Very Interesting...

[cheeseman]

2 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

dreams cost money.   and for this dream it will be a lot.   considering the trouble everytime we have a fund raising appeal to move up (typically for facilites) we might have to just keep dreaming.   i just dont think the Billikens have enough big boosters to make some of these dreams happen.   there is only so much the few that have stepped up significantly can do.  

You are looking for barriers and I understand why you lean that way but striving for more s how you get more. 

[wgstl]

The new "20 win" mark needs to be 23.  Because 24 or more gets you in more times not than not, and 23 is still a successful year because you were "this close".

Ford has won 23 games 3 times. Of those 3 times, this is how close we were.

18-19: 23 wins, NCAA appearance (auto).

19-20: 23 wins, coin toss of an at large big with just 1 more win, very good chance with 2 A10T wins

21-22: 23 wins, 2 A10T wins might have put us in. 

22-23: 20 Wins - 3 A10T wins puts us in obviously as an auto. - switch SIUe, Umass, and Richmond, we may have only needed to win 2 for an at large. 

 

Also when I say A10 wins needs, could obviously just switch out "bad" losses instead.

[billiken_roy]

28 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

You are looking for barriers and I understand why you lean that way but striving for more s how you get more. 

well show me the money.   detail exactly how we fire ford, hire a big name coach that is almost a guarantee to take us to the next level and get in the NiL game.   then please list the boosters and how much they will contribute to make that all happen.   if you think slu just bucks up, you need to research the track record of the BoT.   they arent going to pay what the bill will be for those three things to happen imo.  

so yes there is a barrier.   i just asked you to explain to everyone how we can get past it.   you do that you not only help all of the rest of us get completely on your side but also i guess you would help our administration make this decision.   i am pretty sure that is our administrations "barrier" as well.  so you would be doing the entire billiken world a big favor.  thanks so much for your service.

[JMM28]

Just now, billiken_roy said:

well show me the money.   detail exactly how we fire ford, hire a big name coach that is almost a guarantee to take us to the next level and get in the NiL game.   then please list the boosters and how much they will contribute to make that all happen.   if you think slu just bucks up, you need to research the track record of the BoT.   they arent going to pay what the bill will be for those three things to happen imo.  

so yes there is a barrier.   i just asked you to explain to everyone how we can get past it.   you do that you not only help all of the rest of us get completely on your side but also i guess you would help our administration make this decision.   i am pretty sure that is our administrations "barrier" as well.  so you would be doing the entire billiken world a big favor.  thanks so much for your service.

They fire Ford. Pay his buyout at the terms of his contract. 

They sign a contract with a new coach for less than Ford is currently making. 

Boosters contribute. 

This is just regular business in D1 athletics. They did the same thing with the Crews/Ford transition. 

[Billiken Rich]

44 minutes ago, wgstl said:

This also would explain why we are mid, this exact comment.  Joking or not, you also seem to be someone who doesn't want to go up a level, and by level I don't mean conference, I mean as a program. Content. Its ok to be, Im just not that type of person, I think we can do better. 

I'm not content.  I'm not happy.  I do want our program to succeed.  I'm not going to whine about our coach since he's here for the medium term and is a terrific recruiter.  I'm not going to whine and say I have THE answer to "level up" the program.  I'm also not going to whine about all the things we need to do to get into the Big East (with other people's money.)  I'd love it if all the answers were so bloody simple and I could personally write a check to the Big East to secure our entry. 

Five parts hopium and two parts unobtainium, shake well and we are in the Big East.  That's levelling up!  Same recipe for the NFL with a splash more unobtainium and served on a bed  of self-loathing.

We can be competitive out of the A10 and hopefully with Travis as our coach, since he's here for a while........Does that statement mean I don't want to level up? No......just no.....

[brianstl]

42 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

dreams cost money.   and for this dream it will be a lot.   considering the trouble everytime we have a fund raising appeal to move up (typically for facilites) we might have to just keep dreaming.   i just dont think the Billikens have enough big boosters to make some of these dreams happen.   there is only so much the few that have stepped up significantly can do.  

Dreams cost money, but SLU isn't broke and has continually proved that they will spend the money.  The have have more expensive and better on campus basketball facilities than several Big East schools and SLU is only adding to that.  With the Champions Center our on campus facilities will take a backseat to no non football schools.  We can talk about trouble raising money for those facilities, but they got done here while not getting done at some of the programs we aspire to be. SLU has the fourth  largest endowment of any Catholic University and ranks second in Catholic Universities without D1 football programs only to Georgetown.  

Money isn't a problem for SLU.  A sometimes lacking commitment to excellence, not spending that money in the most efficient ways and often being behind the curve because the athletic program and the school are way too averse to any risk has been the problem. 

[wgstl]

2 minutes ago, Billiken Rich said:

I'm not content.  I'm not happy.  I do want our program to succeed.  I'm not going to whine about our coach since he's here for the medium term and is a terrific recruiter. 

 

Was* He hasn't done well on recruiting in a few years now. Parker may be a good find.  But he went a few years with really nothing. 

[Billiken Rich]

5 minutes ago, wgstl said:

Was* He hasn't done well on recruiting in a few years now. Parker may be a good find.  But he went a few years with really nothing. 

We'll see after this year.  It's hard to get great players to come in with little playing time to offer..........

Vice and Medley were well regarded......

[wgstl]

1 minute ago, Billiken Rich said:

We'll see after this year.  It's hard to get great players to come in with little playing time to offer..........

For the most part, yes you're right.  

[billiken_roy]

11 minutes ago, JMM28 said:

They fire Ford. Pay his buyout at the terms of his contract. 

They sign a contract with a new coach for less than Ford is currently making. 

Boosters contribute. 

This is just regular business in D1 athletics. They did the same thing with the Crews/Ford transition. 

ok, so you are going to pay 8 figures to get rid of ford, then hire a coach making far less.   and that guarantees we get to the next level?   just curious if you raise unicorns in your backyard and whether you routinely wear your wizards hat and carry a magic wand at all times?

[BANGheGOTit]

33 minutes ago, wgstl said:

The new "20 win" mark needs to be 23.  Because 24 or more gets you in more times not than not, and 23 is still a successful year because you were "this close".

Ford has won 23 games 3 times. Of those 3 times, this is how close we were.

18-19: 23 wins, NCAA appearance (auto).

19-20: 23 wins, coin toss of an at large big with just 1 more win, very good chance with 2 A10T wins

21-22: 23 wins, 2 A10T wins might have put us in. 

22-23: 20 Wins - 3 A10T wins puts us in obviously as an auto. - switch SIUe, Umass, and Richmond, we may have only needed to win 2 for an at large. 

 

Also when I say A10 wins needs, could obviously just switch out "bad" losses instead.

23 wins is probably cutting it too close in a Mid-Major unless you’re one of the top 2 or 3.  If you’re a low level Mid-Major you could probably have 28 wins and still be a bubble team.  The WCC has two top 20 type teams and likely only one at-large depending on what happens in the conference tournament. The A10 could possibly have a team like Fordham win 25 or 26 games and not make the tournament unless they win the Conference tournament.  That 20 win bar is sooo in the past unless you are a power five school and even then you have to have enough good wins/avoid horrible losses, and have the right results.  Finishing “tied for second” doesn’t do much in a one bid league.  In 7 seasons there are no wins over a ranked team.  The opportunity only presents itself a few times each year, but there have been opportunities to make noise in a national level and it’s resulted in failure each time.  The BE:  “let’s take a look at SLU”, “well they had one miracle run a few years ago, they typically finish between 4th-6th in a Mid-Major, but they are usually on the bubble for the NIT”. “Then we have team 2 that has been to the tournament 4 times in the past 6 seasons, they have a comparable arena, in a metropolitan area that is larger than STL”…who do you think they are going to accept??

[TheChosenOne]

I am not in the fire Ford group and find the discussion largely annoying. However, I do not expect the fans who are to lay out their financial plan for making that happen. We are fans and many of us have zero interest (or the ability to) in giving the program money, but that doesn't mean we can't have opinions on the direction of the program. I am 100% comfortable in saying I am not an insider, have no interest in being an insider, have no interest in giving any % of my income to the athletic department, yet due to my sickness for the sport of basketball know a heck of a lot more about college hoops than the BSDs who come on here and tell folks to fall in line. SLU is a nice little program, but I see some fans want more than that. It is somewhat interesting those who do give $ aren't more in that mode. I personally don't care enough at this point, but it is interesting to read the back and forth. Now, lets get some wins this weekend!

[JMM28]

14 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

ok, so you are going to pay 8 figures to get rid of ford, then hire a coach making far less.   and that guarantees we get to the next level?   just curious if you raise unicorns in your backyard and whether you routinely wear your wizards hat and carry a magic wand at all times?

I didn't say far less. But you're not hiring someone at 2.4 million. It would be great if that was the budget, but there aren't many candidates out there worth paying that. If you can get a Chris Mack type - probably worth it. 

Ford far outpaces the A10 coaching salary. Bonaventure is paying Schmidt like 1.2 mill. Frank Martin was a big hire and he is around 1.7. Rhoades at VCU is at 1.6. Anthony Grant is around 1.8. SLU is paying Ford a Grant plus a Keith Urgo. And getting Kim English. 

The only thing guaranteed in life is death, taxes, and Travis Ford underachieving. 

[TheA_Bomb]

My not so bold prediction: Ford is going to stay.  He'll get some portal players and other recruits.  We'll convince ourselves these guys will be good.  He'll win 18-19 games next year and be 4th or 5th in A10.  He'll be fired. 

I'm hopeful a Mack, Marshall or Kelsey is available next year.   If not I'll just be happy to try something else but reserve the right to complain as a fan.

[wgstl]

15 minutes ago, BANGheGOTit said:

23 wins is probably cutting it too close in a Mid-Major unless you’re one of the top 2 or 3.  If you’re a low level Mid-Major you could probably have 28 wins and still be a bubble team.  The WCC has two top 20 type teams and likely only one at-large depending on what happens in the conference tournament. The A10 could possibly have a team like Fordham win 25 or 26 games and not make the tournament unless they win the Conference tournament.  That 20 win bar is sooo in the past unless you are a power five school and even then you have to have enough good wins/avoid horrible losses, and have the right results.  Finishing “tied for second” doesn’t do much in a one bid league.  In 7 seasons there are no wins over a ranked team.  The opportunity only presents itself a few times each year, but there have been opportunities to make noise in a national level and it’s resulted in failure each time.  The BE:  “let’s take a look at SLU”, “well they had one miracle run a few years ago, they typically finish between 4th-6th in a Mid-Major, but they are usually on the bubble for the NIT”. “Then we have team 2 that has been to the tournament 4 times in the past 6 seasons, they have a comparable arena, in a metropolitan area that is larger than STL”…who do you think they are going to accept??

Fordham isn't a good example foe my bar because they wont play anyone in OOC.  If we keep playing the OOC we have over the last 4 years, 24 wins should get you in more times than not.  We don't have to make it every year, I'm not a unrealistic fan, but 24 wins will get you in a good amount of times.  Thats why 23 wins is the bench mark. 

[wgstl]

15 minutes ago, TheChosenOne said:

I am not in the fire Ford group and find the discussion largely annoying. However, I do not expect the fans who are to lay out their financial plan for making that happen. We are fans and many of us have zero interest (or the ability to) in giving the program money, but that doesn't mean we can't have opinions on the direction of the program. I am 100% comfortable in saying I am not an insider, have no interest in being an insider, have no interest in giving any % of my income to the athletic department, yet due to my sickness for the sport of basketball know a heck of a lot more about college hoops than the BSDs who come on here and tell folks to fall in line. SLU is a nice little program, but I see some fans want more than that. It is somewhat interesting those who do give $ aren't more in that mode. I personally don't care enough at this point, but it is interesting to read the back and forth. Now, lets get some wins this weekend!

Good post.  My question to you, since this is asked a lot(used to be)if your investment (not monetarily) is lower, would you rather be in the MVC?  If it was me, I'd say yes.  Might as well play close to home all the time, and still get 20+ wins. 

[billiken_roy]

42 minutes ago, JMM28 said:

They fire Ford. Pay his buyout at the terms of his contract. 

They sign a contract with a new coach for less than Ford is currently making. 

Boosters contribute. 

This is just regular business in D1 athletics. They did the same thing with the Crews/Ford transition. 

if i remember correctly we got lucky on the ford original hire because ok state was paying the full boat for like 3 years we paid a very minimum salary until the buyout was done.   i do not recall crews giving a retirement deal and taking less than his entitled buyout.  if he did that was stupid on his part imo.

[billiken_roy]

11 minutes ago, TheA_Bomb said:

I'm hopeful a Mack, Marshall or Kelsey is available next year.   If not I'll just be happy to try something else but reserve the right to complain as a fan.

whenever the price becomes affordable, and we still want to make the move, it never fails that someone of  high caliber is always available.   that is annual happening.  

[BANGheGOTit]

5 minutes ago, wgstl said:

Fordham isn't a good example foe my bar because they wont play anyone in OOC.  If we keep playing the OOC we have over the last 4 years, 24 wins should get you in more times than not.  We don't have to make it every year, I'm not a unrealistic fan, but 24 wins will get you in a good amount of times.  Thats why 23 wins is the bench mark. 

Fair enough, but I’d still like to not have the angst on Selection Sunday!  On another note, I’m just curious as to why people who have the ability to write a check to the AD are seemingly content with these results, or afraid to make a change…or want a guarantee in a new coach?? Did they make their investments with a “no fail” guarantee?  I would think the state of the program is stable enough to avoid a colossal hire (it happens I know… see Louisville).  Some of these same people want or expect a Big East invite at some point!  WHY would the BE want a program that doesn’t raise the level of their conference?

[Dr. Holly Hills]

Did someone say Hargrove and Thames are coming back?  Nice..

[BIG BILL FAN]

2 hours ago, billikenblue said:

Agreed but I would take it a step forward . He also fails to recognize that the talent he assembled is better at a fast pace and either due to his lack of using the bench properly - they are gassed later in games or just him and his approach we stop doing what we are best at. I have friends throughout the A10 and after we play them they all say you were on a roll then you totally slow down .
“What’s up with that ?”  I can’t respond with why because it makes no sense and that is the pattern of Travis and his coaching. 

 

 

 

 

I know it’s a popular narrative to say the Billikens play a slow paced game but the facts don’t bare it out. SLU is 34th in the nation and first in the A10 in fast break points…

https://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-men/d1/current/team/1285

[TheChosenOne]

37 minutes ago, wgstl said:

Good post.  My question to you, since this is asked a lot(used to be)if your investment (not monetarily) is lower, would you rather be in the MVC?  If it was me, I'd say yes.  Might as well play close to home all the time, and still get 20+ wins. 

I still paid about $1k a ticket x 2 for season tickets and went to Dayton to see the Billikens (DC last spring for the tournament), so I’m a huge fan. I’m just in no way interested in giving beyond that to the program or athletic department just like I’d have no interest in handing the Taylor family a check to use for the soccer squad beyond the financial support that is a derivative of supporting them as a fan. I am a college basketball nut and I’d have much less interest in us playing in the Valley as it currently stands as I have no interest in watching any of those programs. The Big East is my dream, but I’m not interested in giving any more than I do as a fan to make that possibly happen. Not my responsibility. My interests are in watching the best teams and players play and the Valley is not that (nor is the Atlantic 10, but the Big East isn’t far off). But 10 months from now I still plan on celebrating or complaining about the program on here with the rest of you sickos! Let’s just win the next three and bring us all back together!

[Littlebill]

2 hours ago, Schasz said:

Like your post and agree with many of your points. Besides Traore we also lost the other smaller athlete (sorry can't remember his name) too. He would also have contributed this year too. Ford has been awful in teaching the super athletic players how to play college hoops. It's one thing to recruit potential gems but an entirely different thing to coach them up. That is a Huge failure in Ford as a HC. 

The "smaller athlete" (names are probably tough to keep straight for the small, tiny, second team you're having to keep track of) is Markhi Strickland. Tough name to remember, right? Markhi is at a juco who finished 5-25 this season. Real miss by Ford! You just don't know ball, but I imagine trying to keep track of this afterthought that is essentially a D2 farm system must be tough!

 

[TheChosenOne]

22 minutes ago, BIG BILL FAN said:

I know it’s a popular narrative to say the Billikens play a slow paced game but the facts don’t bare it out. SLU is 34th in the nation and first in the A10 in fast break points…

https://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-men/d1/current/team/1285

88th in adjusted tempo which I think is faster than we have typically played, but it’s not like we are a fast paced team. We have tended to play in the half court far too regularly in conference games.

[Littlebill]

20 minutes ago, BIG BILL FAN said:

I know it’s a popular narrative to say the Billikens play a slow paced game but the facts don’t bare it out. SLU is 34th in the nation and first in the A10 in fast break points…

https://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-men/d1/current/team/1285

https://www.prodigygame.com/main-en/blog/improve-reading-comprehension/