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NCAA and One and Done

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1 minute ago, billikenfan05 said:

Who said the NCAA should be the one lecturing anyone? 

They are the one's setting these draconian rules.

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surprised no one is bring up Drew Hanlen.  He was doing a job that makes money while playing at Belmont.  His company "pure sweat" was started while he was playing in college.  But, he never received any of the money until he graduated. Ive heard two different things about where the money was going. 1) him mom, 2) an account that was blocked from collections until he was of a certain age(past eligibility).  Ive always wanted to ask him, but could never get the balls to do so. 

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2 hours ago, TheA_Bomb said:

They are the one's setting these draconian rules.

-to you they are draconian, to others the rules are okay

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All these arguments about "America is a free country" and person XYZ can do this, why can't the basketball player do it, kind of misses the point that NOBODY FORCES THESE KIDS TO PLAY COLLEGE BASKETBALL. There are plenty of viable options from the G-League to Europe to soon to be NBA. If they want the money and value it more than the education plus a stipend, then let them go do it.

College football is a different story unfortunately as there is no viable option to playing 3 years of college football.

As for the heat being turned off type situations, that is where a modest increase in the stipend should eliminate those things.

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I am not against kid's getting an additional stipend for spending money per month from the big bad NCAA.  What I am questioning  is how one would work without the other ---- Karlie was probably a baby model long before she was eligible to pop into the pages in between of a girlie magazine (J Geils words) or did some baby modeling at 8, teen angst at 13.  I am sure she didn't get a modeling scholarship with free tuition and room and board at NYU.  My son-in-law would kill me if he read this board and found out I outted him as a male model in his high school and college years.   Did he make money?  Sure.  But it was his look not his name.  Zion doesn't get a stitch of attention without basketball being somewhere in the equation.  And if its money he wants, shut up and go pro. 

If I'm Ben McLemore's mom and he's getting a stipend of a couple grand a month, send some home.  He can budget.  Count me in the camp that says with room, board, tuition, clothing, etc., that paycheck PLUS a monthly stipend, is fine by me.  You can't cry boo-hoo I can't take my girl out for a pizza and then think its the same thing that deserves compensation at $60k a year ($5k times 12 months).  My wife doesn't make half that.  My kid, who has more letters behind her name making daddy prouder then heck, only makes $62k a year and has $80k in grad school debt.  What's Zion getting next year?  Three years and $9 million.  Oh the inhumanity!  Take your Street and Smith's Top 50 and tell them to go pro.  I don't care where.  If they decide to choose college, get them the stipend and commit to three years after your high school class graduates.  I don't care that they sell their image and ikeness ... just nothing to do with basketball while they basketball .. or hockey .. or soccer ... or water polo .......I think its an unfair advantage eto schools an dkids in the larger conferences where their games are on TV constantly on the east coast.  But this is an age old question that just gets harder to define and regulate in terms of donors, boosters, mega conferences, TV deals, sneaker deals and so on.  I'd even advocate efor taking all names off the back of all jersey in college. 

Jalen Lecque.  Going pro straight out of Brewster Academy so he thinks.  Knock yourself out.  Right now, what's he got to sell?  He doesn't even have Zion's platform because he didn't get to play in the spotlight that is the NCAA tournament or the ACC network or CBS that made Zion this so-called star that he is.  Everybody has the right in a capitalistic society to sell their soul if they so desire.  My point is that without signing on with a college, without that kind of agreement, there is no real exposure for these sport superstar wannabees.  Karlie Kross is lucky.  Case(s) in point:  Cindy Crawford, Kathy Ireland, Heidi Klum, Gabrielle Brady.  Counterpoints:  Joe Namath, Earl Campbell, Bill Walton.  Good loks can last.  Athleticism not so much. 

As for rules, you don't like city hall, move out of the city.  I think the money that is pouring into the NCAA can be better dispensed. 

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7 minutes ago, Taj79 said:

I am not against kid's getting an additional stipend for spending money per month from the big bad NCAA.  What I am questioning  is how one would work without the other ---- Karlie was probably a baby model long before she was eligible to pop into the pages in between of a girlie magazine (J Geils words) or did some baby modeling at 8, teen angst at 13.  I am sure she didn't get a modeling scholarship with free tuition and room and board at NYU.  My son-in-law would kill me if he read this board and found out I outted him as a male model in his high school and college years.   Did he make money?  Sure.  But it was his look not his name.  Zion doesn't get a stitch of attention without basketball being somewhere in the equation.  And if its money he wants, shut up and go pro. 

If I'm Ben McLemore's mom and he's getting a stipend of a couple grand a month, send some home.  He can budget.  Count me in the camp that says with room, board, tuition, clothing, etc., that paycheck PLUS a monthly stipend, is fine by me.  You can't cry boo-hoo I can't take my girl out for a pizza and then think its the same thing that deserves compensation at $60k a year ($5k times 12 months).  My wife doesn't make half that.  My kid, who has more letters behind her name making daddy prouder then heck, only makes $62k a year and has $80k in grad school debt.  What's Zion getting next year?  Three years and $9 million.  Oh the inhumanity!  Take your Street and Smith's Top 50 and tell them to go pro.  I don't care where.  If they decide to choose college, get them the stipend and commit to three years after your high school class graduates.  I don't care that they sell their image and ikeness ... just nothing to do with basketball while they basketball .. or hockey .. or soccer ... or water polo .......I think its an unfair advantage eto schools an dkids in the larger conferences where their games are on TV constantly on the east coast.  But this is an age old question that just gets harder to define and regulate in terms of donors, boosters, mega conferences, TV deals, sneaker deals and so on.  I'd even advocate efor taking all names off the back of all jersey in college. 

Jalen Lecque.  Going pro straight out of Brewster Academy so he thinks.  Knock yourself out.  Right now, what's he got to sell?  He doesn't even have Zion's platform because he didn't get to play in the spotlight that is the NCAA tournament or the ACC network or CBS that made Zion this so-called star that he is.  Everybody has the right in a capitalistic society to sell their soul if they so desire.  My point is that without signing on with a college, without that kind of agreement, there is no real exposure for these sport superstar wannabees.  Karlie Kross is lucky.  Case(s) in point:  Cindy Crawford, Kathy Ireland, Heidi Klum, Gabrielle Brady.  Counterpoints:  Joe Namath, Earl Campbell, Bill Walton.  Good loks can last.  Athleticism not so much. 

As for rules, you don't like city hall, move out of the city.  I think the money that is pouring into the NCAA can be better dispensed. 

Who built the platform?

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51 minutes ago, kshoe said:

All these arguments about "America is a free country" and person XYZ can do this, why can't the basketball player do it, kind of misses the point that NOBODY FORCES THESE KIDS TO PLAY COLLEGE BASKETBALL. There are plenty of viable options from the G-League to Europe to soon to be NBA. If they want the money and value it more than the education plus a stipend, then let them go do it.

College football is a different story unfortunately as there is no viable option to playing 3 years of college football.

As for the heat being turned off type situations, that is where a modest increase in the stipend should eliminate those things.

True they don't have to play college basketball.   But the rules are unduly harsh and limiting of a person's individual freedoms.   For what purpose?  To curtail influence to attend one school over another.  The rules haven't achieved that purpose so why continue?  To continue  limits the least powerful in this entire situation.  

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all this talk of salaries and stipend and freedom to make money off your reputation and brand, to me only screams no need for school.   back to basic isnt college for education not sports?    anything that discourages academics should be thrown out.   

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16 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

anything that discourages academics should be thrown out.   

Yeah I'm glad they got rid of Humps too

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The long and the short of it for me is that anything that makes it harder for lower level programs to compete is problematic.  In my opinion there is no fair way to players to get paid differently by different schools.  Maybe some sort of revenue sharing split among all D1 players based on total revenue could work.  We've got enough problems as it is with sleazy coaches and street agents and shoe companies and bogus classes and greedy hangers on .  Throw a bunch of cash in that dumpster fire and count me out.....

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Ben McLemore was ranked 49th, 39th and 34th in the major scouting resources.  That's after the blue blood bump that does exist.  He got drafted 7th overall.  If he would have gone straight to the pros he's probably in Europe fighting for a summer tryout.  Bill Self and KU deserve some of the credit for his career.  

BTW  Ben spent his summers in Lawrence getting his college degree.  That doesn't seem like someone regretting his decision.

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17 minutes ago, TJHawk said:

Ben McLemore was ranked 49th, 39th and 34th in the major scouting resources.  That's after the blue blood bump that does exist.  He got drafted 7th overall.  If he would have gone straight to the pros he's probably in Europe fighting for a summer tryout.  Bill Self and KU deserve some of the credit for his career.  

BTW  Ben spent his summers in Lawrence getting his college degree.  That doesn't seem like someone regretting his decision.

That's great.  What's his degree?  Quantum physics or chemical engineering? 

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3star:  colleges built the platform.  The NCAA built the platform.  Cable TV built the platform.  National TV built the platform.  Fans built the platform.  Players played on that platform and added to it.  Sponsors built the platform.  Shoe companies and apparel companies built the platform.  Zion and the others use the platform to get to their ultimate goal.  If there are dues to using the platform, there are dues.  I am okay with that.  I pay my cable bill to use this platform.  Capitalism is built on supply and demand.  Without the platform, there is no demand for Zion the dunker.  And some demand is concocted ---- look at Big Baller Brand.  That's alive because of invented demand,not skill.  Without the media platform, Lamar Ball is just another huckster like Crazy Eddie or Uncle Leonard.  

SLU built my platform.  Sixty hours of core credits.  30+ hours in a major program.  Another 30 split in the major and electives.  Be on the platform, follow the rules, get degree.  My goal was to get a degree.  Rules followed.  Mission accomplished.  I didn't walk out making $3 million per year like Zion will.  I'm okay with that.  I won't contribute directly to his next platform just like i wouldn't contribute to some YouTube looney telling me what fashion is.   

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12 hours ago, Taj79 said:

3star:  colleges built the platform.  The NCAA built the platform.  Cable TV built the platform.  National TV built the platform.  Fans built the platform.  Players played on that platform and added to it.  Sponsors built the platform.  Shoe companies and apparel companies built the platform.  Zion and the others use the platform to get to their ultimate goal.  If there are dues to using the platform, there are dues.  I am okay with that.  I pay my cable bill to use this platform.  Capitalism is built on supply and demand.  Without the platform, there is no demand for Zion the dunker.  And some demand is concocted ---- look at Big Baller Brand.  That's alive because of invented demand,not skill.  Without the media platform, Lamar Ball is just another huckster like Crazy Eddie or Uncle Leonard.  

SLU built my platform.  Sixty hours of core credits.  30+ hours in a major program.  Another 30 split in the major and electives.  Be on the platform, follow the rules, get degree.  My goal was to get a degree.  Rules followed.  Mission accomplished.  I didn't walk out making $3 million per year like Zion will.  I'm okay with that.  I won't contribute directly to his next platform just like i wouldn't contribute to some YouTube looney telling me what fashion is.   

It's also built on labor and this is a situation where the labor is paid nothing from the revenue they generate.

I don't get the argument about who built the platform. I didn't build the banking platform but I still get paid by a bank to do my job.

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3 minutes ago, Pistol said:

It's also built on labor and this is a situation where the labor is paid nothing from the revenue they generate.

I don't get the argument about who built the platform. I didn't build the banking platform but I still get paid by a bank to do my job.

Here's where I think this issue will never be resolved. There are people who believe that the labor is being paid for with an education, housing, food, clothing, networking for after graduation etc and then there are those who believe that's not a form of payment.

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Just now, billikenfan05 said:

Here's where I think this issue will never be resolved. There are people who believe that the labor is being paid for with an education, housing, food, clothing, networking for after graduation etc and then there are those who believe that's not a form of payment.

I agree that it's the biggest sticking point and I think there's some sound footing on both sides of it, but the one thing that I can't understand is how anyone would be opposed to them having the right to use their name and image to make money on their own, via endorsements or other means. I haven't heard a logical reason to oppose that.

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7 minutes ago, Pistol said:

It's also built on labor and this is a situation where the labor is paid nothing from the revenue they generate.

I don't get the argument about who built the platform. I didn't build the banking platform but I still get paid by a bank to do my job.

They aren't being paid nothing. Full scholarship plus other perks is enough to get most people excited. It is most certainly a form of payment. It doesn't compete with NBA money but for many is preferable over Europe cash or G-league cash. And there is the issue, there is basically an unlimited supply of labor willing to play college basketball for tuition and perks so why would the powers that be want to open pandoras box and pay them in order to compete with pro leagues? Let the top 5% go and just hope that fans still root for the names on the front of the jersey is the way it is going to go.

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I doubt that most believe that a player using his image or likeness is a big deal.  It is the other stuff that 05 and you have mentioned above that causes the disagreement.  

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7 minutes ago, Pistol said:

I agree that it's the biggest sticking point and I think there's some sound footing on both sides of it, but the one thing that I can't understand is how anyone would be opposed to them having the right to use their name and image to make money on their own, via endorsements or other means. I haven't heard a logical reason to oppose that.

I've said it many times. What is to stop Kentucky from having a big booster pay player XYZ $1mm for him to do one tv commercial? Duke would offer $1.5mm. Use of likeness is basically the same as free agency in the form of cash. There is no difference.

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20 minutes ago, Pistol said:

It's also built on labor and this is a situation where the labor is paid nothing from the revenue they generate.

I don't get the argument about who built the platform. I didn't build the banking platform but I still get paid by a bank to do my job.

Now I c y u have so much time. Bankers hours😎

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13 minutes ago, Pistol said:

I agree that it's the biggest sticking point and I think there's some sound footing on both sides of it, but the one thing that I can't understand is how anyone would be opposed to them having the right to use their name and image to make money on their own, via endorsements or other means. I haven't heard a logical reason to oppose that.

I'm by far one of the worst on this board at backing up my opinions with sound arguments(Mostly due to laziness) but two things I've wondered about are Title IX(How would this go over with women's basketball) and the non-rev sports. Those would be my questions.

I'm completely down with likeness rights, mostly because I would love to see 2k be able to revive College Hoops 2k and EA revive NCAA Football and likeness payments would be a great way to do it.

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26 minutes ago, Pistol said:

It's also built on labor and this is a situation where the labor is paid nothing from the revenue they generate.

I don't get the argument about who built the platform. I didn't build the banking platform but I still get paid by a bank to do my job.

-paid nothing? 

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4 minutes ago, kshoe said:

I've said it many times. What is to stop Kentucky from having a big booster pay player XYZ $1mm for him to do one tv commercial? Duke would offer $1.5mm. Use of likeness is basically the same as free agency in the form of cash. There is no difference.

If they decide to do that, so what?  UK and Duke already get the best prospects.

I just don't think that kind of money would flow around for that long.  There is only so much money people will throw away without any possible return on the money or tax benefit.  

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6 minutes ago, kshoe said:

I've said it many times. What is to stop Kentucky from having a big booster pay player XYZ $1mm for him to do one tv commercial? Duke would offer $1.5mm. Use of likeness is basically the same as free agency in the form of cash. There is no difference.

And I've also said this repeatedly: This wouldn't change the current power balance at all. Kentucky and Duke already get the top players. They already have lucrative futures lined up. Saying we can't allow college athletes to benefit from their own labor and image because it will give big-money programs an unfair advantage ignores the college sports landscape as it already exists.

But here's the other part of this equation. Once you let the one-and-done players go straight to the NBA, you eliminate the tier that would command truly big dollars. Then the next level are the guys who might be able to leave early, but not necessarily one-and-done. They're not sure things. In your scenario, they're not the guys rich alums would want to throw money at to such a significant degree - the marginal value over the next player isn't nearly as significant. So things come back to earth quite a bit.

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17 minutes ago, kshoe said:

They aren't being paid nothing. Full scholarship plus other perks is enough to get most people excited. It is most certainly a form of payment. It doesn't compete with NBA money but for many is preferable over Europe cash or G-league cash. And there is the issue, there is basically an unlimited supply of labor willing to play college basketball for tuition and perks so why would the powers that be want to open pandoras box and pay them in order to compete with pro leagues? Let the top 5% go and just hope that fans still root for the names on the front of the jersey is the way it is going to go.

 

5 minutes ago, Cowboy said:

-paid nothing? 

@billikenfan05 - This is exactly the sticking point you brought up on the previous page, the fundamental disagreement about what is considered payment.

A scholarship doesn't put money in your pocket today. It doesn't help your family pay bills. It doesn't take your girlfriend to the movies. It doesn't put gas in the tank. It is not liquid.

Is it a form of payment? Sure, I guess saying "paid nothing" isn't telling the whole picture on my part. However, when the NCAA, schools, and coaches are splitting billions of dollars and the players only get a scholarship, that's hard to accept.

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