Fall 2017 allegations against unnamed players (aka Situation 2)

[cgeldmacher]

1 hour ago, Pistol said:

"An accuser's right to accuse" is an interesting choice of words. The right to seek justice is sort of fundamental to a functioning society, no?

I may have said that poorly.  What I meant to say is that "accusations" have been elevated to a much higher level than in the past, at the expense of an accused's right to be considered innocent until proven guilty.  That societal change has led to organizations like the NCAA and individual universities having to institute rules that, in part, are good in that they require thorough investigations, and, in part, bad because they don't allow for common sense to prevail when a situation should be resolved quickly.

[cheeseman]

46 minutes ago, Tilkowsky said:

Why do the players have to be allowed to play or shown the door?

Is it because you just want them to play and don't care what they have done?

Well actually there really is only 2 net results - play or not play.  If they are not going to be allowed to play then they should be told that and let everyone move on.  If they are going to be able to play then let them play.  To allow them to sit in limbo with no closure is not good for them or the school.  By the way, I never took a position on whether they should play or not so anything more assigned to my post is all on you.

[Tilkowsky]

28 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

Well actually there really is only 2 net results - play or not play.  If they are not going to be allowed to play then they should be told that and let everyone move on.  If they are going to be able to play then let them play.  To allow them to sit in limbo with no closure is not good for them or the school.  By the way, I never took a position on whether they should play or not so anything more assigned to my post is all on you.

I agree with you there are two options. They will either be allowed to play or not.

I disagree with you in that the investigation may or may not be over.

This is not an episode of Law and Order where the bad guy is caught in an hour.

The wheels of justice grind SLOWLY.

Honestly for good reason. When investigations are rushed I would think that things are missed.

The accused I would think would want every stone unturned because this possibly could affect the rest of their lives depending on how this goes.

Just as the accusers want every opportunity for justice - they don't want this rushed through just so some basketball players can get back to their team so their fans can be happy.

Again may I suggest some patience.

 

 

[NH]

To Pistol’s point, the only things I can see as reasonable complaints based on what we know are a lack of transparency (though this is tricky given sensitive information) and the lack of expediency regarding the process.

Hopefully I’m not just restating the obvious there. 

[juniorbill76]

2 minutes ago, NH said:

Hopefully I’m not just restating the obvious there. 

That applies to most of the last 70 pages.

[David King]

38 minutes ago, juniorbill76 said:

That applies to most of the last 70 pages.

+1

[Clock_Tower]

14 hours ago, NH said:

Excuse me? Who has been scapegoated in this scenario? The school received allegations against three of its students and is investigating? I don’t see any scapegoat, even if we can agree that the process of investigation itself has dragged on too long.

Additionally, are you suggesting that the broader issue with college sexual assaults is that young women are engaging in “sexually risky behavior” because they’re “attracted to alpha males”? If so, that’s a sickening take. 

 

NH.

Not sure this is true.  SLU investigated Situation 1 with their Kangaroo Court in order to enforce their own stupid student code of conduct rules.  This time, apparently SLU and the local police investigated this matter (as they would do with regard to any SLU student (non-student athletes) but the scapegoat here may be the additional investigation conducted by the federal Title IX people.  I don't recall a Title IX investigation with Situation 1 and this additional investigation sure seems like a double (and much higher) standard to me. 

Again, I have to believe that there has been a prior incident of drunk SLU students, who are non-athletes, who have had consensual sex and then one of the two posted intimate pictures or video tape of the same without the other's prior consent.  I also have to believe that such conduct (and I am not condoning the same) occurs every week on every campus across America and does not result in federal investigations.

[slu72 fan]

7 hours ago, Clock_Tower said:

NH.

Not sure this is true.  SLU investigated Situation 1 with their Kangaroo Court in order to enforce their own stupid student code of conduct rules.  This time, apparently SLU and the local police investigated this matter (as they would do with regard to any SLU student (non-student athletes) but the scapegoat here may be the additional investigation conducted by the federal Title IX people.  I don't recall a Title IX investigation with Situation 1 and this additional investigation sure seems like a double (and much higher) standard to me. 

Again, I have to believe that there has been a prior incident of drunk SLU students, who are non-athletes, who have had consensual sex and then one of the two posted intimate pictures or video tape of the same without the other's prior consent.  I also have to believe that such conduct (and I am not condoning the same) occurs every week on every campus across America and does not result in federal investigations.

I think they do, when the women go to the hospital and claim they’ve been raped. 

[Clock_Tower]

4 minutes ago, slu72 fan said:

I think they do, when the women go to the hospital and claim they’ve been raped. 

Rape is state law crime punishable by our local prosecutors.  Why is a federal investigation being launched for a state law rape incident?  If the girls were raped as you suggest, then file criminal charges against them just like they would against any other person or student.  

Instead, colleges historically favored male athletes over female athletes prompting federal legislation directing colleges on how to run their athletic programs to create equal opportunity for female athletes but suggest turning state law crimes into federal punishment or adding a federal investigation to male athletes only is not the intent of Title IX and is another example of federal law and its interpretation run wild.

[Tilkowsky]

8 hours ago, Clock_Tower said:

NH.

Not sure this is true.  SLU investigated Situation 1 with their Kangaroo Court in order to enforce their own stupid student code of conduct rules.  This time, apparently SLU and the local police investigated this matter (as they would do with regard to any SLU student (non-student athletes) but the scapegoat here may be the additional investigation conducted by the federal Title IX people.  I don't recall a Title IX investigation with Situation 1 and this additional investigation sure seems like a double (and much higher) standard to me. 

Again, I have to believe that there has been a prior incident of drunk SLU students, who are non-athletes, who have had consensual sex and then one of the two posted intimate pictures or video tape of the same without the other's prior consent.  I also have to believe that such conduct (and I am not condoning the same) occurs every week on every campus across America and does not result in federal investigations.

Stupid code of conduct rules?

I assume you don't have daughter.

You know this  incident has occurred on SLU's campus before how?

If it were your daughter would you feel the same way?

Just a guess but the federal investigation might have something to do with the posting online.

You just want the players to play, correct? No matter what they did.

Do you know whose fault this is? The players. You need to blame them.

They are the ones who put themselves in this position.

Why is nobody blaming them?

[CBFan]

17 minutes ago, Tilkowsky said:

Stupid code of conduct rules?

I assume you don't have daughter.

You know this  incident has occurred on SLU's campus before how?

If it were your daughter would you feel the same way?

Just a guess but the federal investigation might have something to do with the posting online.

You just want the players to play, correct? No matter what they did.

Do you know whose fault this is? The players. You need to blame them.

They are the ones who put themselves in this position.

Why is nobody blaming them?

Just stop it you stupid troll go back to soccer where you have some knowledge and stop the BS questions and comments of one the of the best posters on this site.

I have read many of Clock Towers posts and your smart A$$ questions and comments to Clock Tower should be removed.

You pretend to take some kind of moral high ground only to troll.

I have two grand daughters so based on your non-sense spewed at Clock Tower I know what I am talking about.

Clock Tower has never ever stated that our basketball program should win at any cost meaning ignoring players bad behavior.

There are posters on this site that do not care and want to win at any cost but that is the minority of fans and posters.

I am not an alum but I has always liked the program because it is true student athletes and the program has been about win the right way.

Other posters please troll this punk out of existence.

[Tilkowsky]

7 minutes ago, CBFan said:

Just stop it you stupid troll go back to soccer where you have some knowledge and stop the BS questions and comments of one the of the best posters on this site.

I have read many of Clock Towers posts and your smart A$$ questions and comments to Clock Tower should be removed.

You pretend to take some kind of moral high ground only to troll.

I have two grand daughters so based on your non-sense spewed at Clock Tower I know what I am talking about.

Clock Tower has never ever stated that our basketball program should win at any cost meaning ignoring players bad behavior.

There are posters on this site that do not care and want to win at any cost but that is the minority of fans and posters.

I am not an alum but I has always liked the program because it is true student athletes and the program has been about win the right way.

Other posters please troll this punk out of existence.

I question his motives when he says that code of conduct rules are stupid.

You should question that too.

[slu72 fan]

1 hour ago, Clock_Tower said:

Rape is state law crime punishable by our local prosecutors.  Why is a federal investigation being launched for a state law rape incident?  If the girls were raped as you suggest, then file criminal charges against them just like they would against any other person or student.  

Instead, colleges historically favored male athletes over female athletes prompting federal legislation directing colleges on how to run their athletic programs to create equal opportunity for female athletes but suggest turning state law crimes into federal punishment or adding a federal investigation to male athletes only is not the intent of Title IX and is another example of federal law and its interpretation run wild.

I don't disagree, but Title IX is a law and SLU is doing what they need to do. Whether people on this board, that have very few, if any, of the facts, like it.

I was at the game last night and frustrated, like many others, that our team was playing with only half a deck. But, for some to think that the Administration wanted this situation, or should deal with it differently, are uninformed. This probably has a couple of weeks to play out, so we all better calm down, and hope for the best for everyone.

[Tilkowsky]

My suggestion. Assume the players in question aren't going to play at all this year.

If they come back that is a bonus.

If they don't, then you aren't disappointed.

[HoosierPal]

7 minutes ago, slu72 fan said:

I don't disagree, but Title IX is a law and SLU is doing what they need to do. Whether people on this board, that have very few, if any, of the facts, like it.

I was at the game last night and frustrated, like many others, that our team was playing with only half a deck. But, for some to think that the Administration wanted this situation, or should deal with it differently, are uninformed. This probably has a couple of weeks to play out, so we all better calm down, and hope for the best for everyone.

Good post.  I already used up my 'reaction quota' this morning. 

[chillinthemost]

#FirePestello

[slufan13]

My criticisms of how it has been handled are summarized below:

- Pestello dropping a bomb of an email about the situation and then complete and total silence ever since both with students, fans, and media. I again think it was the right approach initially but as someone said in another thread, it's become clunky and frustrating especially as the 60 day window has passed. It's a turn-off to the media which is the last thing we should be doing.

- The players have been allowed to practice/travel with the team but are not even allowed in the arena for games. If there was the potential of serious criminal activity, I don't see this being allowed. Maybe you at least say the players violated team rules or something like that.

I'm not sure there's a ton they could have done differently and it's not an easy situation to handle. I think it's unfair to blame anyone (SLU, the players, the women) since we don't know all the details. I wish the players hadn't even put themselves into the situation but at the same time, this could be as simple as having sex with a female and I'm not going to criticize the players for doing that.

[billiken_roy]

10 minutes ago, Tilkowsky said:

My suggestion. Assume the players in question aren't going to play at all this year.

If they come back that is a bonus.

If they don't, then you aren't disappointed.

we already are disappointed.  basically because of playing this out we are stuck with 2 of the crewsplatt having to come through to succeed.   i.e. we arent succeeding.   

i do agree with you a large if not all of the blame should be on the players that put themselves in this position when i feel very sure that the team was lectured from day one about this exact situation happening, but at what point does it become detrimental to the entire program to continue on as is.   i would bet the administration took notice of the horrible attendance last night.   one of the worst likely since moving to chaifetz arena.  (dont feed me box score attendance either.   i was there and could see we didnt likely have even 3k in the building)  i cant help wondering if the fan base and potential fans are already turning on the program.   not only not winning embroiled in this stupid situation.   at this point doing nothing and saying nothing cant be positive.   

walking to my car last night who wasnt talking about the missing players and trying to figure out what the hell is going on.   rumors are rampart.   speculation is typically for the worst.  and those furthest away from the program just assume players are guilty.   ford is a GD saint for dealing with this and not complaining in public one iota.  but as someone noted yesterday, sure makes me wonder what ford is thinking about adminstrative support of his efforts the longer this drags on.   

[jimbofive]

1 minute ago, slufan13 said:

My criticisms of how it has been handled are summarized below:

- Pestello dropping a bomb of an email about the situation and then complete and total silence ever since both with students, fans, and media. I again think it was the right approach initially but as someone said in another thread, it's become clunky and frustrating especially as the 60 day window has passed. It's a turn-off to the media which is the last thing we should be doing.

- The players have been allowed to practice/travel with the team but are not even allowed in the arena for games. If there was the potential of serious criminal activity, I don't see this being allowed. Maybe you at least say the players violated team rules or something like that.

I'm not sure there's a ton they could have done differently and it's not an easy situation to handle. I think it's unfair to blame anyone (SLU, the players, the women) since we don't know all the details. I wish the players hadn't even put themselves into the situation but at the same time, this could be as simple as having sex with a female and I'm not going to criticize the players for doing that.

Ehhh, I blame the school for ancient rules.  I blame the players and the girls for poor judgment, but more the players, I suppose.  And I DEFINITELY blame the girls for crying rape when the police immediately dismissed their claims.  It goes both ways.  If you get filmed nonconsensually performing an illicit act consensually, and then you're all butthurt later, then I think you should have been a better judge of character.

 

This is 2017.  People have phones.  And they looooove sharing good news.  Cry me a river.

 

If it comes back that the players are being criminally prosecuted for rape, you'll hear my tune change entirely.  But until then... the glove don't fit.

[Clock_Tower]

36 minutes ago, Tilkowsky said:

I question his motives when he says that code of conduct rules are stupid.

You should question that too.

Troll. 

Next time when you lack knowledge, ask others and find out first. I call SLU Code of Conduct Rules that the accused cannot have an attorney, that parents and others are restricted from attending, that the accuser need not testify or be present and have no right to cross exam, that presumptions of guilt are the base and the accused must prove innocence, that expulsion and right to live on campus are at stake so SLU Rules did allow a second year law school student (Iwas a 2L myself years ago) to be present and represent the accused to be stupid. Apparently you are again talking out of your ass w no knowledge or you believe these rules are not stupid and you are defending them. 

And yes, I do have a daughter and if the boys should be punished, then expel them immediately. Also charge them with rape now.

As to Title IX, this law has been around for 40 years or so but not the these recent investigating committees. Existing rules are being withdrawn and replaced this year  . BTW where was the Title IX Committee for Situation 1?

 

 

[slufan13]

At this point I'm just expecting the players to be back after the first semester and I doubt we get a detailed explanation (right or wrong I don't really know or care). I just hope that the tank isn't completely empty and we don't have too many players injured by then.

[NextYearBill]

14 minutes ago, jimbofive said:

Ehhh, I blame the school for ancient rules.  I blame the players and the girls for poor judgment, but more the players, I suppose.  And I DEFINITELY blame the girls for crying rape when the police immediately dismissed their claims.  It goes both ways.  If you get filmed nonconsensually performing an illicit act consensually, and then you're all butthurt later, then I think you should have been a better judge of character.

 

This is 2017.  People have phones.  And they looooove sharing good news.  Cry me a river.

 

If it comes back that the players are being criminally prosecuted for rape, you'll hear my tune change entirely.  But until then... the glove don't fit.

*Good Post (I need my post reaction limit increased!!!! not going to ask again)

[Tilkowsky]

15 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

Troll. 

Next time when you lack knowledge, ask others and find out first. I call SLU Code of Conduct Rules that the accused cannot have an attorney, that parents and others are restricted from attending, that the accuser need not testify or be present and have no right to cross exam, that presumptions of guilt are the base and the accused must prove innocence, that expulsion and right to live on campus are at stake so SLU Rules did allow a second year law school student (Iwas a 2L myself years ago) to be present and represent the accused to be stupid. Apparently you are again talking out of your ass w no knowledge or you believe these rules are not stupid and you are defending them. 

And yes, I do have a daughter and if the boys should be punished, then expel them immediately. Also charge them with rape now.

As to Title IX, this law has been around for 40 years or so but not the these recent investigating committees. Existing rules are being withdrawn and replaced this year  . BTW where was the Title IX Committee for Situation 1?

 

 

You never said that in your original post.

I believed you called the rules stupid. You never explained why.

Isnt that correct?

[Tilkowsky]

22 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

we already are disappointed.  basically because of playing this out we are stuck with 2 of the crewsplatt having to come through to succeed.   i.e. we arent succeeding.   

i do agree with you a large if not all of the blame should be on the players that put themselves in this position when i feel very sure that the team was lectured from day one about this exact situation happening, but at what point does it become detrimental to the entire program to continue on as is.   i would bet the administration took notice of the horrible attendance last night.   one of the worst likely since moving to chaifetz arena.  (dont feed me box score attendance either.   i was there and could see we didnt likely have even 3k in the building)  i cant help wondering if the fan base and potential fans are already turning on the program.   not only not winning embroiled in this stupid situation.   at this point doing nothing and saying nothing cant be positive.   

walking to my car last night who wasnt talking about the missing players and trying to figure out what the hell is going on.   rumors are rampart.   speculation is typically for the worst.  and those furthest away from the program just assume players are guilty.   ford is a GD saint for dealing with this and not complaining in public one iota.  but as someone noted yesterday, sure makes me wonder what ford is thinking about adminstrative support of his efforts the longer this drags on.   

My assumption is that SLU is getting legal advice not to say anything.

What do you want them to do? Allow the players back just to satisfy fans? So attendance is better?

If the players are cleared and come back hopefully those fans will as well.

If the players aren't cleared then keeping the players out of games will obviously have been a good decision.

 

 

[billiken_roy]

how about just letting us in on something.  give us hope or give us a reason to believe there is a final solution quickly coming.   the fact these kids are traveling with the team, still practicing, not expelled, not in jail tells us that there is no criminal investigation and it isnt a team rules thing.   i.e. this is all on title iX.   as clock said, sure its the rule, but it is very apparent it is a stupid rule considering the pain of this thing dragging out   

Why 60 days?   why in the world would this take 60 days?  to investigate?   interview players and girls.  that takes 60 days?   to review the evidence?   i could read the tolkien books 4 or 5 times in 60 days.   are those making the decision so stupid they cant read the interviews or watch the interview tapes and make a decision in 60 days?   

just put the fan base out of the misery of waiting if you have to error on the side of safe, then expel the kids and let's move on.   i agree the players made bad decisions.   but that doesnt make it right at this point to continue to torture us fans.    we think we finally have a light at the end of the tunnel and then this.  come on slu do the right thing for the billiken fandom and make a decision.