OT: USMNT

[HoosierPal]

Here is the problem.  The Coach isn't good enough, and the players aren't good enough either.  Okay, maybe a handful have shown their worth on the national stage.  But just because you sit on a bench or play in a second division team in Europe doesn't mean you are worthy of playing for your national team.

Now where are the players we need?  I have no idea.  Are these the best we have?  Probably, but it isn't going to matter who coaches them.  They won't get far in the 2026 World Cup.

[Lord Elrond]

A better coach should be able to get better results from the same players, and be able to better identify talent.  Hiring a better coach is something that US Soccer can control more in the short term then player talent.

[gobillsgo]

51 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

Here is the problem.  The Coach isn't good enough, and the players aren't good enough either.  Okay, maybe a handful have shown their worth on the national stage.  But just because you sit on a bench or play in a second division team in Europe doesn't mean you are worthy of playing for your national team.

Now where are the players we need?  I have no idea.  Are these the best we have?  Probably, but it isn't going to matter who coaches them.  They won't get far in the 2026 World Cup.

This is our Golden generation, we have more players playing at a high level in Europe than ever before.  Why this vibes merchant, who has failed everywhere he’s been, has continued to be trusted with steering this ship is beyond me.   If your point is that certain players don’t have the mentality, well that’s on the coach to either change that, or select different players….  Again, look how excited GGG was to tell his players Panama-Bolivia was tied 1-1. Loser mentality.  Get him out. Get literally anyone else in. 

[someoneelse]

5 minutes ago, gobillsgo said:

This is our Golden generation, we have more players playing at a high level in Europe than ever before.  Why this vibes merchant, who has failed everywhere he’s been, has continued to be trusted with steering this ship is beyond me.   If your point is that certain players don’t have the mentality, well that’s on the coach to either change that, or select different players….  Again, look how excited GGG was to tell his players Panama-Bolivia was tied 1-1. Loser mentality.  Get him out. Get literally anyone else in. 

I hate the term golden generation when referring to this team. 

US soccer is ascendant, yes, but golden generation, to me, means that the team was successful in the past, and now, with some luck due to the 'good' players having their prime at the same time, it is now a golden generation.  Our 'good players' aren't good enough to challenge the upper tier (not even the best) teams.  We were outclassed against the Netherlands in the WC, and now against Panama, yes down a man and Uruguay without their head coach.  

Calling this squad a golden generation is like calling a really good AAA baseball team among the world's best.  

[TheA_Bomb]

OT: Hungarian Striker Martin Adam making svelte' MBM's feel better about their bodies

[billikenfan05]

5 minutes ago, TheA_Bomb said:

OT: Hungarian Striker Martin Adam making svelte' MBM's feel better about their bodies

tHeIr BeSt AtHlEtEs PlAy SoCcEr

[billikenfan05]

Apparently defending coaches to the bitter end is written in the bots code. 

[brianstl]

19 minutes ago, someoneelse said:

I hate the term golden generation when referring to this team. 

US soccer is ascendant, yes, but golden generation, to me, means that the team was successful in the past, and now, with some luck due to the 'good' players having their prime at the same time, it is now a golden generation.  Our 'good players' aren't good enough to challenge the upper tier (not even the best) teams.  We were outclassed against the Netherlands in the WC, and now against Panama, yes down a man and Uruguay without their head coach.  

Calling this squad a golden generation is like calling a really good AAA baseball team among the world's best.  

Looking more and more like our golden generation was actually guys like Reyna, McBride, Keller, Beasley, Wolf, Donnovan and Dempsey.  They actually did something in the World Cup and Copa America.

[slufan13]

The US isn't going to be one of the 8 or so most talented sides in the world but man they are better than this. They have good players and they're playing in their own country and they put together 3 games of 3 total goals, undisciplined soccer, and looked generally lost most of the time. 

A couple key players were missing I'll admit but that's soccer. You have to have the depth to survive that.

I often feel the US gets caught up between playing a formation that fits the squad vs getting their best 11 players on the pitch and ends up doing neither. 

[gobillsgo]

2 hours ago, someoneelse said:

I hate the term golden generation when referring to this team. 

US soccer is ascendant, yes, but golden generation, to me, means that the team was successful in the past, and now, with some luck due to the 'good' players having their prime at the same time, it is now a golden generation.  Our 'good players' aren't good enough to challenge the upper tier (not even the best) teams.  We were outclassed against the Netherlands in the WC, and now against Panama, yes down a man and Uruguay without their head coach.  

Calling this squad a golden generation is like calling a really good AAA baseball team among the world's best.  

I think we have different definitions of golden generation. I am merely referring to the sheer amount of (mostly) young players playing in top Euro leagues.  Almost all of our players play in top 5 leagues, and we’ve seen success from them at club level.  But results-wise, yes, it’s been no better than any previous generations.  To me, that comes down to the coach.  I get that national team managers don’t have as much time to mold players to their style as club coaches.  When has Gregg shown even the slightest ability to adapt to what he has available?  So much of our attacking play typically goes through Sergino Dest. No Dest= very little chance creation.   

[Taj79]

Interesting.  The belief that US Soccer is just a giant awaiting to awaken has been en vogue since Pele came over to the Cosmos in 1975.  That's 49 years and running.

I heard many arguments today on American soccer after the recent COPA failure.  The men suck and the women are great.  Some pundits said foreign kids learn the game on the streets and in alleys whereas American soccer is like a country club sport (their words not mine).  A secondary argument was that Americans needed to create soccer academies and year-round camps to foster the sport.  I thought we had that.  Finally, the argument was to actually spend money and get a good foreign coach to come in and take over.  But that was countered with Jurgen Klinsmann as how that approach has failed as well.

Cheers to the next 49 years.

[Lord Elrond]

13 hours ago, Taj79 said:

Interesting.  The belief that US Soccer is just a giant awaiting to awaken has been en vogue since Pele came over to the Cosmos in 1975.  That's 49 years and running.

I heard many arguments today on American soccer after the recent COPA failure.  The men suck and the women are great.  Some pundits said foreign kids learn the game on the streets and in alleys whereas American soccer is like a country club sport (their words not mine).  A secondary argument was that Americans needed to create soccer academies and year-round camps to foster the sport.  I thought we had that.  Finally, the argument was to actually spend money and get a good foreign coach to come in and take over.  But that was countered with Jurgen Klinsmann as how that approach has failed as well.

Cheers to the next 49 years.

I actually don’t believe US Soccer is a sleeping giant, but I do think it’s capable of doing better than it has been, and the biggest way we can improve is with better coaching, and they’ve done badly recently.

One of the biggest reasons why we aren’t getting better results is that if a US athlete is elite at multiple sports as most really great athletes are, they have to really love the game to choose soccer over another sport, especially if they are from a poor or middle income family. Why? Money.  At the top end, our man Jayson Tatum just got $314 Mil for 5 years, or $62.5 mil per year, while Messi is getting a rumored $50 mil per year (I can’t find a reliable real number, so I’m going with that estimate I’ve heard several times). Look at that and you say not much difference. But the vast majority of athletes are never going to see that money, so let’s compare league minimum salaries:

NFL - $795,000 per year

MLB - $740,000 per year

NHL - $750,000 per year

NBA - $1,157,153 per year

MLS - $71,401 per year

No, I did not drop a digit for MLS.  I’ll add one more thing: the minimum salary for an NFL Practice Squad player is $12,000 per week. Yep, five weeks of being on that NFL practice squad gets you more money than a year (over 9 months) as a MLS player at the minimum level.

I’m not going to get into a US style pay for play system vs the club system in Europe debate, but I just want to say that most people who’ve looked at it agree it’s much harder to become a professional soccer player in the US system than in Europe, and that’s not taking into account that in most European countries the interest level in Soccer is equal to the interest level of the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL combined in the US, so all the best athletes in Europe are trying to get on a club soccer team, while here if your parents don’t have the money to put you on a club and the time to drive you all over to games, you can’t even think about soccer as a young kid.  So naturally you play other sports.

While I think the various academies around US Soccer, especially the MLS academies, should help over time, we’ve got a long way to go. A long way.  Getting interest in soccer as a sports will help, but it’s an uphill climb.

We don’t really have the players, which is why a really good coach is essential for the US. In Soccer, figure out a way to get a goal and score off of a set piece, and then play good defense you can win any one game over any other team.  So when you get past the group stage, every team really does have some legitimate chance of winning. It’s why the Premier League doesn’t even have playoffs, they don’t believe it shows who the better team is, winning the regular season title means a lot more than some fluke result or shootout decided game about who is the better team.

Women are in a different situation, we have the best athletes playing, but low attendance, sponsorship, and TV money, and lack of other leagues paying much results in low salaries.  Minimum salaries:

WNBA - $77,000 per year

NWSL - $35,000 per year

But those are the only sports options if you want to play professionally.  Increased attendance, TV viewership will push those salaries up, but it is what it is right now.

 

 

[SLUMS81]

Interesting contrast between the men’s’ and  womens’ national team.

The men had a good run on the world stage several years ago, but have not come close to being able to sustain it.

The women have been consistently excellent for many years.  

Sure coaching is important.  IMO, the more important issue is that the USWT has its pick of a higher percentage of elite female athletes than does the US mens’ team.  The US women are as athletic or more athletic than the rest of the world.  This is self-sustaining.  The results speak for themselves.

Mens’ soccer does not compete with the NBA for 6’8’’ athletes. It does not compete with the NFL for 300 pound linemen or 250 pound linebackers. USMT would certainly benefit from the services of a few NFL defensive backs or running backs, or a few Olympic sprinters, if they had chosen to play soccer.   The fan interest and financial benefits would very likely improve.
 

 

    

[Gremio14]

23 hours ago, brianstl said:

Looking more and more like our golden generation was actually guys like Reyna, McBride, Keller, Beasley, Wolf, Donnovan and Dempsey.  They actually did something in the World Cup and Copa America.

Agree completely.  With the exception of top form Pulisic, I would take  prime versions of the players you list over any of the current guys.  2002 was the Golden generation if one actually exists…3-2 over Portugal and 2-0 Mexico were epic.

[TheA_Bomb]

Our national coach was fired from the second level Swedish League for not attacking enough. He's never won a club title. The team hasn't beaten a FIFA top 25 team not named Mexico.

The only host Nation to not make it out of the group stage in Copa America. Embarrassing in an easy group.

No one here is saying the US will become Brazil.  Just saying it's not crazy that the US should be in the Quarterfinals of the Copa America.

 

Also the USMNT has made it to the round of 16 in 4 of the last 5 World Cups we've attended.  So the US is mostly where realistic fans expect. Except for missing a WC and this tournament the US is a good team.  It could be better though. 

Croatia has the population of LA 3.8mil.  If LA put together an all star team in any sport vs the rest of the US' all star team (333.3mil population) it could be competitive but the US should have greater talent.

[HoosierPal]

On 7/2/2024 at 10:18 AM, brianstl said:

Looking more and more like our golden generation was actually guys like Reyna, McBride, Keller, Beasley, Wolf, Donnovan and Dempsey.  They actually did something in the World Cup and Copa America.

Unfortunately I agree with you.  Change the Coach, change the Sporting Director, you still have the same players.  The current expectation is to get out of the Group Stage of a Major International tournament.  That is not much.  If Weah doesn't slap the Panama player, perhaps the US advances out of the Group Stage.  And then everyone is happy?  No.

How many top 100 players in the world do we have?  Pulisic for sure, and then it is a guessing game.  Robinson, maybe.  Adams, maybe.  Balogun, not yet.  We have a lot of players that should be depth players, but we are counting on them to get the US into the semifinals, or finals of International tourneys.

We are fielding players who aren't getting minutes in Europe...Reyna and Turner are two examples.  Show me a player with Dempsey's fire, McBride's grit against Italy, or Keller's leadership.  As much as we all like Ream, he is about at the end of his run and who will replace his voice and leadership?   

Change the coach, sure.  Fire the new Sporting Director who hired the coach.  But where do we get better players that can compete with the elite?  I don't know.

[slufanskip]

On 7/3/2024 at 9:34 AM, Gremio14 said:

Agree completely.  With the exception of top form Pulisic, I would take  prime versions of the players you list over any of the current guys.  2002 was the Golden generation if one actually exists…3-2 over Portugal and 2-0 Mexico were epic.

Prime Claudio Reyna over 21 year old Gio Reyna. Not a real comparison. You wouldn’t take 21 year old Claudio over 21 year old Gio. 
Gio. 
 

Did you say Wolf? Lol

Youd take Beasley over A Robinson? 
 

The current guys are better at a younger age than all of the guys you named. One big difference now is elite Goalkeeping. The US always had top tier GK that could keep them in or even win them a game against a better opponent. That’s no longer the case. We have to win it on the field now. 
 

im not as down on the team as most. It was a bad tournament. 
 

1st game won but imo should have had 4 goals minimum 

2nd game Weah has to know better. He had plenty of reason to be pissed but you can’t put your team in that situation. This has pushed me from on the Gregg fence to over it. There is clearly no accountability from him. 3 times in big games over the last few years an important player takes a red for after the play action. Dest, McKennie, and now Weah. 
 

3rd game. Don’t even know how to judge this game. The worst officiating I’ve seen at this level starting with the yellow on Adams that changes how aggressively he can play moving forward. 
 

There are spots on the field where we are lacking and they’re important. 
 

CB’s Maybe Miles Robinson but if Tim Ream at 37? Years old is your best. There’s a problem. Chris Richard’s was a disaster (is he color blind)

 

GK is our starter a top 60 in the world? He’ll is he top 75? 
 

Striker Balogun was better than he had been but I’m still not sold. Josh S, yet to be determined, and the same with Pepi. They are 23, 24, and 21 but it’s time to step up or find a better option. 

[Lord Elrond]

2 hours ago, slufanskip said:

2nd game Weah has to know better. He had plenty of reason to be pissed but you can’t put your team in that situation. This has pushed me from on the Gregg fence to over it. There is clearly no accountability from him. 3 times in big games over the last few years an important player takes a red for after the play action. Dest, McKennie, and now Weah. 
 

That’s got to be the best reason to move on from Gregg I’ve yet seen. Whatever message the coach is sending is not getting through to the players.

[Gremio14]

13 hours ago, slufanskip said:

Prime Claudio Reyna over 21 year old Gio Reyna. Not a real comparison. You wouldn’t take 21 year old Claudio over 21 year old Gio. 
Gio. 
 

Did you say Wolf? Lol

Youd take Beasley over A Robinson? 
 

The current guys are better at a younger age than all of the guys you named. One big difference now is elite Goalkeeping. The US always had top tier GK that could keep them in or even win them a game against a better opponent. That’s no longer the case. We have to win it on the field now. 
 

im not as down on the team as most. It was a bad tournament. 
 

1st game won but imo should have had 4 goals minimum 

2nd game Weah has to know better. He had plenty of reason to be pissed but you can’t put your team in that situation. This has pushed me from on the Gregg fence to over it. There is clearly no accountability from him. 3 times in big games over the last few years an important player takes a red for after the play action. Dest, McKennie, and now Weah. 
 

3rd game. Don’t even know how to judge this game. The worst officiating I’ve seen at this level starting with the yellow on Adams that changes how aggressively he can play moving forward. 
 

There are spots on the field where we are lacking and they’re important. 
 

CB’s Maybe Miles Robinson but if Tim Ream at 37? Years old is your best. There’s a problem. Chris Richard’s was a disaster (is he color blind)

 

GK is our starter a top 60 in the world? He’ll is he top 75? 
 

Striker Balogun was better than he had been but I’m still not sold. Josh S, yet to be determined, and the same with Pepi. They are 23, 24, and 21 but it’s time to step up or find a better option. 

Your analysis is basically spot on.  Where I disagree:

 

I take prime Claudio over current Gio any day of the week.  Yeah, Gio is young and has shown flashes; however he sits the bench on all of his club teams and projecting him to be better than prime Claudio in the future is a crap shoot.  Prime Claudio all day long.

You’re correct on Wolff.  I did not exclude him from Brianstl list for simplicity’s sake.

You can argue ARob over Beasley.  I take prime (uninjured) John O’Brien over either of them.  The most technical outside back (and probably the most underrated player) ever on the USMNT.  We don’t make it to the second round in 2002 without him.

[slufanskip]

4 hours ago, Gremio14 said:

Your analysis is basically spot on.  Where I disagree:

 

I take prime Claudio over current Gio any day of the week.  Yeah, Gio is young and has shown flashes; however he sits the bench on all of his club teams and projecting him to be better than prime Claudio in the future is a crap shoot.  Prime Claudio all day long.

You’re correct on Wolff.  I did not exclude him from Brianstl list for simplicity’s sake.

You can argue ARob over Beasley.  I take prime (uninjured) John O’Brien over either of them.  The most technical outside back (and probably the most underrated player) ever on the USMNT.  We don’t make it to the second round in 2002 without him.

You misunderstood or I wasn’t clear. My point is it’s unfair to compare prime Claudio over current Gio. It’s unfair to say I’ll take any player in their prime over a 22, 23 year old. Pulisic is 25 and just now really establishing himself as a force. 2 years ago, I would have said Prime Dempsey and Donovan over Pulisic at that point. I’ll take current Pulisic over Dempsey or Donovan at any point in their careers. The difference of a couple of years of growth and maturity. 
 

With a healthy Dest, I’ll take our current midfield, outside backs, and wingers over any USMNT group but even with Miles and Tim there isn’t a CB I’d put in our top 3-4 and that’s even with the understanding that it’s a position we’ve never been strong at. Numerous #9’s over anyone we currently have with the caveat that 2-3 year from now that could change. Matt is not among the top 5 GK’ers

i think you are underestimating Jedi. Beasley at his best isn’t comparable to current Jedi who is also in his Prime so fair comparison. In my history of the USMNT top 11, I’ll take Jedi at left back, with no disrespect to O’Brien but I can see the fair argument 

 

Good topic for discussion though your all time best 11. I’ll put mine but need time to think about it. All players either current or in their prime. 
 

I know I have Howard though my dog was named Keller so .., I also have Pulisic, Claudio, McBride, and Jedi

 

 

[slufan13]

Having worse CB's is just such a big factor given the level of talent we have to take on. And then add a GK who is fine but won't steal you a game and you are just missing 3 spots that you can't really hide. They've been missing a pure goalscorer forever but Balogun really intrigues me. I think we have more raw talent everywhere else than we did 20 years ago but we might be missing a little bit of that scrappiness that could steal us a game too. 

[slufanskip]

According to Fox Sports Gregg B is out

[Lord Elrond]

16 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

According to Fox Sports Gregg B is out

Would like to see that in an official announcement from US Soccer. Gregg Berhalter has more lives than a cat, I want to see the official word before celebrating.

[brianstl]

https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/40480333/usa-coach-gregg-berhalter-fired-copa-america

[Lord Elrond]

8 minutes ago, brianstl said:

https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/40480333/usa-coach-gregg-berhalter-fired-copa-america

 About time