RUBillsFan Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 7 hours ago, BillsBeliever!!! said: The reason we shot good from the line tonight was because French was out and Goodwin only shot 3 times (1-3). The rest of the team is at least decent from the line but most of our FTs come from JG and HF which brings the average way down This plus Collins who had been below 50% was 4-4 from the line. FWIW I think Collins can probably shoot 60-70% based on HS stats and his was below 50% was just a small sample fluke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old guy Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Looking at what Hargrove brought into the game last night, his ability to score, his FT shooting, and his ability to add fire to the team's effort, I think we might have won the game against Auburn if he had been played instead of Weaver. drkelsey55 and Spoon-Balls like this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CenHudDude Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 I'm afraid Auburn would have been able to score at will against Hargrove. I believe Coach Ford feels the same way, and that is why he didn't play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old guy Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 I believe that during the comments made by Ford after the game last night, he apologized to Hargrove for not using him against Auburn. He said he would be used from now on. Ford apparently saw the need to publicly acknowledge he was wrong about not using Hargrove against Auburn. BillsMafia, drkelsey55 and slufanskip like this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierPal Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 I believe 10 of Hargrove's 13 made field goals this season are dunks. Fun to watch and gets the crowd excited, but how many of those will he get v Langevine, Osunniyi, Toppin, Santos-Silva, Hughes, Wilson, etc. I would like to see more of a 10 to 15 feet jumper. His two 3 point attempts to date, well, I'm not sure either hit iron. We need Hargrove on the floor, but we need more than dunks. His rebounding is certainly a plus and that alone warrants game time, particularly when either French or Goodwin are on the bench. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUBillsFan Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 4 minutes ago, HoosierPal said: His rebounding is certainly a plus and that alone warrants game time, particularly when either French or Goodwin are on the bench. I see that he got 7 in the box score, but I actually thought Hargrove was kind of weak on the boards especially offensive boards last night. There were a few on the offensive end where he got his hands on it, but failed to secure it and Maryville ended up with it. There was of course an awful display of defensive rebounding where he I guess mis-timed his jump or something and the ball bounced off his hands and out of bounds despite no pressure at all from Maryville. He isn't credited with any turnovers so I guess they counted this as a "team" offensive rebound for Maryville instead. I'd say that his total had more to do with him mostly defending the paint than him being a particularly great rebounder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsMafia Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 I think a significant point is being looked over here: free throw shooting, although a natural talent for some players, is a teachable skill. Ford has the ability to correct this by pumping up the free throw shooting during practice. If there's no time during practice, get them in the gym at night during their free time. There's no reason for the free throw percentage to be under 70%!!!!!!! I don't even think 75% is too much to ask. Ford must be held accountable. Common sense here, guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 19 minutes ago, RUBillsFan said: I see that he got 7 in the box score, but I actually thought Hargrove was kind of weak on the boards especially offensive boards last night. There were a few on the offensive end where he got his hands on it, but failed to secure it and Maryville ended up with it. There was of course an awful display of defensive rebounding where he I guess mis-timed his jump or something and the ball bounced off his hands and out of bounds despite no pressure at all from Maryville. He isn't credited with any turnovers so I guess they counted this as a "team" offensive rebound for Maryville instead. I'd say that his total had more to do with him mostly defending the paint than him being a particularly great rebounder. It wouldn't be a t/o for him because it hit his hand last before going out of bounds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlebill Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 19 minutes ago, BillsMafia said: being looked over .............. free throw shooting, <div class="tenor-gif-embed" data-postid="14191231" data-share-method="host" data-width="100%" data-aspect-ratio="1.447674418604651"><a href="https://tenor.com/view/james-franco-fist-time-just-hang-in-there-gif-14191231">James Franco Fist Time GIF</a> from <a href="https://tenor.com/search/jamesfranco-gifs">Jamesfranco GIFs</a></div><script type="text/javascript" async src="https://tenor.com/embed.js"></script> BillsMafia likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsMafia Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Not exactly... To clarify, the notion that they would have to give up another part of their game, ex. "bully ball," to become better at free throws makes as little sense as blaming the players instead of the coach for their FT woes... 9 minutes ago, Littlebill said: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiseOfTheBillikens Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 27 minutes ago, BillsMafia said: I think a significant point is being looked over here: free throw shooting, although a natural talent for some players, is a teachable skill. Ford has the ability to correct this by pumping up the free throw shooting during practice. If there's no time during practice, get them in the gym at night during their free time. There's no reason for the free throw percentage to be under 70%!!!!!!! I don't even think 75% is too much to ask. Ford must be held accountable. Common sense here, guys! If only this were remotely true rgbilliken likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billikenfan05 Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 30 minutes ago, BillsMafia said: I think a significant point is being looked over here: free throw shooting, although a natural talent for some players, is a teachable skill. Ford has the ability to correct this by pumping up the free throw shooting during practice. If there's no time during practice, get them in the gym at night during their free time. There's no reason for the free throw percentage to be under 70%!!!!!!! I don't even think 75% is too much to ask. Ford must be held accountable. Common sense here, guys! First post rant about a topic beaten to death that’s telling the board they’re stupid. Pretty bold. rgbilliken likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 20 minutes ago, BillsMafia said: I think a significant point is being looked over here: free throw shooting, although a natural talent for some players, is a teachable skill. Ford has the ability to correct this by pumping up the free throw shooting during practice. If there's no time during practice, get them in the gym at night during their free time. There's no reason for the free throw percentage to be under 70%!!!!!!! I don't even think 75% is too much to ask. Ford must be held accountable. Common sense here, guys! Common sense would say going from the worst f/t shooting team in D1 to top 50 isn't going to happen. You say no reason to be under 70%, however, over half of D1 teams are under 70%. From someone who has given private shooting lessons to many kids ranging from 5th grade girls to a guy in college, I also believe it is a teachable skill. However, it's not a quick or easy fix during a season where only so much time can be given to that skill. If the Bills could shoot 65-70% for the rest of the way, I'd be ecstatic and it seems possible. I don't know if the NCAA rules allow it but if I was MFGOOD and HAS (both their names get all caps from me from here on out) and it's allowed I'd find a way to hire a private shooting coach as it truly is the skill that can take both their games to the next level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old guy Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 52 minutes ago, HoosierPal said: I believe 10 of Hargrove's 13 made field goals this season are dunks. Fun to watch and gets the crowd excited, but how many of those will he get v Langevine, Osunniyi, Toppin, Santos-Silva, Hughes, etc. I would like to see more of a 10 to 15 feet jumper. His two 3 point attempts to date, well, I'm not sure either hit iron. We need Hargrove on the floor, but we need more than dunks. His rebounding is certainly a plus and that alone warrants game time, particularly when either French or Goodwin are on the bench. First of all we are going to find out the answers to these questions during the rest of this season. Off the top of my head, Hargrove brings a lot to the table: his athleticism, his dunking (which energizes the team), his rebounding, his FT shooting ability, his speed and ability to be in the right place at the right time, and finally the fact that his presence out there makes the team play better and harder. Hankton and Jacobs plainly do not have this energizer effect upon the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUBillsFan Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 45 minutes ago, slufanskip said: It wouldn't be a t/o for him because it hit his hand last before going out of bounds I understand why it wasn't a turnover in the box score and why it would be a slippery slope to call it anything else. Normally when that situation happens (ball goes off defensive rebounders hand(s) and out of bounds) they're rebounding in traffic and never actually get possession. in this case, there was no traffic at all, Hargrove just missed it / knocked it out of bounds without any competition. Bills should have had possession easily, but it went to Maryville. Result is the same as a turnover. It was more similar to Hargrove grabbing the board and dribbling off his foot (turnover) than your traditional team offensive rebound situation. It's similar to OFs in baseball not getting an error on balls that they misjudge. You can't give them an error if they don't even touch the ball before it hits the ground, but the result is the same as an error. Not trying to take away from Hargrove's great game overall. Just a weird stat keeping situation. slufanskip likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheltiedave Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 52 minutes ago, Old guy said: First of all we are going to find out the answers to these questions during the rest of this season. Off the top of my head, Hargrove brings a lot to the table: his athleticism, his dunking (which energizes the team), his rebounding, his FT shooting ability, his speed and ability to be in the right place at the right time, and finally the fact that his presence out there makes the team play better and harder. Hankton and Jacobs plainly do not have this energizer effect upon the team. Every plAyer that scores 27 points and shoots 7/8 from the ft line makes the team play better and harder. Just saying... It doesn’t even take 20 pts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old guy Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 That is true Sheltiedave. This may be one of the reasons that Hankton, and Jacobs have a flattening effect on the team. Hargrove may be many things at the same time, one of them being a crowd pleasing entertainer. He will go far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 2 hours ago, BillsMafia said: I think a significant point is being looked over here: free throw shooting, although a natural talent for some players, is a teachable skill. Ford has the ability to correct this by pumping up the free throw shooting during practice. If there's no time during practice, get them in the gym at night during their free time. There's no reason for the free throw percentage to be under 70%!!!!!!! I don't even think 75% is too much to ask. Ford must be held accountable. Common sense here, guys! I noticed that this is only your 2nd post. I can assure you that Ford has spent lots of time devoted to improving the FT shooting over the time he has been here. The problem is not that it is easy to teach so if they can not shoot them efficiently then it must be he is not teaching it - it has been noted many times before, you have to recruit better FT shooters. Saying it is teachable so easy to solve is just simplistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Old guy said: First of all we are going to find out the answers to these questions during the rest of this season. Off the top of my head, Hargrove brings a lot to the table: his athleticism, his dunking (which energizes the team), his rebounding, his FT shooting ability, his speed and ability to be in the right place at the right time, and finally the fact that his presence out there makes the team play better and harder. Hankton and Jacobs plainly do not have this energizer effect upon the team. just a fyi from my perspective. if you think we are going to get anywhere near last night's hargrove the rest of the year you are likely in for quite a disappointment. cant stress enough how under the standard maryville is. i'd be extremely satisfied if he does a 1/3 of that per game. i'm still not convinced he will even get decent floor time with the defense he exhibited last night and how much a stickler ford is for defense, focus and effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgstl Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 According to ESPN we're shooting 55% from FT line. If true, we're no longer dead last and moved up 1 spot!!!! rgbilliken and Billiken Rich like this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 2 hours ago, Sheltiedave said: Every plAyer that scores 27 points and shoots 7/8 from the ft line makes the team play better and harder. Just saying... It doesn’t even take 20 pts. We could call it the Troy Robertson rule. Or is he the exception? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheltiedave Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 It was funny watching opposing teams panic for the next five games or so, anytime he got the rock at the 3 pt line. Hopefully Hargrove welds 15 pounds of muscle on his frame, dials in his defensive skills, gains confidence in his midrange jumper, and learns to set the baseline screens that will free him up for cuts to the rim as well. If he pops on these, we’ll hit at least round 2 next year. SLU_Lax likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old guy Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 3 hours ago, billiken_roy said: just a fyi from my perspective. if you think we are going to get anywhere near last night's hargrove the rest of the year you are likely in for quite a disappointment. cant stress enough how under the standard maryville is. i'd be extremely satisfied if he does a 1/3 of that per game. i'm still not convinced he will even get decent floor time with the defense he exhibited last night and how much a stickler ford is for defense, focus and effort. I agree we are not going to get this degree of production out of Hargrove every game he plays in. This will depend upon many factors. However, I am pretty certain that we will get more out of him than out of Hankton regardless. Besides, Hargrove will not be frozen at the current level of capability, he will improve with every game (as Bell is doing), by the end of the season he will not be the same Hargrove that played against Maryville. I am sure you agree with that. SLU_Lax likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted December 19, 2019 Author Share Posted December 19, 2019 10 hours ago, wgstl said: According to ESPN we're shooting 55% from FT line. If true, we're no longer dead last and moved up 1 spot!!!! We have moved up to 55.4%...up 2.9% after the last game...an amazing move this far into the season in just 1 game. Unfortunately, the bottom feeders ahead of us also moved up.....sadly we are still in last place at 353 according to 3 data sources I use. We were in a deep hole...the good news is we have closed the gap to less than 1%. My estimate is ...assuming other teams stay approximately where they are currently at....we need to shoot 66%( doable) at KSU to no longer be a cellar dweller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUBillsFan Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 7 hours ago, The Wiz said: We have moved up to 55.4%...up 2.9% after the last game...an amazing move this far into the season in just 1 game. Unfortunately, the bottom feeders ahead of us also moved up.....sadly we are still in last place at 353 according to 3 data sources I use. We were in a deep hole...the good news is we have closed the gap to less than 1%. My estimate is ...assuming other teams stay approximately where they are currently at....we need to shoot 66%( doable) at KSU to no longer be a cellar dweller. It's a math problem because of French's FT woes and his propensity to get to the line. Despite missing last game French has still taken over 20.5% FTs. It is fairly well established 2 1/2 years into his career with a large sample of FTs that French is about a 35.6% FT shooter (his career avg). DI average this season is 69.9%. This means that with French dragging down our average the rest of the team will have to shoot better than 78.7% in order to get us up to average. That would be top 15 team shooting for the remaining members of the team. Richmond actually shoots 79.4% as a team. This is a fairly tall order. If you add in Goodwin shooting over 17.6% of our FTs even at his 56.6% career average (which seems to be generous given this season's 47.7% rate), you can see that it gets even more difficult. With French and Goodwin taking so many FTs at abysmal and bad %s respectively, the rest of the team would need to shoot over 85% to get us up to the 69.9% DI average. Currently, the #1 FT shooting team in DI is Western Illinois at exactly 85%, so the remaining members of our team outside of French & Goodwin essentially need to be slightly better than the best FT shooting team in order for us to be just average. Collins (54.8%) tied for 3rd most FT attempts with Perkins and Bell (50%) with 5th most FT attempts makes the math even more difficult. However, their averages aren't very big sample sizes and the roles game to game can fluctuate. Bottom line, it is going to be near impossible to fix our FT woes while French & Goodwin are key players. Given their style of play and poor FT %s, teams are going to put French & Goodwin on the line a lot. I don't think anyone would argue that they should play less or play a different style so they stop shooting so many FTs. The best we can hope for is that they improve their FT%s, but historically that is very difficult for players to do (see Shaq's career). The Wiz likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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