Billikens Bash

[thetorch]

Torch.

You are insane if you really think our talent level now equals the early Grawer days. I watched those teams and I watched last year's team. In short, you are wrong.

The worst teams in my lifetime are the pre 85 teams, 91-92, 04-05 and 14-15. The 04-05 squad beats last years team handily and I think the 91-92 beats them too. They would beat up on all the Grawer squads before pee wee, monroe, and roland. Do you think this years team could match up favorably with the 92-93 team? I don't at all.

I think you slept through last season clock tower. It was historically bad. The worst team since the Early Grawer years. I don't think it is getting better, and it may be worse. Doesn't make me insane in the least. On the contrary I have a firm grip on basketball reality. If we win more than 12 games Crews should get Coach of the year.

[Clock_Tower]

The worst teams in my lifetime are the pre 85 teams, 91-92, 04-05 and 14-15. The 04-05 squad beats last years team handily and I think the 91-92 beats them too. They would beat up on all the Grawer squads before pee wee, monroe, and roland. Do you think this years team could match up favorably with the 92-93 team? I don't at all.

I think you slept through last season clock tower. It was historically bad. The worst team since the Early Grawer years. I don't think it is getting better, and it may be worse. Doesn't make me insane in the least. On the contrary I have a firm grip on basketball reality. If we win more than 12 games Crews should get Coach of the year.

No. Last year's team/season was certainly horrible. IMO, what made last year soooooo bad was:

1. We assumed we had turned the corner after 3 straight NCAA tourneys

2. We assumed there would be a drop off and that new guys would need to step up -- but not extent and slope of the drop off

3. We assumed that key veterans/returners would be able to produce (not star): McBroom, Manning and Ash but only Ash produced -- and he produced differently and less than expected.

4. Last year's Sophs proved they still were not ready - and might never be (TL) or that they might only be role players

Also, apathy exists because it is doubtful that we will make a BIG jump from last year as we did following The Situation b/c:

1. Crews is at the helm instead of RM

]2. We have no KM ready to step in this year

At the same time, I believe that Roby, Malik and Bartley should be able to produce better and more consistently this year, that Ash will have a better year as well, that Crawford and Reggie (if they stay healthy) will produce more consistently and throughout the whole year and I am hopeful that Neufeld can play 25 minutes at the 5 and that Bishop can assume some of the PG duties distributing the ball. And while my optimism remains tempered, only Ash will be gone for next year's team. In short, I am expecting improvement this year with a better year the next.

[Cowboy]

At the same time, I believe that Roby, Malik and Bartley should be able to produce better and more consistently this year, that Ash will have a better year as well, that Crawford and Reggie (if they stay healthy) will produce more consistently and throughout the whole year and I am hopeful that Neufeld can play 25 minutes at the 5 and that Bishop can assume some of the PG duties distributing the ball. And while my optimism remains tempered, only Ash will be gone for next year's team. In short, I am expecting improvement this year with a better year the next.

-I concur with some of this and in less than two weeks we will have our first of some 30 odd looks to see what actually happens

-I hope our Sophs don't have the infamous Sophomore Slump, that could cause some bridges to see jumping action

-Clock, you did fail to mention the impact a more fierce Billiken will have on our foes, that should be worth several less points scored against a game.....at least at home - perhaps The Billiken needs to travel like the Hawk does

[3star_recruit]

No. Last year's team/season was certainly horrible. IMO, what made last year soooooo bad was:

1. We assumed we had turned the corner after 3 straight NCAA tourneys

2. We assumed there would be a drop off and that new guys would need to step up -- but not extent and slope of the drop off

3. We assumed that key veterans/returners would be able to produce (not star): McBroom, Manning and Ash but only Ash produced -- and he produced differently and less than expected.

4. Last year's Sophs proved they still were not ready - and might never be (TL) or that they might only be role players

Also, apathy exists because it is doubtful that we will make a BIG jump from last year as we did following The Situation b/c:

1. Crews is at the helm instead of RM

]2. We have no KM ready to step in this year

At the same time, I believe that Roby, Malik and Bartley should be able to produce better and more consistently this year, that Ash will have a better year as well, that Crawford and Reggie (if they stay healthy) will produce more consistently and throughout the whole year and I am hopeful that Neufeld can play 25 minutes at the 5 and that Bishop can assume some of the PG duties distributing the ball. And while my optimism remains tempered, only Ash will be gone for next year's team. In short, I am expecting improvement this year with a better year the next.

I wonder if Ash bulked up so he could play some 4 in a small lineup? That would alleviate the logjam at the 2/3.

[slu72]

A lot of the handwringing and anxiety about the upcoming season stems from the way we closed out last year. It seemed to a lot of us we just tossed in the towel. There appeared to be no offensive system, no tough defense, no determination to rebound, no foundation being established to build on. With the FR class of Evans, McCall, Jett, and Loe, which only one won more game than last year's FR laden squad, it looked as though a foundation was being established. Very few of us saw that happening last year. Instead, we saw an out of control train heading for a wreck. Whatever the reasons be it dissent from McB and Lancona or just plain inexperience, I didn't see any one player with the skills of DE, MM, or RL. Do the comparisons. Is Gillmann an RL in the making? Is Roby a budding Jordair? Bartley a taller McCall? Milik a more athletic Evans? To my untrained eye, no. Couple that with the fact that the basic fundamentals Rick drilled into his players were nowhere in evidence last year, and you have to come up with a less than optimistic outlook for this season. Oh, maybe we win a game or two more, which some will call progress but if we get those extra Ws with the same helter skelter offense, the same defensive flaws, and the lack of physicality on the boards those extra Ws will be the result of a cupcake schedule.

[cheeseman]

The worst teams in my lifetime are the pre 85 teams, 91-92, 04-05 and 14-15. The 04-05 squad beats last years team handily and I think the 91-92 beats them too. They would beat up on all the Grawer squads before pee wee, monroe, and roland. Do you think this years team could match up favorably with the 92-93 team? I don't at all.

I think you slept through last season clock tower. It was historically bad. The worst team since the Early Grawer years. I don't think it is getting better, and it may be worse. Doesn't make me insane in the least. On the contrary I have a firm grip on basketball reality. If we win more than 12 games Crews should get Coach of the year.

I would be shocked if we did not win 12 games. I will not be shocked if we do not improve as much as we need too.

[Old guy]

Leave it be, we assumed too much when we went to NCAA three years in a row. Ass U Me is the reality of the situation. All we have to do now is to support he team and hope they improve from last year.

[slu72]

Off seasons are hell. And the closer you get tip off it becomes that much hotter. Think the reason for this is posters are anxious to find out who were right and who were wrong.

[Clock_Tower]

A lot of the handwringing and anxiety about the upcoming season stems from the way we closed out last year. It seemed to a lot of us we just tossed in the towel. There appeared to be no offensive system, no tough defense, no determination to rebound, no foundation being established to build on. With the FR class of Evans, McCall, Jett, and Loe, which only one won more game than last year's FR laden squad, it looked as though a foundation was being established. Very few of us saw that happening last year. Instead, we saw an out of control train heading for a wreck. Whatever the reasons be it dissent from McB and Lancona or just plain inexperience, I didn't see any one player with the skills of DE, MM, or RL. Do the comparisons. Is Gillmann an RL in the making? Is Roby a budding Jordair? Bartley a taller McCall? Milik a more athletic Evans? To my untrained eye, no. Couple that with the fact that the basic fundamentals Rick drilled into his players were nowhere in evidence last year, and you have to come up with a less than optimistic outlook for this season. Oh, maybe we win a game or two more, which some will call progress but if we get those extra Ws with the same helter skelter offense, the same defensive flaws, and the lack of physicality on the boards those extra Ws will be the result of a cupcake schedule.

72

Good thoughts. And at the risk of being too optimistic, yes, I do think several of our guys compare favorably to the 2014 Class. Instead of Gillman, I believe Neufeld has the ability to compare favorably with RL though Neufeld may end up better on the interior and RL may end up better on the exterior. The size, strength and length and outside shooting of Bartley and Roby also appears to compare favorably with the much smaller guys, MM and JJ, neither of whom were great outside shooters. And as great of a player and heart shown by DE, yes, I think Malik has greater size and natural talent. These characteristics give me optimism and keeps me from declaring this one of the worst teams in Billiken history.

With all that said, the speed, quickness, heart and savvy basketball plays made by RL, DE, MM and JJ are hard to compare to the new guys. Admittedly, our guys have a long way to go to equal the Class of 2014 -- but then again, when the Class of 2014 was returning for their Soph season, I was looking forward to BC, CE, KM and possibly WR more so than them. Will one of our guys turn into the A10 Player of the Year? Maybe not but I sure would not have thought it would be JJ over RL, MM and DE either. And most importantly, the Class of 2014 may be one of the best classes to ever play for the Bills and therefore comparisons to such a great class is not really fair. We are looking to get back to the top of the A10 and make the NCAA Tourney again -- sooner than later -- and the best class in Billiken history is not needed to achieve that.

[SLU_Nick]

72

Good thoughts. And at the risk of being too optimistic, yes, I do think several of our guys compare favorably to the 2014 Class. Instead of Gillman, I believe Neufeld has the ability to compare favorably with RL though Neufeld may end up better on the interior and RL may end up better on the exterior. The size, strength and length and outside shooting of Bartley and Roby also appears to compare favorably with the much smaller guys, MM and JJ, neither of whom were great outside shooters. And as great of a player and heart shown by DE, yes, I think Malik has greater size and natural talent. These characteristics give me optimism and keeps me from declaring this one of the worst teams in Billiken history.

Blasphemy.

The only way that this line of thinking proves somewhat true is that the current players learned how to play suffocating defense over the summer. Roby is the only one to even show a flash of a defensive bone in his body. Bartley, Gillman and Malik were potentially the worst defensive players I've ever seen in a Bills jersey. I cannot even remember one time last season where I saw one of these 3 players show that they even had interest in playing defense. This, compounded with Crews lack of coach-up ability, added to the the glaringly negative reports from the open practices, cannot let me fall into this line of thinking.

And believe me, I am grasping at trying to find a positive outlook on this season. This only thing that will do it is if they magically, (and I mean like transform into the Monstars) come out as a different team.

It just cant be as bad as everything thinks its going to be...can it?

[cgeldmacher]

Look it is easy to say wait and see before judging. The problem with that is that we are coming off a pretty dismal performance last year. We saw little improvement throughout the year and in fact the play could actually be said to have gotten worse at the end. MY got a lot of playing time that in normal years he would not have seen anything close to that but he did generally make the best of his situation so good for him but even he tailed off once the other team targeted him because nobody could take the lead and thus take some pressure off him. We can debate the quality of the coaching performance of JC last year but I think the record and overall poor rankings of its play speaks for itself. This year JC has no excuses, he either gets real improvement or he needs to go. Will the school do that I have no idea but they better start thinking about how to proceed now just in case. '72, as far as the national scrutiny if we had not hired JC goes, that would have been just noise that would have passed in a day or so. Nobody would even remember who JC was once the new coach had been hired. If May let that influence him then he is not the one who should be leading the AD. You still have to do the right thing not the easiest.

Cheese,

I appreciate your thoughts, but directing this at May in completely unfair. He was put in a situation in which he had no choice but to keep Crews. Crews was Coach of the Year and we had a senior heavy team going into the next season. Everyone, including you, wanted us to maintain the system we had that the incoming seniors were comfortable with. Crews was the only choice for keeping the same system that had been successful for the seniors.

On the other hand, if May would have done as you suggested, dumped Crews and made a new hire, May would already have been fired by now if the team under performed the following season. Expectations were high. If he let the national Coach of the Year walk in favor of a new guy and the team slipped, May would have been lambasted by us and the local and national media. I say this even if the new guy would have been the right hire. Even if the new guy, whoever he would have been, was the best option, May would have always been the AD that fired the national Coach of the Year and made an already good team not as good by changing coaches on six very successful players right before their senior year.

Trying to suggest now that May had any sort of choice at the time is total revisionist history.

[TheChosenOne]

Trying to suggest now that May had any sort of choice at the time is total revisionist history.

Of course he had a choice, it just would have been a really bold decision to go another direction unless there was a really appealing candidate available that was found to have some interest in taking over the program (which I would assume it would have been an attractive job based on what Rick had built, but I have no idea who was available at the time and would have been interested). I would assume quality leaders are those who are willing to make just those types of tough decisions that may be unpopular on the surface, but best for the program in the long-term.

I remember having the discussion with friends back then and on this board and the consensus was: 1) SLU likely has to hire Crews based on the success he had as the interim head coach and 2) Crews is not the right guy to lead us beyond the next season. Talking about it now, it seems foolish that likely the majority of our fan base felt this way (Crews was not the right guy to lead us long-term), yet we truly believed May had no other option but to hire Crews. It doesn't seem logical, we knew Crews would fail long-term, yet he had to be hired?

I guess it doesn't matter at this point, if we don't see a lot of improvement this season, Crews and May could be updating their resumes this spring (although Crews is essentially building his retirement fund here at SLU).

[Clock_Tower]

Blasphemy.

The only way that this line of thinking proves somewhat true is that the current players learned how to play suffocating defense over the summer. Roby is the only one to even show a flash of a defensive bone in his body. Bartley, Gillman and Malik were potentially the worst defensive players I've ever seen in a Bills jersey. I cannot even remember one time last season where I saw one of these 3 players show that they even had interest in playing defense. This, compounded with Crews lack of coach-up ability, added to the the glaringly negative reports from the open practices, cannot let me fall into this line of thinking.

And believe me, I am grasping at trying to find a positive outlook on this season. This only thing that will do it is if they magically, (and I mean like transform into the Monstars) come out as a different team.

It just cant be as bad as everything thinks its going to be...can it?

Gillman is not even mentioned by me and, BTW, there was not much defense played by JJ, MM, DE or RL their first year either. And if we had to rely on the 4 their Soph season, it would have been a better but not that good of a year.

But you are right, if RM returned as our coach this year, I would be less concerned bc his teams proved that the sum of the parts were much less than the whole. In short, none of the 4 were all that close to being nba talent. Great college and low level pro only. Just give the young kids a chance.

[ACE]

Of course he had a choice, it just would have been a really bold decision to go another direction unless there was a really appealing candidate available that was found to have some interest in taking over the program (which I would assume it would have been an attractive job based on what Rick had built, but I have no idea who was available at the time and would have been interested). I would assume quality leaders are those who are willing to make just those types of tough decisions that may be unpopular on the surface, but best for the program in the long-term.

I remember having the discussion with friends back then and on this board and the consensus was: 1) SLU likely has to hire Crews based on the success he had as the interim head coach and 2) Crews is not the right guy to lead us beyond the next season. Talking about it now, it seems foolish that likely the majority of our fan base felt this way (Crews was not the right guy to lead us long-term), yet we truly believed May had no other option but to hire Crews. It doesn't seem logical, we knew Crews would fail long-term, yet he had to be hired?

I guess it doesn't matter at this point, if we don't see a lot of improvement this season, Crews and May could be updating their resumes this spring (although Crews is essentially building his retirement fund here at SLU).

During Crews' interim season, I was consistently advocating that SLU find a different permanent coach after the season, BUT after the team won the conference title, won the conference tournament, earned a #4 seed in the tournament AND JC won National Coach of the Year, I came to grips with the fact that May didn't really have much of a choice but to retain Crews. It's easy to talk tough about how May should have made the bold move and gone in a different direction, but come on. Let's deal in reality. How many AD's would have gotten rid of a coach who just delivered one of the best seasons in school history?

[BigMouthBilliken]

But a 5 year contract? A little excessive

[TheChosenOne]

During Crews' interim season, I was consistently advocating that SLU find a different permanent coach after the season, BUT after the team won the conference title, won the conference tournament, earned a #4 seed in the tournament AND JC won National Coach of the Year, I came to grips with the fact that May didn't really have much of a choice but to retain Crews. It's easy to talk tough about how May should have made the bold move and gone in a different direction, but come on. Let's deal in reality. How many AD's would have gotten rid of a coach who just delivered one of the best seasons in school history?

I am not talking tough, I just find it amusing that almost all of us seem to agree that May had no other choice but to hire Crews yet most of us did not think he was the right hire for the program beyond the one season. Those two things don't really add up. And to go 5 years does seem like a mistake given what most of us agree on (Crews had to be given the job and he was not a good candidate long-term).

I don't want to turn this into another round of arguments, but we can certainly put the success that Crews enjoyed in his interim season into the proper context that would certainly not give him all of the credit for that team's success. 5 months from now we will be able to have a better discussion on this topic with a little more certainty with respect to what Crews is or isn't building here.

[slu72]

A bold move by May would be if by the middle of January we are 5-11 and still playing like the Three Stooges to fire him right then. Promote an AC to interim coach and say we are starting our search immediately so there's no question the staff is outta here as well. This should send a message to fans, backers, potential recruits, and possible candidates SLU is f$&@ing serious about getting back to where we were in 2014. If May hangs on until the end of the season and then takes the typical SLU approach, ie 3 months to fire and hire, the program will be screwed for an extra year or two. We should have a primary offer ready with some backup offers ready the day after the National Championsip game.

That said, Jimbo stands a better chance of nailing that OU cheerleader than the above taking place.

[JMM28]

A bold move by May would be if by the middle of January we are 5-11 and still playing like the Three Stooges to fire him right then. Promote an AC to interim coach and say we are starting our search immediately so there's no question the staff is outta here as well. This should send a message to fans, backers, potential recruits, and possible candidates SLU is f$&@ing serious about getting back to where we were in 2014. If May hangs on until the end of the season and then takes the typical SLU approach, ie 3 months to fire and hire, the program will be screwed for an extra year or two. We should have a primary offer ready with some backup offers ready the day after the National Championsip game.

That said, Jimbo stands a better chance of nailing that OU cheerleader than the above taking place.

I can't see how May gets a chance to hire the next coach if Crews is fired. His job security should be based on the mens basketball program and then everything else. It is great to win and make great hires in the non revenue sports (every other sport), but mens basketball is powering that ship.

[brianstl]

Gillman is not even mentioned by me and, BTW, there was not much defense played by JJ, MM, DE or RL their first year either. And if we had to rely on the 4 their Soph season, it would have been a better but not that good of a year.

But you are right, if RM returned as our coach this year, I would be less concerned bc his teams proved that the sum of the parts were much less than the whole. In short, none of the 4 were all that close to being nba talent. Great college and low level pro only. Just give the young kids a chance.

We ranked 35th in the country in defense when MM, DE, JJ, and RL were freshmen. Was that all because of them? No, but they did play a big part in it.

We finished 198th in defense last season

[slu72]

That high, eh?

[TheChosenOne]

We ranked 35th in the country in defense when MM, DE, JJ, and RL were freshmen. Was that all because of them? No, but they did play a big part in it.

We finished 198th in defense last season

Don't bring numbers into this....

[showthebill]

Crews - 3 years, .653 winning percentage, 66-35 overall SLU record

Majerus - 5 years, .579 %, 95-69

Spoon - 7 years, .575 %, 122-90

Romar - 3 years, .537 %, 51-44

Sodie - 5 years, .519%, 80-74

Eddie Hickey ain't coming back. Is Ron Coleman still alive? Let's get him back so he can improve on his 7 win, 0.259 win % season.

This is a clown post.

[cheeseman]

May could not have fired JC in the middle of last year after just giving him a 5 yr contract the year before. No, he was stuck but he has only himself to blame. I still contend that he did not have feel obligated to hire JC. Look at the WI AD did when Brad was the interim, he made a bold move even though WI - I believe - went to the NCAA after the head coach quit early in the season but the AD decided to go bold and look what he got. Who on this board would not want the way that turned out for WI. If JC fails, then so does May. We will find out just how much our current President values athletics.

[Dwayne's_World]

May could not have fired JC in the middle of last year after just giving him a 5 yr contract the year before. No, he was stuck but he has only himself to blame. I still contend that he did not have feel obligated to hire JC. Look at the WI AD did when Brad was the interim, he made a bold move even though WI - I believe - went to the NCAA after the head coach quit early in the season but the AD decided to go bold and look what he got. Who on this board would not want the way that turned out for WI. If JC fails, then so does May. We will find out just how much our current President values athletics.

Agreed. Successful sports programs/organizations always start from the top down.

[Old guy]

The real issue with all of this speculation is that it is not known how high the "top" is in this case, meaning the athletic department and the basketball program.