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OT: Game of Thrones [Includes Spoilers]

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How much does George RR Martin influence these scripts?  All of the things that Game of Thrones became known for, the unexpected deaths and killing of main characters were all from his books.  Since the show passed the books, it seems we haven't had much of that aspect of it.  I think that could be part of it with this battle too for not killing off more of the main characters when perhaps he would have taken a different approach.  Now we might not ever be able to know because he could be influenced by the show.  

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Ya think the gripe about not many main characters dying is fair. I definitely felt the tension of everyone before the battle started. Think it was a well shot episode with lots of action. I enjoyed it. Expectations were very high though.  Crypt scene with Sansa and Tyrion was classic. This is no longer RR Martin's baby. That is very apparent. Now they can focus on the battle for the throne which is the main plot of the story anyway.

Also why is ghost not getting more screen time? 

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The bad-

Hard to have much suspense when there are three episodes remaining. Obviously, the Living had to win, unless they planned to have the rest of the series be a flashback/flash-forward/shots of zombies walking around.

It's also really weird if that whole storyline is just...done? Like...OK, now back to our scheduled programming of fighting over a Throne which half of the people in the show now *should* have the perspective to realize doesn't...actually matter, having looked death in the face?

Episode was so poorly lit it was damn near impossible to tell what was going on for major swaths of the battle, even with the lights off and a pretty nice TV.

The good-

Everything Arya/Hound/Red Lady/Beric-related was awesome. "What do we say to the God of Death?" / "Not today." (At this point if I lived in Westeros I'd totally be converting to Lord of Light religion, lol)

I was glad Theon got his redemption/forgiveness story.

All the Sansa/Tyrion scenes were great. Is it gross that I kind of ship them now?

Musings-

Has Arya killed anyone with green eyes yet?

Still think there's a chance that *if* we do get to find out the origin story of the Night King, it'll be revealed it's some Bran-time-loop-warging-into-First-Men kinda thing. 

Still a chance for Cleganebowl. I'll actually be disappointed if they've kept the Hound alive all this time and made the "scared of fire because of his brother" thing such a big part of his character and he doesn't even fight him.

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1 hour ago, Bills_06 said:

How much does George RR Martin influence these scripts?  All of the things that Game of Thrones became known for, the unexpected deaths and killing of main characters were all from his books.  Since the show passed the books, it seems we haven't had much of that aspect of it.  I think that could be part of it with this battle too for not killing off more of the main characters when perhaps he would have taken a different approach.  Now we might not ever be able to know because he could be influenced by the show.  

I read once he gave the showrunners a general framework for how it was all supposed to end, but I don't think he's involved too heavily with the more specific storytelling.

I was underwhelmed by last night had hoped for more from this final season.  I still greatly enjoy the show and the action (what you could see of it) last night was fun, particularly Arya's scenes, but the show doesn't surprise anymore or offer any real plot twists.  I've always felt like the white walker stuff was the least interesting thing about the show, but we spent 10 years hearing that the army of the dead was coming and this was the "real war".  It ended with one flick of the wrist and the deaths of like 4 secondary characters.  Now we're left with just 3 episodes to sort out the best part of the series.  

 

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5 minutes ago, SShoe said:

I read once he gave the showrunners a general framework for how it was all supposed to end, but I don't think he's involved too heavily with the more specific storytelling.

I was underwhelmed by last night had hoped for more from this final season.  I still greatly enjoy the show and the action (what you could see of it) last night was fun, particularly Arya's scenes, but the show doesn't surprise anymore or offer any real plot twists.  I've always felt like the white walker stuff was the least interesting thing about the show, but we spent 10 years hearing that the army of the dead was coming and this was the "real war".  It ended with one flick of the wrist and the deaths of like 4 secondary characters.  Now we're left with just 3 episodes to sort out the best part of the series.  

 

I honestly thought that second episode was one of the best episodes in the show. Lot of great interactions. Hopefully they throw some more twist in here towards the end. 

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10 minutes ago, rgbilliken said:

The bad-

Hard to have much suspense when there are three episodes remaining. Obviously, the Living had to win, unless they planned to have the rest of the series be a flashback/flash-forward/shots of zombies walking around.

It's also really weird if that whole storyline is just...done? Like...OK, now back to our scheduled programming of fighting over a Throne which half of the people in the show now *should* have the perspective to realize doesn't...actually matter, having looked death in the face?

Episode was so poorly lit it was damn near impossible to tell what was going on for major swaths of the battle, even with the lights off and a pretty nice TV.

The good-

Everything Arya/Hound/Red Lady/Beric-related was awesome. "What do we say to the God of Death?" / "Not today." (At this point if I lived in Westeros I'd totally be converting to Lord of Light religion, lol)

I was glad Theon got his redemption/forgiveness story.

All the Sansa/Tyrion scenes were great. Is it gross that I kind of ship them now?

Musings-

Has Arya killed anyone with green eyes yet?

Still think there's a chance that *if* we do get to find out the origin story of the Night King, it'll be revealed it's some Bran-time-loop-warging-into-First-Men kinda thing. 

Still a chance for Cleganebowl. I'll actually be disappointed if they've kept the Hound alive all this time and made the "scared of fire because of his brother" thing such a big part of his character and he doesn't even fight him.

I think this is a very good take.  I don't quite agree with the appreciation of Theon getting forgiveness (I honestly didn't care all that much), but I did really appreciate the Hound/Arya story and connection.

For discussion about eyes: https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/film-tv/a27303477/who-has-green-eyes-on-game-of-thrones/

I overall am not sure how I will be satisfied now by any ending.  As the main "shock" ending would be the Night King winning everything, but I am not sure who I would be surprised by by taking the throne...other than maybe Lord Vary's.  I think the most interesting plot items could somehow involve Bronn's assignment to kill Tyrion.

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Last night's episode really annoyed me.   I spent all day Saturday "wargaming" a tactical plan then I watched this poorly executed deliberate defense. So I was in analytical mode.

If you have obstacles (trenches,  tricalps etc) they are used to slow or divert the enemy.   If you have fire support (cannons,  rockets, missiles) you target the enemy at those points. Also calvary doesn't attack head on, usually used along the flanks.

 

  So if I'm defending Winterfell, I have flame trenches and dragon glass tricalps emplaced at near the limit of trebuchet range.  I add another line of them at the limit of long bow range.  This provides targets for the indirect fire weapons.   Then I would have flaming oil ready to poor on those who make it to scale the wall.  I would also continue to use dragon fire on the enemy at the choke points.

I keep the Dothraki cavalry on the flank to quickly maneuver to engage the enemy on the flanks and keep them cannalized.

And that's just my issues with the tactics.   The long stares the running from 4 dudes in the library after you dropped about 88 in 2 seconds was just meh.  Also I want to be up there fighting.   Chance to fight comes.   Nah I'll just chill here with my Valarian steel dagger.   The long leisurely walk to Bran and smug face.

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On 4/29/2019 at 1:34 PM, rgbilliken said:

The bad-

Hard to have much suspense when there are three episodes remaining. Obviously, the Living had to win, unless they planned to have the rest of the series be a flashback/flash-forward/shots of zombies walking around.

It's also really weird if that whole storyline is just...done? Like...OK, now back to our scheduled programming of fighting over a Throne which half of the people in the show now *should* have the perspective to realize doesn't...actually matter, having looked death in the face?

Episode was so poorly lit it was damn near impossible to tell what was going on for major swaths of the battle, even with the lights off and a pretty nice TV.

The good-

Everything Arya/Hound/Red Lady/Beric-related was awesome. "What do we say to the God of Death?" / "Not today." (At this point if I lived in Westeros I'd totally be converting to Lord of Light religion, lol)

I was glad Theon got his redemption/forgiveness story.

All the Sansa/Tyrion scenes were great. Is it gross that I kind of ship them now?

Musings-

Has Arya killed anyone with green eyes yet?

Still think there's a chance that *if* we do get to find out the origin story of the Night King, it'll be revealed it's some Bran-time-loop-warging-into-First-Men kinda thing. 

Still a chance for Cleganebowl. I'll actually be disappointed if they've kept the Hound alive all this time and made the "scared of fire because of his brother" thing such a big part of his character and he doesn't even fight him.

The bad-

Jon ghosting ghost. Wtf. Worst dog owner award. 

Brienne and Jaime goodbye. Was Jaime supposed to come across as going back to Cersei? He's obviously going to kill her/or attempt as much. Not sure why they tried so hard to make this ambiguous/weird. 

Cutting away from Bran/Jon telling Arya/Sansa who he really is. Are you kidding me?????

The entire Bronn scene. So much cringe. 

Everything with Dany vs. the Iron Fleet. Like, you're sailing into the city, maybe try and be prepared for their Navy? They already took you by surprise once? Try and do a little scouting with those dragons of yours?? Also obvs the part where these ballistas are now the most accurate weapons in the GOT universe (except when they're not). Wouldn't it have made more sense to just have the dragon die last week? 

Cersei, who murdered 500 people at the Sept of Baelor, is now above wiping out Dany, her last dragon, and Tyrion, when they are right in front of her? Seems odd. Also the second time she's passed up on killing Tyrion. 

That Starbucks cup OMG (jk who cares) 

The good-

Again, Arya and the Hound, and Sansa and the Hound. Great stuff. 

Everyone acknowledging that Jon came back from the dead was fun. 

I might need a rewatch to come up with more "good" lol. Putting the Stark pin on Theon was nice! 

Musings-

Jaime and Arya as Jaime show up to kill Cersei at the same time?? Insert spiderman meme here lol 

Still a chance for Cleganebowl -- this has to be a lock right?? Unfinished business yes! 

I think Tyrion will turn on Varys, who Dany will kill. (Revealing your schemes -- very on brand for Varys. NOT.) 


All in all, I was in the camp that enjoyed Episode 3. 10/10 viewing experience, even though there were some head-scratching tactical moves (as A_Bomb detailed), and killing the NK before Cersei was not how I expected it to play out. My only guess is that in the books, it makes sense for Euron, who is this teetering on God-like character, a very compelling psychopath, to be this big final villain. He has a horn that supposedly can bind dragons to his will, and I wouldn't be surprised if he raises a Kraken from the sea or some shiiit. He's way more Ramsey Bolton than the show version. Also, I think Cersei might already be dead at this point, but the show-runners kept her around because Lena Headley is so good. So here we are. 

I can forgive a lot of the things that people complained about in E3, because it was still awesome TV (though they dragged out the last 10 mins juuust a bit *BITES TONGUE*). This week.. so much more wtf. I have no more hope for Bran being useful. The Dany-Jon back and forth becoming unbearable.  So much stuff to wrap up, and I'm guessing A LOT of things will fall to the wayside and never be resolved or explained. We will see! 

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On 4/29/2019 at 12:30 PM, RiseOfTheBillikens said:

Ya think the gripe about not many main characters dying is fair. I definitely felt the tension of everyone before the battle started. Think it was a well shot episode with lots of action. I enjoyed it. Expectations were very high though.  Crypt scene with Sansa and Tyrion was classic. This is no longer RR Martin's baby. That is very apparent. Now they can focus on the battle for the throne which is the main plot of the story anyway.

Also why is ghost not getting more screen time? 

If you read the books they present, without a shade of a doubt, a vastly more complex tableau of characters each with his/her own intentions and ambitions. HBO cannot handle it any longer, that should be obvious to all. What is happening is that they are closing the open thereads in a grand finale. Ask yourself who is hated by everyone, that person will die most likely. The battle itself took weeks to film and it is the possible climax of the whole series (that is as per HBO). Who knows what George Martin had in mind when writing this thing, one thing is for certain: he would not have had any shuch "bet the farm" types of battles. Good versus evil is a true theme throughout the books and the series, but I am certain he would have preferred a much more subltle wrap up. Martin spent far too much time creating an alternate world, with a cast of  characters to match a whole world, to wrap the whole thing up in a wiz bang battle. This does not mean he actually is free to write an alternate ending to the whole thing. He may be contractually bound to follow the HBO series, which is a real shame. I would have loved to read the real ending to this saga, which is certainly not what HBO has crafted for the  purpose of terminating the series.

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10 minutes ago, Old guy said:

This does not mean he actually is free to write an alternate ending to the whole thing. He may be contractually bound to follow the HBO series, which is a real shame. I would have loved to read the real ending to this saga, which is certainly not what HBO has crafted for the  purpose of terminating the series.

Zero chance this is accurate 

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I think the books have already been written and they are waiting for the show to end to release them.  I think the book series  probably has a similar ending, but a drastically different journey to that point.

I am really starting to dislike most of the characters on the show and not in a villainy kind of way.  The only two I think I still like are Arya and the hound.  I don’t know what they are doing with Jaime, but it doesn’t make sense for him to have what happened at Dragonstone to trigger it.  Brieanne just became a Knight of the 7 Kingdoms, but she isn’t going to fight for them. Tormund is going home instead of fighting for the guy he just called a king.  Sansa has to be a gossip queen.  I was done with Dany a couple of seasons ago. The writers have ruined Tyrian and Varys.  They ruined Bron in five minutes last night. Cersei isn’t a ruthless ruler who had a good plan to retain power anymore.  She makes stupid decisions, but only has a chance to stay in power because the decision makers on the other side are dumbest group ever to rise to power.  They can keep on trying to make me care about Grey Worm and Missy but I won’t.  They have made Jon into a guy that would be a terrible ruler, but every other option is even worse. Somebody needs to have the decency to put Bran out his misery. Davos is still OK.

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3 hours ago, majerus mojo said:

Zero chance this is accurate 

Just to clarify things. Have you read all of Martin's GOT books up to the time he stopped publishing them? I really do not know if you are correct and those two lines are entirely and completely inaccurate or not. I guess the only way to find out is to wait for him to write the next book and to see what he says in it.

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11 hours ago, brianstl said:

I think the books have already been written and they are waiting for the show to end to release them.  I think the book series  probably has a similar ending, but a drastically different journey to that point.

I am really starting to dislike most of the characters on the show and not in a villainy kind of way.  The only two I think I still like are Arya and the hound.  I don’t know what they are doing with Jaime, but it doesn’t make sense for him to have what happened at Dragonstone to trigger it.  Brieanne just became a Knight of the 7 Kingdoms, but she isn’t going to fight for them. Tormund is going home instead of fighting for the guy he just called a king.  Sansa has to be a gossip queen.  I was done with Dany a couple of seasons ago. The writers have ruined Tyrian and Varys.  They ruined Bron in five minutes last night. Cersei isn’t a ruthless ruler who had a good plan to retain power anymore.  She makes stupid decisions, but only has a chance to stay in power because the decision makers on the other side are dumbest group ever to rise to power.  They can keep on trying to make me care about Grey Worm and Missy but I won’t.  They have made Jon into a guy that would be a terrible ruler, but every other option is even worse. Somebody needs to have the decency to put Bran out his misery. Davos is still OK.

That is what happens when a masterwork gets hijacked by a bunch of film writers with orders to  end the  series in one last episode. The depth of the characters are lost and the decisions made by characters who have been truly masterful thinkers and planners become flat or outright stupid, as you describe. Thinking gets replaced by constant action and warfare. I hope the book is different and maintains the character of the many people involved in the story.

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12 hours ago, Old guy said:

Just to clarify things. Have you read all of Martin's GOT books up to the time he stopped publishing them? I really do not know if you are correct and those two lines are entirely and completely inaccurate or not. I guess the only way to find out is to wait for him to write the next book and to see what he says in it.

Sad I just happened into this thread late. It was my understanding that he is intentionally (or just by chance) waiting to publish the books because he wants to take the ending a completely different direction. I am not by any means an overly dedicated Thrones fan, just a Sunday night couch fan, but from the more dedicated fans I converse with, this has seemed to be the prevailing thought. 

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12 hours ago, Old guy said:

Just to clarify things. Have you read all of Martin's GOT books up to the time he stopped publishing them? I really do not know if you are correct and those two lines are entirely and completely inaccurate or not. I guess the only way to find out is to wait for him to write the next book and to see what he says in it.

I've read through A Song of Ice and Fire, but not all of the anthology works he's put out. I just have never heard of an author being bound to follow the TV adaptation of his novels, were he to write more novels. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and if this were part of his contract I'm assuming would have leaked by now. (Or used as an excuse for why the next book is taking so long...)

The last two books really dive into the Iron Born and Dorne, among other characters not on the show. Would be extremely hard for him to just follow the HBO scripts. 

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14 hours ago, brianstl said:

I think the books have already been written and they are waiting for the show to end to release them.  I think the book series  probably has a similar ending, but a drastically different journey to that point.

0 percent chance that all of the books have been finished. I could definitely see The Winds of Winter being (almost) finished, and GRRM and the publishers announcing a release date at the end of this season, but no way the last book is even close to being done. (and that's assuming he can wrap up the series in 2 books anyway)

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21 hours ago, RiseOfTheBillikens said:

That was the best episode of tv I've ever watched just from a thriller/action standpoint. Absolutely wild. 

Aside from the ten minutes of Cersei staring out the window, it was pretty great.

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25 minutes ago, Box and Won said:

Aside from the ten minutes of Cersei staring out the window, it was pretty great.

What do you want, a repeat of the walk of shame? 

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The bad:

I'm in the camp that thought the Dany-mad queen heel turn didn't really make sense. It could have, if they would have set it up more, but I guess there wasn't really time to show her descent into madness. The closest they came on this was her (correct) paranoia about Sansa, her stupidly just going down to King's Landing like, the day after losing half her army, and her anger at losing another dragon and Missandei.

I get that Varys' shtick is that he wants the ruler who'd be best for The Realm...but I still have a hard time believing that he'd (a) think that person would be Jon Snow and (b) be stupid enough to get killed for it. 

The good:

Cleganebowl lived up to the hype imo. No better way for Sandor to go out than facing his largest fear while accomplishing his life's goal.

I laughed when Qyburn died. Hilarious cosmically fitting death. Also, Cersei just quietly leaving The Hound/The Mountain to it like "uhhh ... this doesn't seem to have to do with me..."

I do love me some dragon-induced destruction. This episode was visually stunning. Agree with everyone who said it was a great episode of TV from an action standpoint.

Musings:

Is that *really* how Cersei dies? I'm surprised if so. Still think there is a chance that Jamie saves her life by sacrificing his own body so she won't be crushed. I never believe someone is dead on TV unless they physically show them dying. This is Game of Thrones. Would they really miss a chance to show one of the most-hated villains of all time be gratuitously crushed?

Are we done with Sansa/Bran/Brienne/everyone else in the North??

Someone on Twitter said something to the effect of "Bran called a horse Uber for Arya." I like the idea that Bran warged into that horse to get Arya safely out of the city.

Someone else posted this re: how Jon Snow felt when Dany started torching everything:

image.jpeg.e0e98dd3e353565550b49c8571615d81.jpeg

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46 minutes ago, rgbilliken said:

The bad:

I'm in the camp that thought the Dany-mad queen heel turn didn't really make sense. It could have, if they would have set it up more, but I guess there wasn't really time to show her descent into madness. The closest they came on this was her (correct) paranoia about Sansa, her stupidly just going down to King's Landing like, the day after losing half her army, and her anger at losing another dragon and Missandei.

I get that Varys' shtick is that he wants the ruler who'd be best for The Realm...but I still have a hard time believing that he'd (a) think that person would be Jon Snow and (b) be stupid enough to get killed for it. 

The good:

Cleganebowl lived up to the hype imo. No better way for Sandor to go out than facing his largest fear while accomplishing his life's goal.

I laughed when Qyburn died. Hilarious cosmically fitting death. Also, Cersei just quietly leaving The Hound/The Mountain to it like "uhhh ... this doesn't seem to have to do with me..."

I do love me some dragon-induced destruction. This episode was visually stunning. Agree with everyone who said it was a great episode of TV from an action standpoint.

Musings:

Is that *really* how Cersei dies? I'm surprised if so. Still think there is a chance that Jamie saves her life by sacrificing his own body so she won't be crushed. I never believe someone is dead on TV unless they physically show them dying. This is Game of Thrones. Would they really miss a chance to show one of the most-hated villains of all time be gratuitously crushed?

Are we done with Sansa/Bran/Brienne/everyone else in the North??

Someone on Twitter said something to the effect of "Bran called a horse Uber for Arya." I like the idea that Bran warged into that horse to get Arya safely out of the city.

Someone else posted this re: how Jon Snow felt when Dany started torching everything:

image.jpeg.e0e98dd3e353565550b49c8571615d81.jpeg

I'm in the camp that thought the Dany-mad queen heel turn didn't really make sense. It could have, if they would have set it up more, but I guess there wasn't really time to show her descent into madness. The closest they came on this was her (correct) paranoia about Sansa, her stupidly just going down to King's Landing like, the day after losing half her army, and her anger at losing another dragon and Missandei.

She was temperamental the whole time but had the eunuch to slow her roll.

Is that *really* how Cersei dies? I'm surprised if so. Still think there is a chance that Jamie saves her life by sacrificing his own body so she won't be crushed. I never believe someone is dead on TV unless they physically show them dying. This is Game of Thrones. Would they really miss a chance to show one of the most-hated villains of all time be gratuitously crushed?

The city she loved and tried so desperately to control and she was ultimately crushed by it.

It's also just a show so who gives a fuok.

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My wife and I tried starting this series this past weekend. I became uninterested after 2 episodes. Apparently I'm the only person in the United States that doesn't have a perverted medieval dragon fantasy...

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