Very Interesting...

[dennis_w]

13 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

You make a fair point but catching lightening in a bottle does not address the long term systemic issues. 

as my dad would say "some will ***** if they are hung with a new rope"

[cheeseman]

12 minutes ago, dennis_w said:

as my dad would say "some will ***** if they are hung with a new rope"

And some would sit in a pile of **** rather than make the effort to stand up because after all we should be content with where we are.  

[dennis_w]

Just now, cheeseman said:

And some sit in a pile of **** rather than make the effort to stand up because after all we should be content with where we are.  

he also told me that stupid cannot be fixed, he was right i waste my time

[billiken_roy]

58 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

We are in A10 because people in power did not aspire to be better. I guess Creighton should have been happy in the MVC. When you have no goals you never accomplish anything great. This has been the age old problem we have the Billikens fan base is split - one wants to be the Zags of the Midwest and the other wants to just be.  Where is the American Exceptionalism we are supposed to be known for. The real question is why can’t we be better?  As far as other teams using what is said on the board against us - well you reap what you sow. As FDR said the only thing we have to fear is fear itself. 

this is incorrect.   the want was always the big east, but situations always seemed to get in the way at the wrong time.   now the opportunity isnt there and slu has no leverage.  timing is everything. 

[billiken_roy]

40 minutes ago, JMM28 said:

 "we can't afford to fire Ford because what if we can't get another mediocre coach!" suffers from low expectations. 

do you know the cost of the buyout and the cost of another coach equal or greater than what ford is and what the expectation of annual donations for NiL?   i do not.  so any information you could pass on would sure make it a lot easier to side with the immediate demands so many are throwing out there.  

myself, i believe the number of zeroes involved to handle all three aspects that will require big booster assistance is far greater than what we have in boosters.   i dont know that for sure but it is the only reasonable explanation.    but please if you do know the answers please share them with all of us because i dont disagree with your questioning of ford's potential to get us to another level.  

[wgstl]

6 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

this is incorrect.   the want was always the big east, but situations always seemed to get in the way at the wrong time.   now the opportunity isnt there and slu has no leverage.  timing is everything. 

So firing Ford, and hiring a big name coach who can get us winning would not help our chances?  Even though at some point they will expand the BE?  Sitting on our arse and being content is why. And we're doing that right now.  Always trying to better your program is something they want to see. 

[Crewsorlose]

46 minutes ago, johnbj14 said:

Sure, firing a coach is a risky move, and the AD has pretty much assured they aren’t taking on that risk this year. I truly hope Travis wins here. As others have said he is a good ambassador for the program, and the personal trauma he’s had here makes me root for him even harder. However, he needs to have answers for how a season like this isn’t going to happen again. They’ve regressed from a top 75 team to one just outside the top 100. That’s really concerning for a team that he said could be his best ever. I’m pretty confident SLU will never bottom out under Travis. I’m not confident we’ll ever become a consistent NCAA Tournament team. Which for what he’s paid should 100% be the expectation. My fear is that instead of taking on risk, the AD and fans will just grow apathetic, and accept that these results of being on the outside looking in are fine. 

Next year should be make or break for Ford. There's a lot to complain about, some things to like, but Ford acts like he can't play certain guys who can play. We're never going to have a great big unless we develop one from within. Lassina Traore was raw, but no doubt he's better than Jake F this year. He averaged 13 and 10 on a decent Long Beach team. All we remember is that he got yelled at for dancing. Is Cisse destined to transfer? Is Zhang destined to transfer in a year because he gets no run because we play a transfer from Arkansas St. 30 mpg so Ford can win 16 instead of 14 games?

Larry Hughes Jr. at the very least gave us a different look this year and showed he could be a disruptive force on defense. Why not play Yuri 30mpg and tell him to turn up the defense? Why not develop LHG? Likewise, why bury Parker game after game? There were 10 games he played less than 10 minutes. Like it or not, Sincere is probably your leading scorer next year. Give him confidence and reps. 

We may stumble into another Javon Bess but the quality of our transfers (I'm not counting JUCO transfers) has been pretty uneven over the last 10-15 years (Pickett, Forrester, D Jones, Rashad Williams, Okoro, Linssen, Tay Weaver, Dion Wiley). The strategy needs to be both/and, but we can't let guys who can clearly be part of winning teams (Traore, D Jacobs) just transfer because Ford buries them. 

Can he build a core to replace the French/Goodwin core of tough, winning players who play a style? We lost the toughness and just replaced it with shooting and fast break offense that was up and down.

[billiken_roy]

Just now, wgstl said:

So firing Ford, and hiring a big name coach who can get us winning would not help our chances?  Even though at some point they will expand the BE?  Sitting out our arse and being content is why. And we're doing that right now

so you have inside information on what the whole ford firing and high level coach hiring will cost?   you have inside information on what the real NiL number needed will be (i believe Troy Robertson number is minimal in what they expect the need will be.   the true NiL money will likely come from pledges from big boosters to the fund or even independent from the victory fund) and you have inside information on what the exit fee from the A-10 will be, the entry fee for the big east will be and how they will share big east ncaa money from tv and tourney?    please provide all so we can see the cash flow of this whole scenario.   thanks in advance.

[billiken_roy]

5 minutes ago, Crewsorlose said:

Next year should be make or break for Ford. There's a lot to complain about, some things to like, but Ford acts like he can't play certain guys who can play. We're never going to have a great big unless we develop one from within. Lassina Traore was raw, but no doubt he's better than Jake F this year. He averaged 13 and 10 on a decent Long Beach team. All we remember is that he got yelled at for dancing. Is Cisse destined to transfer? Is Zhang destined to transfer in a year because he gets no run because we play a transfer from Arkansas St. 30 mpg so Ford can win 16 instead of 14 games?

Larry Hughes Jr. at the very least gave us a different look this year and showed he could be a disruptive force on defense. Why not play Yuri 30mpg and tell him to turn up the defense? Why not develop LHG? Likewise, why bury Parker game after game? There were 10 games he played less than 10 minutes. Like it or not, Sincere is probably your leading scorer next year. Give him confidence and reps. 

We may stumble into another Javon Bess but the quality of our transfers (I'm not counting JUCO transfers) has been pretty uneven over the last 10-15 years (Pickett, Forrester, D Jones, Rashad Williams, Okoro, Linssen, Tay Weaver, Dion Wiley). The strategy needs to be both/and, but we can't let guys who can clearly be part of winning teams (Traore, D Jacobs) just transfer because Ford buries them. 

Can he build a core to replace the French/Goodwin core of tough, winning players who play a style? We lost the toughness and just replaced it with shooting and fast break offense that was up and down.

very good post!   thanks and i cant disagree with anything you wrote. 

[wgstl]

1 minute ago, billiken_roy said:

so you have inside information on what the whole ford firing and high level coach hiring will cost?   you have inside information on what the real NiL number needed will be (i believe Troy Robertson number is minimal in what they expect the need will be.   the true NiL money will likely come from pledges from big boosters to the fund or even independent from the victory fund) and you have inside information on what the exit fee from the A-10 will be, the entry fee for the big east will be and how they will share big east ncaa money from tv and tourney?    please provide all so we can see the cash flow of this whole scenario.   thanks in advance.

This response seems very in-line with why you want to keep Ford.  So many schools figure out ways to settle this, this isn't a first. And many schools are in worse financial situations than SLU or don't have the donors SLU has.   If the Donors and May got together and said this isn't worth paying for, then sure.  Nothing we can do here. As far as we know, that hasn't been the case.  So excuse me to use a message board to discuss a situation we know a little about.  Point is, SLU is in the a10 because they didn't have the success to move up. They currently do not have a plan to be more successful because they are content. Honestly it would be annoying to hear about how we need to keep Ford and also what can we do to be the BE, you cant have both. 

[Billiken Rich]

2 minutes ago, wgstl said:

This response seems very in-line with why you want to keep Ford.  So many schools figure out ways to settle this, this isn't a first. And many schools are in worse financial situations than SLU or don't have the donors SLU has.   If the Donors and May got together and said this isn't worth paying for, then sure.  Nothing we can do here. As far as we know, that hasn't been the case.  So excuse me to use a message board to discuss a situation we know a little about.  Point is, SLU is in the a10 because they didn't have the success to move up. They currently do not have a plan to be more successful because they are content. Honestly it would be annoying to hear about how we need to keep Ford and also what can we do to be the BE, you cant have both. 

I think Saint Louis should build a new football stadium in case the NFL might expand in the future!

[wgstl]

1 minute ago, Billiken Rich said:

I think Saint Louis should build a new football stadium in case the NFL might expand in the future!

This also would explain why we are mid, this exact comment.  Joking or not, you also seem to be someone who doesn't want to go up a level, and by level I don't mean conference, I mean as a program. Content. Its ok to be, Im just not that type of person, I think we can do better. 

[johnbj14]

If SLU wants to be on the shortlist for when the Big East expands, the men’s basketball program will have to take a serious step forward. I’m skeptical that call will ever come, but again, for the resources being spent on this program, including coaching salary, they need better results. 18-22 wins annually is not attractive for a bigger conference, but more importantly, is just a poor ROI. Most importantly, it directly contradicts what the department says publicly about their goals. They want to consistently compete for championships and tournament runs. The current approach isn’t really indicating that is the case for your premier revenue sport. 

[someoneelse]

16 minutes ago, Crewsorlose said:

Next year should be make or break for Ford. There's a lot to complain about, some things to like, but Ford acts like he can't play certain guys who can play. We're never going to have a great big unless we develop one from within. Lassina Traore was raw, but no doubt he's better than Jake F this year. He averaged 13 and 10 on a decent Long Beach team. All we remember is that he got yelled at for dancing. Is Cisse destined to transfer? Is Zhang destined to transfer in a year because he gets no run because we play a transfer from Arkansas St. 30 mpg so Ford can win 16 instead of 14 games?

Larry Hughes Jr. at the very least gave us a different look this year and showed he could be a disruptive force on defense. Why not play Yuri 30mpg and tell him to turn up the defense? Why not develop LHG? Likewise, why bury Parker game after game? There were 10 games he played less than 10 minutes. Like it or not, Sincere is probably your leading scorer next year. Give him confidence and reps. 

We may stumble into another Javon Bess but the quality of our transfers (I'm not counting JUCO transfers) has been pretty uneven over the last 10-15 years (Pickett, Forrester, D Jones, Rashad Williams, Okoro, Linssen, Tay Weaver, Dion Wiley). The strategy needs to be both/and, but we can't let guys who can clearly be part of winning teams (Traore, D Jacobs) just transfer because Ford buries them. 

Can he build a core to replace the French/Goodwin core of tough, winning players who play a style? We lost the toughness and just replaced it with shooting and fast break offense that was up and down.

You make valid points, but I believe this year was the make or break year.  And he didn't make.  If he can't make it with the team he assembled, he may not know how, or be able, to assemble/develop a bubble team.  I'm just asking that we make the NCAA one in three-four years.  Maybe that's too big of an ask.  

 

[WVBilliken]

51 minutes ago, wgstl said:

No. As we've talked about before, even if we win in Brooklyn, that's more luck than anything. Ford and the team blew their chance at proving they are actually a decent team and decent coach. The ship has sailed "on lets just let the season finish out".  Last time this was brought up we had 7 or 8 games left where I was like, fine, that's fair.  Winning the A10T given how the season went and how bad the A10 was is still a failed season to some degree. The best outcome of a failed season, sure. 

 

There's a reason why real teams make the at large, and lucky teams just win the Conf Tourney.  

I would just love to know are people in favor of Ford at least a little frustrated with him?  Based on how it sounds here, those folks would sign another extension today if they could. 

I am a long time Billiken fan, went to SLU in the early 1970's.  So I have seen a lot of bad basketball sprinkled with some good, the Spoonhour years, Majerus years and a few brief highlight years with Grawer and Romar. 

I am not 100% on the Ford bandwagon but I have seen the disruption that occurs when a new coach comes in.  Almost always there is an adjustment period and that means losing seasons.  Some of the coaches just don't work out and then we the fans have to suffer through more lean years.  I admit, with the transfer portal and NIL bucks that may not necessarily happen this time.

Given all this, I am 100% on board with hanging with Ford at least a couple more years.  Like it or not, SLU has had four 20+ win seasons in the last 5, yes sustained success ..... a true rarity for us fans.  And it should be 5 years except for the covid shortened season (2020-21) when the team only played 21 games and ended 14-7.   So yes, I am on board to stick with Ford to see if he can figure out how to step up to the next level of winning, seen only from the Majerus years (yes, those first couple of Crews years were Majerus teams).  This off-season for me, is when Ford must step up.  If he can build another 20 win team for next year, I will think perhaps he is turning the corner as a coach.

[cheeseman]

41 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

this is incorrect.   the want was always the big east, but situations always seemed to get in the way at the wrong time.   now the opportunity isnt there and slu has no leverage.  timing is everything. 

You misread my post. My reference was to that the powers did no dream enough to get into a better conference. I am well aware of the history as you are  

[billikenblue]

15 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

very good post!   thanks and i cant disagree with anything you wrote. 

Agreed but I would take it a step forward . He also fails to recognize that the talent he assembled is better at a fast pace and either due to his lack of using the bench properly - they are gassed later in games or just him and his approach we stop doing what we are best at. I have friends throughout the A10 and after we play them they all say you were on a roll then you totally slow down .
“What’s up with that ?”  I can’t respond with why because it makes no sense and that is the pattern of Travis and his coaching. 

 

 

 

 

[cheeseman]

36 minutes ago, dennis_w said:

he also told me that stupid cannot be fixed, he was right i waste my time

As I 

[TheA_Bomb]

@dennis_w

I understand your point and I see it as logical. Perhaps it's just been bad luck and injuries.

I even understand @BIG BILL FAN he sees criticism as disloyalty. That's just the way some people "fan". 

1 of the hardest things to do is to see yourself.  I see trends at SLU under Ford that he recruits well and rarely wins games of consequence.  These trends are in line with his long history as a head coach.  The team is trending in the wrong direction. 

As to Big East expansion. B12, SEC, B10 and PAC-12 trying to stay viable is about to shake everything up again.  So it's possible the opportunity can be available.  Basketball success would certainly help. 

I'm hopeful they win the A10 go to the DANCE and make a good accounting.

[Cowboy II]

-this 20 win successful season metric made sense years ago when there were less games allowed to be played, the amount of games has been expanded

[Schasz]

15 minutes ago, Crewsorlose said:

Next year should be make or break for Ford. There's a lot to complain about, some things to like, but Ford acts like he can't play certain guys who can play. We're never going to have a great big unless we develop one from within. Lassina Traore was raw, but no doubt he's better than Jake F this year. He averaged 13 and 10 on a decent Long Beach team. All we remember is that he got yelled at for dancing. Is Cisse destined to transfer? Is Zhang destined to transfer in a year because he gets no run because we play a transfer from Arkansas St. 30 mpg so Ford can win 16 instead of 14 games?

Larry Hughes Jr. at the very least gave us a different look this year and showed he could be a disruptive force on defense. Why not play Yuri 30mpg and tell him to turn up the defense? Why not develop LHG? Likewise, why bury Parker game after game? There were 10 games he played less than 10 minutes. Like it or not, Sincere is probably your leading scorer next year. Give him confidence and reps. 

We may stumble into another Javon Bess but the quality of our transfers (I'm not counting JUCO transfers) has been pretty uneven over the last 10-15 years (Pickett, Forrester, D Jones, Rashad Williams, Okoro, Linssen, Tay Weaver, Dion Wiley). The strategy needs to be both/and, but we can't let guys who can clearly be part of winning teams (Traore, D Jacobs) just transfer because Ford buries them. 

Can he build a core to replace the French/Goodwin core of tough, winning players who play a style? We lost the toughness and just replaced it with shooting and fast break offense that was up and down.

Like your post and agree with many of your points. Besides Traore we also lost the other smaller athlete (sorry can't remember his name) too. He would also have contributed this year too. Ford has been awful in teaching the super athletic players how to play college hoops. It's one thing to recruit potential gems but an entirely different thing to coach them up. That is a Huge failure in Ford as a HC. 

I fear that the fringe supporters of SLU hoops won't wait after this year's disappointment. They will not spend their money on SLU hoops. That is on the AD May if he does decide to keep Ford. Lesser crowds at Chaifetz next year is lost revenue for SLU and again that's on AD May if he does stay with Ford.

[wgstl]

4 minutes ago, WVBilliken said:

I am a long time Billiken fan, went to SLU in the early 1970's.  So I have seen a lot of bad basketball sprinkled with some good, the Spoonhour years, Majerus years and a few brief highlight years with Grawer and Romar. 

I am not 100% on the Ford bandwagon but I have seen the disruption that occurs when a new coach comes in.  Almost always there is an adjustment period and that means losing seasons.  Some of the coaches just don't work out and then we the fans have to suffer through more lean years.  I admit, with the transfer portal and NIL bucks that may not necessarily happen this time.

Given all this, I am 100% on board with hanging with Ford at least a couple more years.  Like it or not, SLU has had four 20+ win seasons in the last 5, yes sustained success ..... a true rarity for us fans.  And it should be 5 years except for the covid shortened season (2020-21) when the team only played 21 games and ended 14-7.   So yes, I am on board to stick with Ford to see if he can figure out how to step up to the next level of winning, seen only from the Majerus years (yes, those first couple of Crews years were Majerus teams).  This off-season for me, is when Ford must step up.  If he can build another 20 win team for next year, I will think perhaps he is turning the corner as a coach.

There are certain "goals" or " levels" to judge a season off of.  Winning 20 games without a Tourney is a tick and I mean a tick better than just winning 15 games and being .500.  The only difference is we get to justify more so overpaying a coach by a ton.  For us fans, you cant really tell the different between 20 wins and 15.  But fine, this is enjoyable to you, I cant knock you on what you like, for me, that's not good enough, and frankly not really that close either. 

I do understand older fans who are skeptical because of the history.  But what I don't understand is the settle for average given the resources we have. Its very puzzling, and quite frustrating. 

[billiken_roy]

11 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

You misread my post. My reference was to that the powers did no dream enough to get into a better conference. I am well aware of the history as you are  

dreams cost money.   and for this dream it will be a lot.   considering the trouble everytime we have a fund raising appeal to move up (typically for facilites) we might have to just keep dreaming.   i just dont think the Billikens have enough big boosters to make some of these dreams happen.   there is only so much the few that have stepped up significantly can do.  

[cheeseman]

3 minutes ago, wgstl said:

There are certain "goals" or " levels" to judge a season off of.  Winning 20 games without a Tourney is a tick and I mean a tick better than just winning 15 games and being .500.  The only difference is we get to justify more so overpaying a coach by a ton.  For us fans, you cant really tell the different between 20 wins and 15.  But fine, this is enjoyable to you, I cant knock you on what you like, for me, that's not good enough, and frankly not really that close either. 

I do understand older fans who are skeptical because of the history.  But what I don't understand is the settle for average given the resources we have. Its very puzzling, and quite frustrating. 

I agree. I am not saying we have to only set our sights on the BE. We can only control what is in our control and if and when the BE expands is not in our control. What is in our control is being the best we can and not worry if or when a new opportunity may present itself. The Zags probably never said let’s not get better because we are only in the WCC. Get brand let the chips fall where they may. 

[Schasz]

3 minutes ago, wgstl said:

There are certain "goals" or " levels" to judge a season off of.  Winning 20 games without a Tourney is a tick and I mean a tick better than just winning 15 games and being .500.  The only difference is we get to justify more so overpaying a coach by a ton.  For us fans, you cant really tell the different between 20 wins and 15.  But fine, this is enjoyable to you, I cant knock you on what you like, for me, that's not good enough, and frankly not really that close either. 

I do understand older fans who are skeptical because of the history.  But what I don't understand is the settle for average given the resources we have. Its very puzzling, and quite frustrating. 

Agree winning 20 games when you play in a league that isn't Power 5 is not a reason to have a parade and once we lose in this year's A-10 Tourney Ford (the highest paid HC in the A-10) will be 1 for 7 in making the NCAA. With a pearl like Chaifetz fans should expect much more than that from their HC who is the highest paid in his conference. Not too many conferences allow their head basketball that much leeway!