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Sheltiedave

Five SIU observations from da Natuzzi in SoCo

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1 hour ago, billiken_roy said:

i know i am apparently in the minority, but i dont know what a wrinkle area is, at least in a basketball game.   i know taj and skip are showing more wrinkles below their eyes, but i dont think that is what you are talking about?

Not Sheltie and I'm not totally sure either, but I think he means "winkle area in a 2-3 zone defense" which I believe is basically anywhere between the defenders.  If that makes sense.

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1 hour ago, billiken_roy said:

i know i am apparently in the minority, but i dont know what a wrinkle area is, at least in a basketball game.   i know taj and skip are showing more wrinkles below their eyes, but i dont think that is what you are talking about?

The wrinkle area is generally considered the soft spot in the zone. It'll vary depending on the zone and how you're attacking it. It's just not a commonly used term or a term I would use but it is a term I have heard used such as find the wrinkle in the zone. However, just to raz Sheltie a bit, I've never heard of teaching the slithering skill

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I still think the offense runs well thru Yuri, especially when we push it with his exceptional court vision. I really think his limited minutes in the second half was due more to his D on the Jones(?) kid, who is also a FR. He was eating Yuri's breakfast, lunch, and dinner on dribble drives in the first half. 

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I think it was over in the GDT that someone said SUI fans were saying Mullins outcoached Ford.  Too lazy to find the post and I think my comment fits better in this thread anywyas.  I'm not totally sure I'd agree with that, but SIU certainly had us scouted very well.

Things that SIU did that I expect we will see a lot:

  • Seemed to focus on getting back on D / stopping transition buckets with Yuri in the game
  • Double/triple teamed in the post especially early when they knew we'd force feed French.
  • Sagged off Collins and dared him to shoot so he had no driving / passing lanes.

The general SIU plan seemed to be to make us work for a full shot clock on D and then force us to beat them with jumpers out of the half court offense.  I'd imagine we'll see that a lot.  We can still beat teams that do that as long as our D holds up and we can out rebound them which is going to be a lot tougher against good teams.

It'll be interesting to see what adjustments (if any) SLU makes with a full week before Tulane.

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1 minute ago, RUBillsFan said:

I think it was over in the GDT that someone said SUI fans were saying Mullins outcoached Ford.  Too lazy to find the post and I think my comment fits better in this thread anywyas.  I'm not totally sure I'd agree with that, but SIU certainly had us scouted very well.

Things that SIU did that I expect we will see a lot:

  • Seemed to focus on getting back on D / stopping transition buckets with Yuri in the game
  • Double/triple teamed in the post especially early when they knew we'd force feed French.
  • Sagged off Collins and dared him to shoot so he had no driving / passing lanes.

The general SIU plan seemed to be to make us work for a full shot clock on D and then force us to beat them with jumpers out of the half court offense.  I'd imagine we'll see that a lot.  We can still beat teams that do that as long as our D holds up and we can out rebound them which is going to be a lot tougher against good teams.

It'll be interesting to see what adjustments (if any) SLU makes with a full week before Tulane.

Also did a good job taking us off the dribble and slipping ball screens to take advantage of our weak side defenders focusing on stopping the 3.

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1 hour ago, billiken_roy said:

i know i am apparently in the minority, but i dont know what a wrinkle area is, at least in a basketball game.   i know taj and skip are showing more wrinkles below their eyes, but i dont think that is what you are talking about?

Roy, the wrinkle area is the seam between the guards covering the three point line and the bigs down low. As the defense expands and contracts, there always is a seam, or wrinkle which arcs across the elbows. Against a zone, it is where the flash man presents to get the entry pass.

This is the area where French and Goodwin are excelling, as their points and offensive rebounds/tips are coming off curls and drives from 12-18 feet out. They have the quickness, strength and hands to work in middle space, and their double double averages show we need to shift our game openings a little to emphasize this aspect more.

We score well with a widely spaced, flatter defense guarding us. Offensive sets should force defenses to this shape. Instead we start the game forcing defenses toward a compact box and man, the worst defense for us to attack.

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1 minute ago, Sheltiedave said:

Roy, the wrinkle area is the seam between the guards covering the three point line and the bigs down low. As the defense expands and contracts, there always is a seam, or wrinkle which arcs across the elbows. Against a zone, it is where the flash man presents to get the entry pass.

This is the area where French and Goodwin are excelling, as their points and offensive rebounds/tips are coming off curls and drives from 12-18 feet out. They have the quickness, strength and hands to work in middle space, and their double double averages show we need to shift our game openings a little to emphasize this aspect more.

We score well with a widely spaced, flatter defense guarding us. Offensive sets should force defenses to this shape. Instead we start the game forcing defenses toward a compact box and man, the worst defense for us to attack.

thanks.  i knew you would have the answer professor.

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34 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

thanks.  i knew you would have the answer professor.

Been following hoops closely since '62 and this is my first acquaintance with the term "wrinkle area." When I coached youth basketball, I always had trouble figuring out how to instruct the back three in at 2-1-2 to defend the lane when I told the guards to extend their pressure. Having the term wrinkle area in my arsenal may have helped. Keep bringing on the new terminology.

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7 minutes ago, billikenbill said:

Been following hoops closely since '62 and this is my first acquaintance with the term "wrinkle area." When I coached youth basketball, I always had trouble figuring out how to instruct the back three in at 2-1-2 to defend the lane when I told the guards to extend their pressure. Having the term wrinkle area in my arsenal may have helped. Keep bringing on the new terminology.

I figured wrinkle area caused by the press. need some starch. 

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41 minutes ago, Sheltiedave said:

We score well with a widely spaced, flatter defense guarding us. Offensive sets should force defenses to this shape. Instead we start the game forcing defenses toward a compact box and man, the worst defense for us to attack.

Goodwin and Yuri are not the best 3 point shooters -- and Jacobs has seemed to prefer drives to the basket since his 21 point performance - which included some early success from the 3 point arc but then most of his remaining points from drives to the basket.  Add them to French and Bell - and we have no shooters or spacing.  IMO, just not a diverse set of 5 for us to start the game - a time when defenses are more disciplined at executing their game plan.   And even if Goodwin and/or Yuri make their first attempt from the perimeter, I doubt defenses will change their game plans - until they repeatedly score from the perimeter.

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2 minutes ago, almaman said:

I figured wrinkle area caused by the press. need some starch. 

Uniform maintenance staff needs to step up its game. isn't what it could be.

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16 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

Goodwin and Yuri are not the best 3 point shooters -- 

actually right now yuri is second in 3 point % on the team

1. courtney - 100%

2. yuri -             50%

3. jimmerson   44%

4. weaver         38%

5. goodwin      33%

6. jacobs         30%

7. perkins        20%

8. thatch          17%

9. hankton         0%

9. Hargrove       0%

9 Hightower      0%

no other player has shot a three pointer this year.  

 

if you go by makes

1. jimmerson 18

2. jacobs          7

3. goodwin      6

3. weaver         6

5. perkins         5

6. collins          3

7. thatch          2

8. courtney      1

no other player has made a three point attempt

the point is they may not be the best but they are not the worst.   one can definitely argue that collins should shoot more, at least at this time.   

 

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3 hours ago, slu72 said:

Agree with above. He's being mentored by a pretty good PG in his day. So, I'm sure these issues will be addressed. Especially his 3 pt shot. 

I wouldn't worry too much about his 3 pt shooting, he will never be a good enough shooter to change the way teams defend him. What I mean by that is in an ideal world an opposing team would like to shut a player down completely, as this is usually unrealistic they will settle for forcing the player to do whatever it is that they are least efficient at and will hurt them the least over the course of a game, in Yuri's case that would be perimeter shooting. Even if Yuri were to become a 40% 3pt shooter teams will take that as they will much rather have him do that then slice thru their defense, dropping dimes all over the place, getting their bigs in foul trouble and all the other bad things that happen when you allow dribble penetration. 

Having players on the court with him who can space the floor and allow him to do what he does best is more important than him making 4 out of 10 long jump shots. 

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14 minutes ago, MichaelC said:

I wouldn't worry too much about his 3 pt shooting, he will never be a good enough shooter to change the way teams defend him. What I mean by that is in an ideal world an opposing team would like to shut a player down completely, as this is usually unrealistic they will settle for forcing the player to do whatever it is that they are least efficient at and will hurt them the least over the course of a game, in Yuri's case that would be perimeter shooting. Even if Yuri were to become a 40% 3pt shooter teams will take that as they will much rather have him do that then slice thru their defense, dropping dimes all over the place, getting their bigs in foul trouble and all the other bad things that happen when you allow dribble penetration. 

Having players on the court with him who can space the floor and allow him to do what he does best is more important than him making 4 out of 10 long jump shots. 

i disagree to an extent.   if collins doesnt shoot (and make) we will see more of the triple and double teams that french saw yesterday which would also clog the lane for goodwin.   things have to happen to make sure we dont have the two of them limited.   and imo that starts with collins or jacobs or goodwin whoever is out front, shooting and making shots.   

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1 hour ago, Sheltiedave said:

Roy, the wrinkle area is the seam between the guards covering the three point line and the bigs down low. As the defense expands and contracts, there always is a seam, or wrinkle which arcs across the elbows. Against a zone, it is where the flash man presents to get the entry pass.

This is the area where French and Goodwin are excelling, as their points and offensive rebounds/tips are coming off curls and drives from 12-18 feet out. They have the quickness, strength and hands to work in middle space, and their double double averages show we need to shift our game openings a little to emphasize this aspect more.

We score well with a widely spaced, flatter defense guarding us. Offensive sets should force defenses to this shape. Instead we start the game forcing defenses toward a compact box and man, the worst defense for us to attack.

-I would say more Goodwin and Perkins

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5 hours ago, Sheltiedave said:

We don’t necessarily need all the scorers out on the floor to start the game. What we do need is some variety in how we attack, and how we initiate our offense.

We run our best offensive sets when we wheel around a forward in the wrinkle area. We don’t do well early trying to pound the ball in to Bell or French. We don’t do well passing it around the horn, waiting for a defender to fall asleep on a 3 pt shooter.

Opposing teams will stack the paint on French. They will stack the right side on Collins, aggressively closing out his driving and passing lanes.

The good news - every game Ford has some elements the players have thrown into play. SIU saw Jimerson hoist a couple quick threes. No fake, no misdirection, no dribble, just a catch and shoot. One out of bounds play had French pivot and face block his man and Jimerson’s, so Jimerson could high wheel over to the right sideline for an easy clean three.
 

Finally, Jacobs showed he can shake his man off a double high screen by shoulder diving into the screen. Everyone needs to pick up on this, as we should get a couple threes a game on these brush offs.

Jacobs also showed a nice pg moment when he grabbed a 50/50 contested loose ball, and immediately spun to body shield the SIU guard. That is textbook ball  security.

Jacobs is showing why he is starting.  Securing the ball, good D, scoring some, play making .... and getting better each game.  

Yuri is a player, and is clearly solidly in the rotation, but he needs to improve his decision making.  Way too erratic the past few games as competition level increased.  But really, love his pass first attitude.

 

 

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I'm not sure if he can do it, but Collins should / needs to shoot 3s when opponents sag off him a ton like SIU was doing and make them at a decent clip* (33% or more).  As Roy pointed out, he's currently shooting 50% from 3 pt land which means he isn't shooting enough when he's left wide open IMO.

* - I'm not saying his overall % needs to be 33% or more, but just on the wide open ones where opponents sag off.  He shouldn't really be taking others unless he really develops a good shot, but I do expect that he'll take a one here and there or be stuck w the ball and the clock winding down and have to put one up.

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7 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

i disagree to an extent.   if collins doesnt shoot (and make) we will see more of the triple and double teams that french saw yesterday which would also clog the lane for goodwin.   things have to happen to make sure we dont have the two of them limited.   and imo that starts with collins or jacobs or goodwin whoever is out front, shooting and making shots.   

I understand your point and we'll have to wait and see how the coaches in the A10 decide to play it, there may be some coaches that see it the way you do. If I'm coaching against SLU I'm doubling French no matter how many 3s Yuri makes because to me he's much more dangerous driving into the paint than shooting 3s, I would stay attached to Jimerson i(f he's in the game), double French and let Yuri shoot all the 3s he wants. As for Jacobs and Goodwin they would have to show me first, then if they start making shots I'd adjust. 

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Yuri has attempted 6 -3's. I'm not against him taking them, but they're not sagging off him at the 3 point line and just begging for him to shoot. I want him to keep them honest but I don't think we need Yuri shooting 3-4 three's per game. I obviously wouldn't mind Jimerson shooting another 3 pt shot or 2 a game but I'd also like to see Jacobs ready to catch and shoot a little more. I get his percentage isn't that great but he's got a nice looking shot and I think he can end up in the mid 30's. He's 0-4 his last 2 games so with his small sample size it doesn't take much to raise or lower his % much. For example if he went 2/4 in his next game he'd be back up to 33%. 

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50 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

actually right now yuri is second in 3 point % on the team

1. courtney - 100%

2. yuri -             50%

3. jimmerson   44%

4. weaver         38%

5. goodwin      33%

6. jacobs         30%

7. perkins        20%

8. thatch          17%

9. hankton         0%

9. Hargrove       0%

9 Hightower      0%

no other player has shot a three pointer this year.  

 

if you go by makes

1. jimmerson 18

2. jacobs          7

3. goodwin      6

3. weaver         6

5. perkins         5

6. collins          3

7. thatch          2

8. courtney      1

no other player has made a three point attempt

the point is they may not be the best but they are not the worst.   one can definitely argue that collins should shoot more, at least at this time.   

 

Roy.   Don't give us garbage stats like that.   You know better.   Percentages are soooooo misleading.    Yuri has attempted only six (6) 3 pointers for the entire year -- not even 1 per game - and I suspect that each one of them (I recall yesterday's) was when Yuri was completely wide open -- against no defense.   Of course a PG should make 50% of them (3 of 6) under this situation.    Let me know when Yuri shoots 3 to 4 per game and when he is being defended --- see Jimerson.

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1 minute ago, MichaelC said:

I understand your point and we'll have to wait and see how the coaches in the A10 decide to play it, there may be some coaches that see it the way you do. If I'm coaching against SLU I'm doubling French no matter how many 3s Yuri makes because to me he's much more dangerous driving into the paint than shooting 3s, I would stay attached to Jimerson i(f he's in the game), double French and let Yuri shoot all the 3s he wants. As for Jacobs and Goodwin they would have to show me first, then if they start making shots I'd adjust. 

Exactly.   No one adjusts their defense upon a percentage of a small number of attempts.

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5 minutes ago, Clock_Tower said:

Roy.   Don't give us garbage stats like that.   You know better.   Percentages are soooooo misleading.    Yuri has attempted only six (6) 3 pointers for the entire year -- not even 1 per game - and I suspect that each one of them (I recall yesterday's) was when Yuri was completely wide open -- against no defense.   Of course a PG should make 50% of them (3 of 6) under this situation.    Let me know when Yuri shoots 3 to 4 per game and when he is being defended --- see Jimerson.

nobody should be shooting 3's when they are closely defended....i also wouldn't minimize someone hitting a shot when they are completely wide open on this team, when we can't shoot 60% from the line.......

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27 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

Yuri has attempted 6 -3's. I'm not against him taking them, but they're not sagging off him at the 3 point line and just begging for him to shoot. I want him to keep them honest but I don't think we need Yuri shooting 3-4 three's per game. I obviously wouldn't mind Jimerson shooting another 3 pt shot or 2 a game but I'd also like to see Jacobs ready to catch and shoot a little more. I get his percentage isn't that great but he's got a nice looking shot and I think he can end up in the mid 30's. He's 0-4 his last 2 games so with his small sample size it doesn't take much to raise or lower his % much. For example if he went 2/4 in his next game he'd be back up to 33%. 

Yuri 's 3  3's come from 6 shots.

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42 minutes ago, almaman said:

Yuri 's 3  3's come from 6 shots.

Yes, that's what I wrote. 

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