why are we talking about what happens if he can't shoot after 1 real game. 

And someone said maybe it was you but I'm not sure … If Jimerson's defense rivals Thatch's …. It won't. Not today, tomorrow, a year from now, or 2034. 

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2 hours ago, Clock_Tower said:

No.   Not what I said.  Where did I ever say that Thatch can't hit outside shots?  Answer:  I didn't.  You made that up.

Read above -- "Thatch is starting..." and playing b/c no one else can come close to playing the defense he does, along with being a good rebounder and making short shots.   Even if his 3's don't drop, we are still probably better with him than without him.   But if our team is to click, then either he needs have his 3's drop (or as 3 Star suggests) have his mid-range jumper drop or we need the other 2 non-Big 3 Guys- to step up and keep the defenses honest by hitting perimeter shots.   

Now, if Jimerson's keeps dropping his 3's and plays a a defense which can rival that of Thatch and if Thatch's 3's do not drop, then I would sit Thatch and play Jimerson.   And for all the Jacobs' fans, same thing.  If Jacobs' 3 pointers drop and his defense comes close to that of Thatch and Thatch's 3's do not drop,  then I would sit Thatch.   Right now, I don't see Thatch sitting - but if we want to be good, then Thatch or the person in his position needs to be able to keep defenses honest - be a perimeter threat. Why would I sit Thatch is these unlikely scenarios?   Because Goodwin and French are not perimeter players, and if we are also to play Bell, Diarra, Hankton and Yuri (who are not 3 point shooters) then Goodwin and French will not be given proper space.  Shooting effectively from the perimeter is key - and I just don't think we have the personnel to get by with only 1.  Instead, I believe we are best to have 2 shooters at all times.  

 

 

Last game Jimerson played more minutes than Thatch.  Plenty of minutes for both.

I think Ford stays with Thatch as the starter long-term because he helps make the defense first statement he wants at the start of the game.  Jimerson can continue to get 20 plus minutes a game.  I am hoping Ford plays only two guys 30 minutes a game, and barely 30 at that.  That leaves 15 to 25 minutes a game for the next seven to eight guys.  With 200 minutes a game and playing a pressing defense Ford needs to go nine deep, maybe ten most every game.

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9 minutes ago, WVBilliken said:

Last game Jimerson played more minutes than Thatch.  Plenty of minutes for both.

I think Ford stays with Thatch as the starter long-term because he helps make the defense first statement he wants at the start of the game.  Jimerson can continue to get 20 plus minutes a game.  I am hoping Ford plays only two guys 30 minutes a game, and barely 30 at that.  That leaves 15 to 25 minutes a game for the next seven to eight guys.  With 200 minutes a game and playing a pressing defense Ford needs to go nine deep, maybe ten most every game.

Agreed. However, I'll be surprised if there isn't growing pains for the Frosh early in the season potentially requiring Goodwin and Has to play above 30 a little more often then we'd like. I think we'll get there though, hopefully sooner rather than later

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6 hours ago, slufanskip said:

Thatch is starting. He's a game changer defensively and though his 3's didn't fall he was ...

Sorry I did not agree with every last point you made - just most of them. Captain Obvious?   You dont seem your normal self?
Anyway, here’s another obvious statement: we cannot have a whole team full of specialists who can only do one or two things.  Just glad the Coach Ford is setting the lineups and not this Board. 
And not every team will want to run with us like FGSU did. In fact, I will even bet that there will be a few teams who actually try to slow us down this year and play a deliberate, half court game. And guess what, another obvious statement, outside shooting will be a priority. A being a pass first PG, a promising big who takes up space, and defensive specialist will not create the needed space for French and Goodwin.

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1 hour ago, moytoy12 said:

You said: "Yes, Thatch is starting, but no, his 3's not falling is a real problem.  Your production stats miss the real point.  Our offense will NOT click if we have too many guys whose perimeter shots don't fall:   Goodwin and French are not the answer as far as perimeter shooting is concerned and if Thatch doesn't have his 3's fall (or even his mid-range shots fall as 3 Star suggests), then we will have trouble - and alot of it.  Keep in mind, most of Thatch's shots were layups and 5 footers following hard work, hustle and offensive rebounding -- same as Goodwin and French.   We cannot have 3 such grinders, and then throw in more guys who don't shoot -- Bell, Diarra, Yuri... IMO, we need 2 shooters at all times."

I'll summarize your statement:  Thatch shouldn't start if he can't shoot and his shot ain't falling ergo...[you can fill in the rest].

 

Please don’t summarize my posts. Again, you an incorrect, but then again, you are not trying to be correct.  Sorry your having a bad day. Hope things turn around for you. 

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47 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

Please don’t summarize my posts. Again, you an incorrect, but then again, you are not trying to be correct.  Sorry your having a bad day. Hope things turn around for you. 

*you’re 

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47 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

Please don’t summarize my posts. Again, you an incorrect, but then again, you are not trying to be correct.  Sorry your having a bad day. Hope things turn around for you. 

You take yourself way too seriously. 

You know, you really are the reason ppl don’t like attorneys. I’m glad I’m nothing like you. We can just ignore each other from here on out. 

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Anyway, here’s another obvious statement: we cannot have a whole team full of specialists who can only do one or two things.  Just glad the Coach Ford is setting the lineups and not this Board. 

 

Thanks for making my point. Coach is setting the lineups and he's starting Thatch if healthy. Thatch is going to play a lot of minutes this season on the floor with Goodwin whether he shoots the 3 well or not.  Are you saying Goodwin and Thatch can only do 1 or 2 things? 

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10 hours ago, slufanskip said:

.  Are you saying Goodwin and Thatch can only do 1 or 2 things? 

No. Never said Goodwin can do only 1 or 2 things - but I will say that he is not a perimeter player and I will say that he needs space to be effective and I will say that the best way for Goodwin and French to get the needed spacing is with perimeter shooting. 
So instead, I am saying we need balance and spacing to be successful - I  too believe that to be obvious - but suggest it is being ignored by others and their proposed lineups - so maybe it is not so obvious.  
And when our Big 3 of Thatch, Goodwin and French played last year, they brought similar skills, we had perimeter shooting and spacing issues, we lost games, our offense didn’t click, we blamed our beat players (Goodwin) and  we even complained about Coach Ford not being an adequate game coach. This year, am told Thatch has a perimeter shot - and I hope so bc we will need it.
Go back and reread Aquinas’ suggested lineup (not mine) and then tell me about Thatch’s production stats if our opponent falls back in a zone while focusing on Jimerson and if Thatch’s 3 don’t fall - as you suggest, not me. 

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??? I'm honestly confused about this debate over Thatch.  He's without any doubt one of our starters, pure and simple; and one of our best all-around players; and clearly our defensive stopper, with excellent stamina that will only improve.  He will be in there in close games and if we fall behind, because defensively he sets the tone.  Comparing minutes with Jimmerson in that blow-out game is not telling us very much (and no disrespect to GJ, I was blown away by him and Yuri in our first real game: WOW!).  But when we need a stop, Thatch will be in there.  At the end of the day, his outside shooting will come around.  But we begin with a Big 3, not a Big 2 plus a bunch of role-players.  I think some of you are underestimating how good he is already, and will become; and actually, how important he is RIGHT NOW to our scheme.  One person said it all: starters set the tone for a game.  Barring injury Thatch will start & get a lot of minutes, every game.

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Thatch not making threes is a very small problem. We may lose a game or two if he doesn’t start hitting, but his shortcoming in this regard is outweighed by Collins, Weaver, Perkins, Jimerson, Jacobs, and Goodwin all being on the scouting reports as three point threats.

The Wiz has it right - stats need a body of work to be reliable indicators. Thatch’s 3 pt collar is not a major limiting factor in his game or playing time.

in a similar vein, I would not be surprised to see Hargrove get rotation duty around game 4 or 5. He will know the system better, be hitting his position marks consistently and be getting dialed in enough on rotations, coverages, and switches that Ford can throw him out on pressure coverage.

The team is going through a long development period, and I see Ford doing three player rotation phases to get all the projected players up to speed before conference play, and then getting in a final rotation phase in conference before he starts a situation specific type of minute/personnel management.

13 hours ago, slufanskip said:

 

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15 hours ago, TheChosenOne said:

Didn't know where to put this, but just saw that James Wiseman, star freshman center for Memphis, has been ruled ineligible. Memphis is a top 15 team and Wiseman is projected as a top 1-3 pick in the 2020 draft, so this is certainly a meaningful ruling.

Wiseman in his one game against South Carolina State had 28 points, 11 rebounds, and 3 blocks in 22 minutes.

Today will be remembered as the day that two potential No. 1 picks in different sports, Chase Young and James Wiseman, were found ineligible by the NCAA. And another searing reminder why NCAA rules needs to evolve, quickly.


I can’t say that I’m shocked that Penny broke the rules.

What is kind of crazy is that he took a page right out of Butch Mcrae’s playbook and got a family a house.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQtHa1Ur3muLD--pzWlHiK

Penny learned how to cheat from a 1994 movie he stared in.

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