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NCAA and One and Done

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2 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

I got out of school with the no debt and all I did was go to class. I didn't have the responsibilites and physical wear and tear of a semi-pro athlete on top of it.

I understand but you also had to pay for your tuition and room and board - assuming you were not on a scholarship.  I get the idea of paying a stipend along with the free tuition and room and board.  The question is how much of a stipend.  What started this part of the thread was Coach K saying we have to pay college athletes to give them a choice of not having to go pro.  I also think that to just blow off the free tuition and room and board as not a big deal is wrong also.  It has a value and needs to be factored in to the overall stipend discussion in my opinion.

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Do you agree with the principles of individual freedom and self determination?  I do and therefore support it for players.   The sports will find a way to survive.   

 

The NCAA is a terrible organization regulating individuals and whole schools because they have a grip on the money.   They already protect the brand names. 

 

I'm not sure of all the consequences,  intended or otherwise but as long as there's TV deals,  licensing and sponsorships sports will continue.   Even if we let players profit off their most basic commodity their own image.   

It's not like SLU is setting the world on fire right now.   Maybe a shake up of business as usual helps us.

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6 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

I understand but you also had to pay for your tuition and room and board - assuming you were not on a scholarship.  I get the idea of paying a stipend along with the free tuition and room and board.  The question is how much of a stipend.  What started this part of the thread was Coach K saying we have to pay college athletes to give them a choice of not having to go pro.  I also think that to just blow off the free tuition and room and board as not a big deal is wrong also.  It has a value and needs to be factored in to the overall stipend discussion in my opinion.

You can be on academic scholarship and still have a job in the summer and still profit from whatever your non-academic talent is.  There aren't any limits.

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Charlie Brown going pro.

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41 minutes ago, DirtyRican said:

Charlie Brown going pro.

Losing their top 4 scorers Brown (pro), Kimble (transfer), Bynum (transfer), and Clover (graduation).  Absent adding a bunch of transfers who can play right away, St. Joes is going to be in rough shape next year (like SLU's 3rd year under Crews when we lost Jett, Evans, Loe, & McCall).

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Without sports, name me a college kid profiting from selling his likeness and image.  If some kid is out there selling goofy X-game stunts for shites and grins and cash on YouTube and people are paying for it, cash in.  But if he's Jordan Goodwin and the school says 'stop we have a basketball scholarship tied up in you,' then I say stop or rescind the scholarship.  I think $20k a year is ridiculous but I've been married to a school teacher for 37 years  who has yet to break $30k a year.  Here's a grand a month ---- learn how to bugdet.  

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Apparently you're not aware of YouTubers.  Our very own former player McBroom, making $ off nothing more than social media and product placement. It's a thing. 

Also why can't J Goodwin be in a Lou Fusz commercial?  Doesn't hurt his studies, he's an adult.

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2 hours ago, Taj79 said:

Without sports, name me a college kid profiting from selling his likeness and image.  If some kid is out there selling goofy X-game stunts for shites and grins and cash on YouTube and people are paying for it, cash in.  But if he's Jordan Goodwin and the school says 'stop we have a basketball scholarship tied up in you,' then I say stop or rescind the scholarship.  I think $20k a year is ridiculous but I've been married to a school teacher for 37 years  who has yet to break $30k a year.  Here's a grand a month ---- learn how to bugdet.  

Karlie Kloss is making millions off her likeness while a student at NYU.

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3 hours ago, Taj79 said:

Without sports, name me a college kid profiting from selling his likeness and image.  If some kid is out there selling goofy X-game stunts for shites and grins and cash on YouTube and people are paying for it, cash in.  But if he's Jordan Goodwin and the school says 'stop we have a basketball scholarship tied up in you,' then I say stop or rescind the scholarship.  I think $20k a year is ridiculous but I've been married to a school teacher for 37 years  who has yet to break $30k a year.  Here's a grand a month ---- learn how to bugdet.  

There are college students making over $20k a year just by blogging.

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brain:  you want to compare a super model to Zion Williamson?  Fine by me.  Zion wants to strut the walkways and catwalks of NYC during fashion week and beyond, go for it.  It has nothing to do with basketball knock 'em dead, make a killing.  My point is that without basketball, Zion is an unknown.  He needs basketball to get his start.  Did Karlie Kloss need anything more than incredibly good, God-given looks?  Nope.  She was likely doing that well before college entered the picture.  Can Zion sell his image on GQ Magazine?  Probably.  But not without a basketball bump.  Without basketball, there is no Zion.  I think Karlie will go on.  Zion made this morning's Top Ten plays on Sportscenter.  For what?  For dunking a basketball at a rec center.  The two -- basketball and Zion -- can't be separated.  And again, he's that good, keep him out of college.  He doesn't need it and college basketball really doesn't need him.

3star -- no issue with kids making $20k blogging a year.  I want to meet the idiots that pay for whatever it is they are selling.  Zion wants to blog over his choice of the latest movies, fashion picks, political expertise or whatever, go for it.  He wants to do "Hard Knocks on Duke basketball?"  I say not as a player.  And no money for that because he has a decided advantage to do so just by being on the team.  Ditto the O'Connell kid.  That creates an insider trading sort of scenario.  Not good.  Team Blue doesn't talk about fist fights in the locker room outside the locker room.  I'd offer that 50% of Zion's recognition will come from that Duke #1 uniform ---- ergo Duke stands a sizeable percentage.  But I do agree the kids .... al kids .... deserve a slice of that pie.  Neither LeBron nor Kobe is a producer in Hollywood without their basketball base. 

I have this year's Athlon's from my area.  Bruno Fernandez of Maryland and Jesse Govan of Georgetown were on my cover.  Did they get paid for that?  Most definitely no.  But both were in their college uniforms.  Without those uniforms, while we may know who they are because of our fandom, the general population won't.  Chicken?  Egg?  If the rumors are true and McBroom is making ton so fcash off his blog, there are too many people who need ot get a freaking life.  Butt, it's a great job if you can get it.

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19 minutes ago, Taj79 said:

brain:  you want to compare a super model to Zion Williamson?  Fine by me.  Zion wants to strut the walkways and catwalks of NYC during fashion week and beyond, go for it.  It has nothing to do with basketball knock 'em dead, make a killing.  My point is that without basketball, Zion is an unknown.  He needs basketball to get his start.  Did Karlie Kloss need anything more than incredibly good, God-given looks?  Nope.  She was likely doing that well before college entered the picture.  Can Zion sell his image on GQ Magazine?  Probably.  But not without a basketball bump.  Without basketball, there is no Zion.  I think Karlie will go on.  Zion made this morning's Top Ten plays on Sportscenter.  For what?  For dunking a basketball at a rec center.  The two -- basketball and Zion -- can't be separated.  And again, he's that good, keep him out of college.  He doesn't need it and college basketball really doesn't need him.

3star -- no issue with kids making $20k blogging a year.  I want to meet the idiots that pay for whatever it is they are selling.  Zion wants to blog over his choice of the latest movies, fashion picks, political expertise or whatever, go for it.  He wants to do "Hard Knocks on Duke basketball?"  I say not as a player.  And no money for that because he has a decided advantage to do so just by being on the team.  Ditto the O'Connell kid.  That creates an insider trading sort of scenario.  Not good.  Team Blue doesn't talk about fist fights in the locker room outside the locker room.  I'd offer that 50% of Zion's recognition will come from that Duke #1 uniform ---- ergo Duke stands a sizeable percentage.  But I do agree the kids .... al kids .... deserve a slice of that pie.  Neither LeBron nor Kobe is a producer in Hollywood without their basketball base. 

I have this year's Athlon's from my area.  Bruno Fernandez of Maryland and Jesse Govan of Georgetown were on my cover.  Did they get paid for that?  Most definitely no.  But both were in their college uniforms.  Without those uniforms, while we may know who they are because of our fandom, the general population won't.  Chicken?  Egg?  If the rumors are true and McBroom is making ton so fcash off his blog, there are too many people who need ot get a freaking life.  Butt, it's a great job if you can get it.

Taj, these aren't really college teams.  Wash U has a college team.  These are semi-pro teams housed on college campuses.  That's why have we multi-millionaire coaches, coaches with endorsement deals and multi-billion dollar broadcast deals.  That's why schools are paying for players and have been doing so for decades.  The whole thing is a charade and I have no idea why you're talking the school's side.

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29 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

Taj, these aren't really college teams.  Wash U has a college team.  These are semi-pro teams housed on college campuses.  That's why have we multi-millionaire coaches, coaches with endorsement deals and multi-billion dollar broadcast deals.  That's why schools are paying for players and have been doing so for decades.  The whole thing is a charade and I have no idea why you're talking the school's side.

i dont disagree with you, but this is what makes me sick.   if i didnt have my sports life wrapped up with the billikens, i would dump D1 college basketball completely.   but i cant leave my passion.  

there is just as much competition in the "lower" levels of college sports as P5 D1.   i believe we watch because of the competition fix it gives us and for the naive belief that there is some sense of purity to college sports compared to pro.   

so i believe that college basketball would be just fine without the near pros.   we would all still be as passionate as ever if another zion williamson never crosses the college screen again.   

if this wasnt true, EVERYONE would just watch nba basketball and not college.   afterall the worst player in the nba is still better than about 98% of all college players and whomever wins the ncaa national championship couldnt beat the knicks.   

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2 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

i dont disagree with you, but this is what makes me sick.   if i didnt have my sports life wrapped up with the billikens, i would dump D1 college basketball completely.   but i cant leave my passion.  

there is just as much competition in the "lower" levels of college sports as P5 D1.   i believe we watch because of the competition fix it gives us and for the naive belief that there is some sense of purity to college sports compared to pro.   

so i believe that college basketball would be just fine without the near pros.   we would all still be as passionate as ever if another zion williamson never crosses the college screen again.   

if this wasnt true, EVERYONE would just watch nba basketball and not college.   afterall the worst player in the nba is still better than about 98% of all college players and whomever wins the ncaa national championship couldnt beat the knicks.   

Then if the players are allowed to own their names and images, and if they get a little extra money, what changes? Why would that impact your institutional loyalty?

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I'm a strong supporter of a reasonable cash stipend because of the amount of time and hard work these kids have to put in for the benefit of their school and coaches. That said, the stipend has to be equal across the board, i.e. It can't be $5k per mo for a Duke player and $1k for a Billiken. 

As for endorsements, that's a real recruiting advantage for the biggies who get all the national TV exposure. I don't like that at all. 

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1 hour ago, Taj79 said:

brain:  you want to compare a super model to Zion Williamson?  Fine by me.  Zion wants to strut the walkways and catwalks of NYC during fashion week and beyond, go for it.  It has nothing to do with basketball knock 'em dead, make a killing.  My point is that without basketball, Zion is an unknown.  He needs basketball to get his start.  Did Karlie Kloss need anything more than incredibly good, God-given looks?  Nope.  She was likely doing that well before college entered the picture.  Can Zion sell his image on GQ Magazine?  Probably.  But not without a basketball bump.  Without basketball, there is no Zion. 

This is kinda dumb. Karlie can make money doing what she’s good at, but Zion can’t because... it’s a sport? She can sell her likeness for magazines but he shouldn’t be allowed to?

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31 minutes ago, slu72 said:

I'm a strong supporter of a reasonable cash stipend because of the amount of time and hard work these kids have to put in for the benefit of their school and coaches. That said, the stipend has to be equal across the board, i.e. It can't be $5k per mo for a Duke player and $1k for a Billiken. 

As for endorsements, that's a real recruiting advantage for the biggies who get all the national TV exposure. I don't like that at all. 

Don't couch it in terms of what is good or bad for big schools.   What is actually fair to the individual?  This is the United States and a person isn't allowed to sell their autograph?  If they do they might jeopardize their entire future in their chosen field?  

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Anyone remember Ben McLemore who was from STL, ended up at Kansas, had to sit for academic reasons, played a year, then was drafted by the Kings 7th overall? My sister in law was good friends with him when she was at KU and I remember her telling me about his mom's heat getting turned off while he was playing for one of the highest grossing NCAA programs, for one of the highest-paid coaches in america--and not getting paid himself--at Kansas. 

Oh yeah, and his AAU coach was paid $10,000 by a "sports mentoring organization" to "steer McLemore" toward them.

This is like, just my opinion, man, but I just...think that's wrong. Ben was generating revenue for KU, and not getting paid for it; meanwhile, the NCAA, Bill Self, KU as an institution, and his AAU coach are all making profit off of his free labor. 

Articles below about the level of poverty that Ben grew up in, and about his AAU coach getting paid:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/big12/2013/02/27/big-12-mens-college-basketball-kansas-jayhawks-ben-mclemore/1947401/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/big12/2013/05/04/kansas-jayhawks-ben-mclemore-darius-cobb/2131775/

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-I see a potential unintended consequence of this being that all of these benefits would then be taxable income, I am not sure the student getting a scholarship to study chemistry should have to pay taxes on the value of their scholarship because people want 15,000 athletes to use the college experience, just a thought

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2 minutes ago, rgbilliken said:

Anyone remember Ben McLemore who was from STL, ended up at Kansas, had to sit for academic reasons, played a year, then was drafted by the Kings 7th overall? My sister in law was good friends with him when she was at KU and I remember her telling me about his mom's heat getting turned off while he was playing for one of the highest grossing NCAA programs, for one of the highest-paid coaches in america--and not getting paid himself--at Kansas. 

Oh yeah, and his AAU coach was paid $10,000 by a "sports mentoring organization" to "steer McLemore" toward them.

This is like, just my opinion, man, but I just...think that's wrong. Ben was generating revenue for KU, and not getting paid for it; meanwhile, the NCAA, Bill Self, KU as an institution, and his AAU coach are all making profit off of his free labor. 

Articles below about the level of poverty that Ben grew up in, and about his AAU coach getting paid:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/big12/2013/02/27/big-12-mens-college-basketball-kansas-jayhawks-ben-mclemore/1947401/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/big12/2013/05/04/kansas-jayhawks-ben-mclemore-darius-cobb/2131775/

-he should have been able to jump right to the NBA

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1 hour ago, rgbilliken said:

Anyone remember Ben McLemore who was from STL, ended up at Kansas, had to sit for academic reasons, played a year, then was drafted by the Kings 7th overall? My sister in law was good friends with him when she was at KU and I remember her telling me about his mom's heat getting turned off while he was playing for one of the highest grossing NCAA programs, for one of the highest-paid coaches in america--and not getting paid himself--at Kansas. 

Oh yeah, and his AAU coach was paid $10,000 by a "sports mentoring organization" to "steer McLemore" toward them.

This is like, just my opinion, man, but I just...think that's wrong. Ben was generating revenue for KU, and not getting paid for it; meanwhile, the NCAA, Bill Self, KU as an institution, and his AAU coach are all making profit off of his free labor. 

Articles below about the level of poverty that Ben grew up in, and about his AAU coach getting paid:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/big12/2013/02/27/big-12-mens-college-basketball-kansas-jayhawks-ben-mclemore/1947401/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/big12/2013/05/04/kansas-jayhawks-ben-mclemore-darius-cobb/2131775/

he now makes over $5.4 million a year.   so mom is likely getting her heating bill paid now.  

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18 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

he now makes over $5.4 million a year.   so mom is likely getting her heating bill paid now.  

I sure hope so because this is ice cold.

Potential future earnings don't pay the bills today, is all.

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Why does amateur basketball need to change? Why not educate these kids that are trying to make in professional basketball that they can go overseas and make money? 

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20 minutes ago, billikenfan05 said:

Why does amateur basketball need to change? Why not educate these kids that are trying to make in professional basketball that they can go overseas and make money? 

My problem with the first question is as follows: The NCAA tournament brought in $1bn in 2017 in revenue (the last year for which I could find data).  Coaches of big programs make mid six figures per year at the very least. AAU coaches, schools, players' families, and shoe companies are all exchanging money and taking their cuts. My problem isn't that the players of revenue sports are practicing and playing in games without pay, as the rest of college athletes do...My problem is that they are doing so, and not getting paid, while generating profit for so many other people. And to top it all off, they're not even allowed to make one cent when the school sells jerseys with their numbers on them, or endorse a shoe brand, or a local restaurant, or sell their autographs, etc.

As to the second question, hard to argue with that.

But the questions are two sides of the same coin: (1) what's best for the NCAA? and (2) what's best for the players?

Answers to each of the above questions are very different.

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30 minutes ago, billikenfan05 said:

Why does amateur basketball need to change? Why not educate these kids that are trying to make in professional basketball that they can go overseas and make money? 

The NCAA and the schools have the moral high ground to do this as soon as they as they do away with the corporate endorsement deals, the mult-billion dollar broadcast deals and multi-millionaire coaches.  They're in no position to lecture anyone on anything.

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6 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

The NCAA and the schools have the moral high ground to do this as soon as they as they do away with the corporate endorsement deals, the mult-billion dollar broadcast deals and multi-millionaire coaches.  They're in no position to lecture anyone on anything.

Who said the NCAA should be the one lecturing anyone? 

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