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Five SIU observations from da Natuzzi in SoCo

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9 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

So if French takes over the scoring lead which will make him "averaging the highest ppg by a SLU player"  will he be our best point guard? 

Goodwin only plays the point for 5-10 min a game, so I'm not sure how you can derive what he does while not playing the point makes him the best pg. 

 

By your own concession, Goodwin plays some at point guard and French does not, so not sure you're making sense. And Goodwin is a better PG than Collins at the moment is the point I was making. Not that Goodwin only plays point guard.

 

 

11 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

Collins, even with his recent struggles is averaging 6 apg and has an assist to turnover ratio of 1.6. No other player is even close to those numbers.

Haha yes assists is one part of basektball and Collins has a slightly better Asst/To ratio, but Goodwin is better at literally every other single aspect of basketball. I'm not saying Goodwin is better at having high assist totals, but he is a better point guard. If you put any 4 rotation guys with goodwin and then with collins, the team is better off with goodwin on the floor. 

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2 hours ago, dennis_w said:

ford mentioned in the postgame interview that jimerson has greatly improved on defense, we have tough critics on the board for players only eight games into their d-1 careers

Ford has also praised Perkins’ and Weaver’s defense? I don’t see a lot of people criticizing Jimerson. I just pushed back on the notion that he’s a better defender than our other, more experienced players.

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7 minutes ago, glazedandconfused said:

By your own concession, Goodwin plays some at point guard and French does not, so not sure you're making sense. And Goodwin is a better PG than Collins at the moment is the point I was making. Not that Goodwin only plays point guard.

 

 

Haha yes assists is one part of basektball and Collins has a slightly better Asst/To ratio, but Goodwin is better at literally every other single aspect of basketball. I'm not saying Goodwin is better at having high assist totals, but he is a better point guard. If you put any 4 rotation guys with goodwin and then with collins, the team is better off with goodwin on the floor. 

I was being sarcastic obviously. You are using stats garnered though while not playing pg to determine he's the best pg. Agreed he's the better player, by far at this point. Assists and t/o's are the primary way to judge a pg. 

Yuri creates an assist every 4:45 on the floor. Goodwin every 12 minutes. Yuri has only 8 t/o's more than Goodwin despite creating double the assists per minute. 

Yes Goodwin and 4 is probably better than Yuri and 4 but only due to Goodwin's superior offensive skills and athleticism. However, there is another option that allows them both to do what they do best. 

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Just now, slufanskip said:

I was being sarcastic obviously. You are using stats garnered though while not playing pg to determine he's the best pg. Agreed he's the better player, by far at this point. Assists and t/o's are the primary way to judge a pg. 

Yuri creates an assist every 4:45 on the floor. Goodwin every 12 minutes. Yuri has only 8 t/o's more than Goodwin despite creating double the assists per minute. 

Yes Goodwin and 4 is probably better than Yuri and 4 but only due to Goodwin's superior offensive skills and athleticism. However, there is another option that allows them both to do what they do best. 

- Don't want to throw too much water on Yurimania, but Yuri has had 2 excellent games vs Florida Gulf Coast and Eastern Washington. Outside of that, his Assist to TO ratio is pretty much 1:1. We've yet to see Yuri have a good game vs a solid opponent, yet. I think he will have many this year, but he has not played great in the last 2.5 weeks. 

- Also, I laughed at the "probably"

- Yes there is an option to play both at the same time, but as has been clearly stated earlier, the offense has been significantly worse with Yuri in the lineup.  

 

image.png

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I usually try to stay away from the actual basketball talk, cuz bored, but in the first half, several players took shots that were total bricks, almost broke the backboard.

Instead of taking chump shots, that miss damn near everything, the SLU players should just swish those shots.

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4 hours ago, NH said:

Jimerson is a worse defensive player than both Perkins and Weaver. Maybe by the time he is an upperclassmen he will be better, but not right now. 

Obviously you didn't listen to TF  on the post game radio show last evening.  He was very pleased with both Jimmmerson and JP's defense, and said they were the most improved defenders on the team.  He didn't say they were the best but it was interesting during an interview with Rammer and EA Jr., when he was extremely upset with just about everything from the game, that he would take the time to say something positive about GJ and Perkins' defense.  If you watch the replay of the game it clearly does not support the claim of a poster earlier the Perkins couldn't stop Domask therefore he wasn't a very good defender.  If you just focus on Domask during the game he got a large number of his points against players other than Perkins, including more than a few times when due to effective screens Domask would find himself in the paint with a small guard trying to stop him.  Since HF couldn't shut down Benson last night (or G Golden last year) does that mean he is a poor defender?  I don't think so.  My point is not that Perkins is the best defender on the team, but rather that he was not responsible for a significant number of Domask's points-no one wearing a Billiken jersey was able to stop that guy.  Our expert announcers-Rammer, Earl and Scott all marveled at how talented Domask was.  Maybe it was a game in which Fred Thatch was needed for his defensive abilities.

Who had the most trouble defending last night?  Our small guards could not stop dribble penetration--period.  And the guy they were defending was the SIU-C backup PG.  Much improvement is needed in that aspect of our defense before trying to stop some of the quick guards in Conference play.  I don't know if it just that our guys defending the PG are not quick enough or if it is a matter that could be fixed by improved one-on-one defensive coaching.  We had the same issue with quick guards last year so maybe be need some better coaching for this aspect of the game.  Shoot, I would just sit our guards down and have them study Chatmond (sp?) on Dayton.  All color commentators on the UD games In HI were extremely complimentary on his footwork and positioning and I never saw his mark flying by him. 

 

 

Edited by bauman
typo

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23 hours ago, slu72 said:

We went with the starting five of the last 3 games and quickly fell into a hole. Bell only saw 3 minutes and sat. Yurimania played 21 minutes most coming in the first half. I like Yurimania, but it's time to come off the bench. I think the best starting lineup, because of Fred's apparent health problems, has to be JGood, Jacobs, French, Perkins, and Jimerson. Yes, Perkins may be a bit of a liability on D, same for Jimerson. But they are scorers.

Perkins in body and mindset reminds me a little of Harry Rogers. For those of you who never saw Harry play, and I did for 3 years, he would not pass Taj Mahal 79's eye test, ie he wasn't some bulked up PF or # 3. He was tall and lanky.  Yes, the game has changed, but Rogers was a very fluid player who could hit shots from the outside or take you off the dribble. Perkins shows me the same traits. He's a scorer first and foremost. He may find he's overmatched when we play Auburn, who all look like the Russkie weight lifting squad, but we don't have a PF or player, besides French, who looks like that anyways. Yes, he will get beat on D, but he will also likely beat his guy on offense. Zero sum game. Perkins should start or get 25 mpg. 

Jacobs showed us something tonight, I thought. He made a couple of good assists and can shoot it. Another scorer not quite like Perkins but he's a threat. In the speed up game, he's an asset. 

Jimerson, it goes without saying, the more minutes this kid gets he's going to score more. He's going to stop the D's from collapsing on French and JGood. His biggest sin was that turnover on his long pass. I call it a heads up play that he tried but didn't work. If he doesn't start, he's got to get his minutes just to throw the other team off stride. He needs to get in the flow early. He's not a bad defender that should only get better once he learns the tricks of the trade. 

Bell can replace French in spurts. Can't believe he's got such bad hands, which has been his weakness. He's either not looking for the pass, or he's got Trump sized hands and just can't handle the rock. 

No need to comment on French or JGood , but I'll add these points.  We are what they are, and they are pretty good. Yeah, we'd like to see JGood shoot better from the outside and the line. Maybe it happens. If it does, he's all A10. French is a warrior who can't hit a FT if a W depends on it, and it will in future games. But it was very obvious tonight, until we got Perkins and Jimerson involved, how SIU was going to play this game.  Drop 3 guys on French, and if JGood snuck in there the crowd would provide help. Expect more of that, and that's why we need Perkins and Jimerson in there a lot. 

As for Jacobs, if he doesn't step up then we still have Yurimania and Weaver to bail him out. Also, Yuri can spell JGood. Same goes for Weaver. 

We're 7-1 and entering the toughest part of our non con. Is KSU beatable by this team?  More likely than beating Auburn and Pearl. Tulane could be a struggle, but I'd expect we win that. Then it's basically conference play. That's where the real fun begins, as the A10 appears pretty decent from 1-10 teams. 

Not only saw Harry Rogers at SLU but also when he played in HS at Sumner. His Sr year in HS that team was one of the best I had seen. They had a 7' Center David Brent and Marshall Rogers(don't think he and Harry were related). Marshall ended up playing at Pan American and I believe he lead the NCAA in scoring his Sr year.

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Chatman is a fourth year junior with all fours years in a D1 setting.  Apples to oranges in my book.

Hmark compared Domask to former Saluki/STL product Matt Shaw.

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1 hour ago, glazedandconfused said:

- Don't want to throw too much water on Yurimania, but Yuri has had 2 excellent games vs Florida Gulf Coast and Eastern Washington. Outside of that, his Assist to TO ratio is pretty much 1:1. We've yet to see Yuri have a good game vs a solid opponent, yet. I think he will have many this year, but he has not played great in the last 2.5 weeks. 

- Also, I laughed at the "probably"

- Yes there is an option to play both at the same time, but as has been clearly stated earlier, the offense has been significantly worse with Yuri in the lineup.  

 

image.png

Clearly stated now I laughed at that one. I mean if I was clearly stated it's got to be true. Goodwin is not the point guard and plays at most 20% of his minutes at the point and he's not going to be the pg moving forward despite what you think or want.  Agreed Yuri has not been as good the last 3 games. Don't know if it has to do with him having a hurt hand or just growing pains or more than likely a little bit of both. 

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3 hours ago, glazedandconfused said:

No STAT has ever lied. It is a STAT, not a 5'11 shoot first point guard with millions of youtube followers talking to his wife.  People just irresponsibly draw conclusions that they should not be drawing. 

I know you are a recruit that is posting voluminous amount of stuff. Stats are neither truths nor lies, they are just numbers that represent or are supposed to represent performance. The interpretation of stats is always a problem, because it is an individual thing. People can see exactly the same numbers and come around thinking very different things.

However, one thing stats are not and shall never be are rigid rules or laws of the universe. They are just numbers. I am taking my time saying this because I am being kind and understanding of your recruit status. In other words, I think you are rather rigid in the way you look at the numbers. Do not take this as an intended offense, believe me this is not my intention here.

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1 hour ago, Schasz said:

Not only saw Harry Rogers at SLU but also when he played in HS at Sumner. His Sr year in HS that team was one of the best I had seen. They had a 7' Center David Brent and Marshall Rogers(don't think he and Harry were related). Marshall ended up playing at Pan American and I believe he lead the NCAA in scoring his Sr year.

And Brent rejected us to play at Jacksonville alongside Artis Gilmore. Stayed a year and disappeared. Shame, he could have helped big time. 

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5 hours ago, glazedandconfused said:

FWIW if you Net Offensive and defensive ratings, you get. It helps explain how our defense isn't really that much better or worse depending on lineup, but our offense is a whole lot worse when say Bell and Collins are in. 

image.png.13ebeec8945bfd6bd744b873c1413849.png

 

Shhh don’t show them our obvious starters 

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5 hours ago, glazedandconfused said:

FWIW if you Net Offensive and defensive ratings, you get. It helps explain how our defense isn't really that much better or worse depending on lineup, but our offense is a whole lot worse when say Bell and Collins are in. 

image.png.13ebeec8945bfd6bd744b873c1413849.png

 

So am I to understand that Tay Weaver is by far our best player and French is our 5th best? 

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15 hours ago, MichaelC said:

IMO they are all bad defenders but as you accurately pointed out for different reasons and in different ways. Of the 3, I would say Jimerson is the most likely to improve as his problems seems to be technique/confidence related, he doesn't seem to trust that he can stay in front of people so as soon as someone starts to drive on him he immediately reaches out with his hands rather than move his feet, easily correctable.  Weaver is in his 5th year, if he's not a good defender by now that's not likely to change over the next 3 months. Perkins is somewhere in the middle, he should be at least a serviceable defender, I would guess that because of his ability to score no coach has really demanded that he play D, if Ford does I think he can improve a little this year and then make a bigger jump in improvement next off season. 

Agree to disagree.  Defense is an extremely important part of the game which everyone says they take seriously -- at all levels of play.  In reality, guys are either fooling themselves (and others) or they just have not been properly exposed and coached by someone demanding the same.   As you point out, technique, footwork, position on the floor is extremely important.  Talent and effort go a long way - but defensive fundamentals must be learned.

Unfortunately, most high school players don't learn how to truly play defense at the D1 level until they arrive.   A prior year at prep school may help (Jimerson) but usually doesn't.   Two years at JUCO may help (Perkins) but most often doesn't.   And three (3) prior years of college at a lower level may help (Weaver) but not necessarily.  Sometimes bad habits are not only formed but are hardened and perfected.   Rick Majerus never licked to take transfers and JUCO's for this reason -  takes too long to teach, too hard to unlearn bad/wrong habits and then the available window of opportunity to use their knowledge taught is too short.

Coach Ford is not so rigid and takes graduate transfers, JUCO's, regular transfers and the like.   Don't read into Weaver and Perkin's prior college experience and believe they are now as good as they will get.  Both (along with Jimerson) already have gotten better and will continue to get better. First impressions were not great and exposed prior coaching (or lack thereof) more so than actual talent/skill.  Again, only 8 games into the season.   Let's take another look at the start of conference play.

Coach Ford at halftime of the SIUC game was pissed at his team.   And not only for what guys did but for what guys did not do.   Is it good for our guys to switch on guarding their assigned opponent?   Sure, as a general rule.   But NOT (as Coach Ford) suggested when your PG ends up guarding the other team's center who is down at the low post. No.  Out at the 3 point line ?  Yes.  And yes, too many guys have gotten beat one - on - one -- but where has the help side defense been?   We see our guy get beat one - on - one (not good), but if the other 4  do their job, then all is good...

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Didn’t want to start a new thread, so I’ll ask here,  do we know what Hankton’s injury/status is?  The lack of info about him or Thatch is concerning. 

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10 hours ago, Old guy said:

I know you are a recruit that is posting voluminous amount of stuff. Stats are neither truths nor lies, they are just numbers that represent or are supposed to represent performance. The interpretation of stats is always a problem, because it is an individual thing. People can see exactly the same numbers and come around thinking very different things.

However, one thing stats are not and shall never be are rigid rules or laws of the universe. They are just numbers. I am taking my time saying this because I am being kind and understanding of your recruit status. In other words, I think you are rather rigid in the way you look at the numbers. Do not take this as an intended offense, believe me this is not my intention here.

Yes obviously I agree that stats are not laws of the universe haha which is why I stated people should not be drawing conclusions based just off of stats.

 

10 hours ago, Old guy said:

I know you are a recruit that is posting voluminous amount of stuff.

 

I''ve posted 2.5 times per day for a month. You've posted 4,800 times over 2,400 days (or 2.0 times per day for 6.5 years)... and that's assuming you post as much in the offseason too.... So careful throwing the v-word around old guy.

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10 hours ago, slufanskip said:

So am I to understand that Tay Weaver is by far our best player and French is our 5th best? 

 No, Tay Weaver shoots like 2 shots a game. It’s not enough to make a legit argument he is our best player. It just shows he’s been really good when he’s been out there.

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16 hours ago, dennis_w said:

ford mentioned in the postgame interview that jimerson has greatly improved on defense, we have tough critics on the board for players only eight games into their d-1 careers

Yes, this is what Ford did say, and he added Perkins.  He did not say that they were good defenders, only that they both have greatly improved since the start.  We don't know where their floor was when they started.  Ford may, or may not, still consider them to be lacking defensively. 

Ford was EXTREMELY unhappy with perimeter defense during the opening half of the SIUC game, which would include just about everyone who played except French.  I thought he was going to punch Highmark during the very short interview as they left the floor.

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1 hour ago, glazedandconfused said:

 No, Tay Weaver shoots like 2 shots a game. It’s not enough to make a legit argument he is our best player. It just shows he’s been really good when he’s been out there.

Clearly then we need to get him on the floor more. Maybe French needs to play a bit less so Weaver, Jimerson, and Jacobs can play more. Jimerson and Jacobs have taken quite a few shots and it clearly shows they are better than French. Have you let coach know of this? I can't imagine he wouldn't want to make some adjustments to playing time. 

In reality the rankings are flawed and don't tell the entire picture. It's just a stat to gleam a small amount of info from. It's like people who tout WAR in baseball but want to dismiss all the obviously ridiculous rankings that it represents. Using your offensive rankings the difference between Jacobs and French (clearly Jacobs being the better offensive player) is greater than the difference between French and Perkins ( just so everyone understands French is a better offensive player than Perkins but he is not better than Jacobs, Jimerson, or Goodwin. Jimerson is our best offensive player (as Weaver is an exception) and Jacobs is next a little better than Goodwin.)

And still you're using stats gained while a player isn't playing the position you're claiming the stats represent he's better at. 

 

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Wow, it just occurred to me that Clocktoweraccords2004 is not the same poster as glazedandconfused, or is he/she/it?

And which one is GloryDays/TRavTFord?  

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5 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

Clearly then we need to get him on the floor more. Maybe French needs to play a bit less so Weaver, Jimerson, and Jacobs can play more. Jimerson and Jacobs have taken quite a few shots and it clearly shows they are better than French. Have you let coach know of this? I can't imagine he wouldn't want to make some adjustments to playing time. 

In reality the rankings are flawed and don't tell the entire picture. It's just a stat to gleam a small amount of info from. It's like people who tout WAR in baseball but want to dismiss all the obviously ridiculous rankings that it represents. 

And still you're using stats gained while a player isn't playing the position you're claiming the stats represent he's better at. 

Either way, I'm out on this discussion. 

^^^This is your response to me saying No...Tay Weaver is not our best player, but he has been good when he's been out there?

 

I didn't think it needed to be said, but Yes agreed ...Weaver shouldn't be playing Center. haha now i have to go clean up the coffee you made me spit onto my keyboard.

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1 minute ago, glazedandconfused said:

^^^This is your response to me saying No...Tay Weaver is not our best player, but he has been good when he's been out there?

 

I didn't think it needed to be said, but Yes agreed ...Weaver shouldn't be playing Center. haha now i have to go clean up the coffee you made me spit onto my keyboard.

Well then lets just take guards. Jimerson is significantly better than Goodwin and Jacobs is a little better but close, so maybe we can call them equal. They all play significant minutes so I can't imagine the ranking is wrong. 

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14 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

Well then lets just take guards. Jimerson is significantly better than Goodwin and Jacobs is a little better but close, so maybe we can call them equal. They all play significant minutes so I can't imagine the ranking is wrong. 

The stat literally said Goodwin has been better than Jimerson and Jacobs... Weaver just hasn't played enough to take too much from his number. 

Offensively, yes you can say Jimerson/Weaver have played the best given they both have True Shooting %s of 62% . That doesn't mean they are the best offensive players...it just means they've been playing/shooting really well in the time they've been out there.

image.png.cc4374fdc27360336a4757e94efa23f6.png

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34 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

Clearly then we need to get him on the floor more. Maybe French needs to play a bit less so Weaver, Jimerson, and Jacobs can play more. Jimerson and Jacobs have taken quite a few shots and it clearly shows they are better than French. Have you let coach know of this? I can't imagine he wouldn't want to make some adjustments to playing time. 

In reality the rankings are flawed and don't tell the entire picture. It's just a stat to gleam a small amount of info from. It's like people who tout WAR in baseball but want to dismiss all the obviously ridiculous rankings that it represents. Using your offensive rankings the difference between Jacobs and French (clearly Jacobs being the better offensive player) is greater than the difference between French and Perkins ( just so everyone understands French is a better offensive player than Perkins but he is not better than Jacobs, Jimerson, or Goodwin. Jimerson is our best offensive player (as Weaver is an exception) and Jacobs is next a little better than Goodwin.)

And still you're using stats gained while a player isn't playing the position you're claiming the stats represent he's better at. 

 

1) I think the offensive/defensive zone ratings stats are helpful, but highly imperfect. They serve as a useful data point, but no reliable basketball analytics person would tell you that you can put too much stock in those numbers. For instance, I just checked KenPom and it looks like he has pretty different offensive ratings for our players than does BRef.

2) I don't want to derail the thread, but I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about WAR in baseball and would be curious to better understand what you mean. 

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