Neufeld?

[MB73]

Is it just me or are we always waiting for our bigs to "develop?' I will agree that Robe Loe developed. Ian Voyoukous was who he was when he came in and when he left. I would offer that he never really "developed" or he would have been selected in the NBA draft.

Names? Husak. Manning. Braun. Heinrich. Baniak. Pedersen. Barentine. Johnson. Mueller. And there is probably more. Now add Gillmann, Jolly, Agbeko and Neufeld. Seems like we (SLU) are always waiting for the "big man bus" to pull up to our curb.

All Crews fault, too.

[Taj79]

No, not Crews "fault." Just a trend that extends through this program for years, no matter the coach. Maybe both jump shots and big men come to SLU to die.

[brianstl]

I would argue that while guys like Heinrich, Pederson, David Robinson, Brown, Jamal Johnson and Baniak were not stars, they were serviceable bigs that could start on many tournament teams. Some were more than just serviceable.

[Billikenbooster]

Ian improved greatly while he was here. Ian was flat out awful as a freshman. He may not have been drafted, but he developed big time. He was a first team all-conference player. Heck, he was the starting center on a Euroleague championship team. He is the starting center on another Euroleague contender this season.

Ian improved away from SLU, as he was preparing for European Championship play. Heinrich improved after going to some 'Big Man' camp in Hawaii between freshman and sophomore year. He had a great game vs Illinois in the first bball game at the Dome.

Agree with statement big men don't get developed at SLU.

mhg

[CBFan]

If Loe struggled as a freshman and sophomore then I'm not quite sure how I'd describe what our current bugs are doing...

I always liked Rob Loe but I remember a game early in his junior year when he scored 1 point in a game. Rob missed one of the free throws and the crowed groaned in unison. Taj79 said it best that SLU is always waiting for the big man bus to arrive and that is true. You could see flashes of good things from Rob and like Conklin really brought it all together in his senior year and I am hoping one or two of them will work out and not be another John Manning. Now back to the thread I think Matt Neufeld looks the part and probably will develop into a good center. Matt needs to stop taking three pointers, improve his free throw shooting and gain some weight. I think that Matt needs more time on the floor and if there is a chance I think coach Crews will get him out there.

[majerus mojo]

Glossing over Conk in the improvements section, and to jimbo's point, I don't ever remember griping about FR WR

[White Pelican]

Yes. Both out of default. And neither were that good either as freshmen.

BS. Freshman Willie Reed would be starting on THIS team too.

[HoosierPal]

Rob Loe Year GP FG-A Pct. 3FG-A Pct. FT-A Pct. Reb/Avg A BL S Pts/Avg

2010-11 30 75-193 .389 32-95 .337 20-33 .606 106/3.5 23 20 16 202/6.7

2011-12 34 63-151 .417 34-97 .351 17-27 .630 100/2.9 21 17 15 177/5.2

2012-13 35 83-198 .419 29-92 .315 49-71 .690 120/3.4 42 10 15 244/7.0

2013-14 34 121-267 .453 38-124 .306 70-93 .753 194/5.7 67 41 30 350/10.3

Career 133 342-809 .423 133-408 .326 156-224 .696 520/3.9 153 88 76 973/7.3

Roe's numbers his freshman year are better than his sophomore numbers and very close to his junior stats.

Willie Reed Year GP FG-A Pct. 3FG-A Pct. FT-A Pct. Reb/Avg A BL S Pts/Avg

2008-09 32 97-176 .551 0-0 .000 53-97 .546 146/4.6 6 40 7 247/7.7

2009-10 35 176-300 .587 0-0 .000 83-175 .474 278/7.9 27 73 26 435/12.4

Totals 67 273-476 .574 0-0 .000 136-272 .500 424/6.3 33 113 33 682/10.2

[hsmith19]

Rob Loe struggled as a freshman and sophomore improved as a junior and was a fully developed center his senior year, it just takes time. Willie Reed showed so much as a freshman and sophomore always makes me think what could have been if he played for SLU all four years.

Loe was overly preoccupied with shooting the three his first couple years, but he still managed 20 blocks and 100+ boards (including 38 on the offensive end!) as a freshman. Not too shabby.

[hsmith19]

Like the others, WR played because we were the youngest team in the NCAA having had terrible prior recruiting and then having RM release our other bigs. Remember Knollmeyer, etc.

Barry Eberhardt was a senior on that team and came off the bench behind Conklin and Reed. So I'm not sure it's really true that the freshmen were only playing out necessity.

[MusicCityBilliken]

Loe was overly preoccupied with shooting the three his first couple years, but he still managed 20 blocks and 100+ boards (including 38 on the offensive end!) as a freshman. Not too shabby.

Loe's strength was his passing ability. He had the high/low down to perfection. One fortunate thing is we had players around him that could benefit from that.

[CBFan]

Loe was overly preoccupied with shooting the three his first couple years, but he still managed 20 blocks and 100+ boards (including 38 on the offensive end!) as a freshman. Not too shabby.

I agree not too shabby and you know the guy is on the court and is not invisible as some of our bigs have been when playing. Hoosier Pal put up Rob's numbers and those numbers are better than I thought. It seemed like Rob just was so much better in his senior year. Seeing Rob at his finest against NC State in overtime was fun to watch and I would love another recruit like him.

[thetorch]

The big men must have time to develop is a total fallacy. It is just people still trying to argue that this current roster is talented when it is clearly devoid of it.

Reed would have started on this team as a freshman easily. He was good, just foul prone. Conklin would have started as a freshman easily. He had trouble rebounding (he was never a good rebounder) but he shot 52% and started nearly every game. Sure these two got better but they were much better as freshman than this crop of sophomores are. Loe as a freshman might be a star on this team, considering he could get his shot off, unlike almost every other player we have.

More big men who would start on this team as freshman

Ellis

Jon Smith

Brett Thompson

We can keep going further back and add probably 10 more to the list.

Big men do take more time but you either have talent or you don't. Gillmann & Jolly aren't developing because there is nothing to develop. They belong on the list with Justin Johnson & Bryce Husak. Guys who came here without talent and therefore never got better.

Still lets quit rewriting history or making up our own stats to defend the players on this roster.

[billiken_roy]

The big men must have time to develop is a total fallacy. It is just people still trying to argue that this current roster is talented when it is clearly devoid of it.

Reed would have started on this team as a freshman easily. He was good, just foul prone. Conklin would have started as a freshman easily. He had trouble rebounding (he was never a good rebounder) but he shot 52% and started nearly every game. Sure these two got better but they were much better as freshman than this crop of sophomores are. Loe as a freshman might be a star on this team, considering he could get his shot off, unlike almost every other player we have.

More big men who would start on this team as freshman

Ellis

Jon Smith

Brett Thompson

We can keep going further back and add probably 10 more to the list.

Big men do take more time but you either have talent or you don't. Gillmann & Jolly aren't developing because there is nothing to develop. They belong on the list with Justin Johnson & Bryce Husak. Guys who came here without talent and therefore never got better.

Still lets quit rewriting history or making up our own stats to defend the players on this roster.

i totally agree.. thanks torch

[hsmith19]

Husak was sort of decent as a senior. Better than Manning, at least. If you're looking for an optimistic model for Gillmann, maybe you hope he improves under the basket to a Husak level as a senior, and still throws in a few threes a la Loe. But still, as a senior that still puts him behind where Loe, Reed, and all these others guys were as freshmen.

[Billiken Rich]

Husak was sort of decent as a senior. Better than Manning, at least. If you're looking for an optimistic model for Gillmann, maybe you hope he improves under the basket to a Husak level as a senior, and still throws in a few threes a la Loe. But still, as a senior that still puts him behind where Loe, Reed, and all these others guys were as freshmen.

I miss guys like Heinrich that could play good defense and sometimes scare the hell out of the opposition. Then again the "flagrant" fouls would've put him on the bench a bit....

[willie]

I miss Rich Niemann.

[Cowboy]

I miss Rich Niemann.

-he's at most home games, still tall, not fat, perhaps he could coach our bigs?

[bonwich]

I miss Rich Niemann.

So turn around some time and look over your left shoulder. He's still hard to miss.

[billikenfan05]

Husak was sort of decent as a senior. Better than Manning, at least. If you're looking for an optimistic model for Gillmann, maybe you hope he improves under the basket to a Husak level as a senior, and still throws in a few threes a la Loe. But still, as a senior that still puts him behind where Loe, Reed, and all these others guys were as freshmen.

Liked having Husak as a Senior because he was overrated on College Hoops 2k video game

[thetorch]

Husak was decent because Majerus put him in a position to succeed. He made him stay around the basket on defense, shoot jumpers and set screens. Even then he wasn't good.

Big Rich sits in 115 or 116. I don't know if he does it anymore but he used to play with other guys his age at Cross Keys Middle school on New Halls Ferry & Lindbergh every Tuesday or Wednesday night.

[Clock_Tower]

Okay. Here some comments and stats on WR. Read the attached box scores and draw your own conclusions.

First, I really liked Willie Reed, was glad he played for us and only wish he had been interested in being a student athlete more than only being an athlete because we would have had a special team had he and Kwamain played their JR year. Yes, it was nice that KM redshirted and returned to be part of our second NCAA Tourney team (Crews' interim year) and did not graduate/run out of eligibility the same time Conklin did; however, we could have had 4 NCAA Tourney teams, Also, had we been able to get Cody Ellis cleared by the NCAA earlier January, the year prior (2008-2009) also would have been an NCAA Tourney team (5 straight NCAA Tourney teams!!) instead of a CBI Finals year.Had either or both of these events occurred, the momentum behind the program would have started earlier, Chaifetz would have been filled a year earlier, 1 to 2 more years of NCAA Tourney money would have been produced, less problems and friction would have existed between RM and Fr. Biondi ... and our program would have been better off. What if.... Then, again, the Situation/WR's academic problems would have been the end for most SLU coaches -- but RM actually over came such a devastating blow to the basketball program and still got us to the NCAA Tourney and the game against Michigan State while leaving the team stocked for 2 more years of NCAA Tournament success with Crews at the helm.

Second, I would rather have WR the basketball player (not WR the student athlete) on this year's team ahead of Neufeld, Gillman, Jolly and Agbeko. Blocked shots, rebounds and an inside presence are items not found in a box score.

Third, I believe 7.7 points per game from a Freshman big is really good -- especially for a Freshman -- but Freshman do take time to develop and do have limitations. Also, I believe most of think of the Sophomore WR and/or what WR could have been his JR and SR years rather than what WR really was his Freshman year.

Fourth, here's some of the "negative" about one of our better bigs from his Freshman year -- approximately 1/2 the season of average to poor offensive production (WR did NOT put up 7.7 ppg each game):

4 games he played and only scored 2 points:

UMSL, Detroit, UMass and Dayton while playing 14, 9, 22 and 22 minutes per game

4 games he played and only scored 4 points:

UMBC, Xavier, GW and Temple while playing 26, 18, 22 and 23 minutes per game

2 games he played and only scored 5 points:

Nebraska, and Duquesne while playing 18 and 14 minutes per game

3 games he played and only scored 6 points:

Kent State, NCA&T and UD while playing 15, 18 and 29 points per game.

Fifth, it should go without saying but I will say it anyway that for every game WR scored under 7 points per game there are many games he scored more than 7 ppg to bring his Freshman year total up to the 7.7 ppg stat. Also, of course, there are more contributions a good player can and does make each game such as rebounds, blocked shots and defense. At the same time, I do recall have personal recollections of WR playing real one game and not so well the next game (typical of a freshmen). I also recall WR being "rusty" in the early going and all the comments on this Board because he had not played organized basketball in a long time having had to sit out his Senior year of high school basketball. I also recall WR getting pushed around and dominated by a few of the better, bigger, stronger and more veteran centers.

My above point is not to trash WR or take statistics out of context and twist them like Stan Kroenke apparently likes to do but simply to remind that even good players (WR) struggled while having their good moments as freshmen. did not give a consistent and quality effort each and every game and that Freshmen, especially bigs, do take longer to develop.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj09ofG65vKAhVJ-2MKHTRQCl0QFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slubillikens.com%2Ffls%2F27200%2FMBB%2F200809%2Fstats%2FTEAMSTAT.HTM%3F%26%26DB_OEM_ID%3D27200&usg=AFQjCNHfb5BZRSROFAzzDzQ2CIqKI0aAiA

[MB73]

Good points, Clock.

And I will add that WR probably would have lasted for many years at Mizzou... so much easier for jocks to get grades there.

[RiseAndGrind]

The big men must have time to develop is a total fallacy. It is just people still trying to argue that this current roster is talented when it is clearly devoid of it.

Reed would have started on this team as a freshman easily. He was good, just foul prone. Conklin would have started as a freshman easily. He had trouble rebounding (he was never a good rebounder) but he shot 52% and started nearly every game. Sure these two got better but they were much better as freshman than this crop of sophomores are. Loe as a freshman might be a star on this team, considering he could get his shot off, unlike almost every other player we have.

More big men who would start on this team as freshman

Ellis

Jon Smith

Brett Thompson

We can keep going further back and add probably 10 more to the list.

Big men do take more time but you either have talent or you don't. Gillmann & Jolly aren't developing because there is nothing to develop. They belong on the list with Justin Johnson & Bryce Husak. Guys who came here without talent and therefore never got better.

Still lets quit rewriting history or making up our own stats to defend the players on this roster.

Pay the man .

[hsmith19]

I don't think anybody ever accused Willie of being a perfect or even an overly consistent player when he was here. But he, along with Loe and all the others mentioned, is proof that freshman centers can and do start and make contributions. It's not anywhere near as unheard of as people have been claiming on here since this new class came in.