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[SShoe]

Just now, billiken_roy said:

we in southern illinois already feel the complete state control of chicago.   and deleting the electoral college would only take that to the next level as well.

Chicago has a FAR greater proportion of the state's population than coastal cities do of the country's population. For example, we in Missouri see the reverse of that.

[Old guy]

The real reason that Trump won the election was that the "undesirables" found someone they believed in and voted for him in large enough numbers. This is what happened in both Obama elections, huge numbers of people that had never felt represented at the White House got out of their houses and voted for him. An election should be something that affects each and every voter personally, otherwise why get off your rear and go vote? Why vote for the "lesser of two evils" which means casting your vote for someone you just think is less despicable than the other scu_bag? We live in a country where large numbers of people, for many different reasons, feel they are not part of the political process, feel their wishes and desires are not represented properly. I really think the use of the word "undesirables" may well have been a major cause for Hillary's loss.

Politics are best reflected in the eternal quote from LBJ: "If you cannot shake their hands, kiss their babies, sleep with their wives, and then vote against their wishes... what are you doing in politics?" Historically whenever the lower working classes have felt cheated by the elites and the political overlords, heads have rolled. It happened in 1917 to 1927 in the USSR, it happened in China, Laos, and it happened in France in 1789 and afterwards. We need a system that at least manages to keep the fiction that it is helping the working class, please get the distinction here between working classes and welfare classes.

[billiken_roy]

4 minutes ago, willie said:

Now you are putting your beliefs into this argument. I am sure others on this board violently disagree. How do you feel that your presidential vote is useless since you live in a Democratic state? 

we are only a democratic state because of chicago.   take cook county out of the equation and illinois is not.  it is an illustration of why we dont want a popular vote decision trigger as we lose everything statewide.    

[brianstl]

2 hours ago, cheeseman said:

That is what the Courts are for - you can not have the minority control the centers of governing power then why even bother to vote.

The courts shouldn't be where people go to results that should be done through legislation.

[billiken_roy]

this discussion is fruitless.   i am out.  

[willie]

1 minute ago, billiken_roy said:

we are only a democratic state because of chicago.   take cook county out of the equation and illinois is not.  it is an illustration of why we dont want a popular vote decision trigger as we lose everything statewide.    

But the point is you are not getting rid of Chicago and your presidential vote is useless. 

[drkelsey55]

We are not a democracy. The USA is a republic.

[Old guy]

No it is not fruitless, it is a reflection of ancient wisdom. For example: If your party supports a platform of robbing Peter (non Chicago IL) to pay Paul (Chicago), your party can count on Paul's full heart support.

[drkelsey55]

6 minutes ago, drkelsey55 said:

We are not a democracy. The USA is a republic.

Democracy vs. Republic. ... In a republic, a constitution or charter of rights protects certain inalienable rights that cannot be taken away by the government, even if it has been elected by a majority of voters. In a "pure democracy," the majority is not restrained in this way and can impose its will on the minority.

‎To eliminate the EC would require a constitutional convention to change it.

 

[LindellWest]

1 hour ago, Pistol said:

So people who live in rural areas deserve their count to vote more than people who live in cities? Got it.

Also, be sure not to click on Steve's link about the Electoral College's origins. Many of these "gods" were maybe more interested in preserving slavery than having a just voting system.

A Kamala Kelkar article?  Even a lazy google search will illuminate the fact that constitutional scholar wouldn't show up on her resume. Clear agenda, inherent bias, all fine, should be taken will a serious grain of salt.

The EC was and always has been a compromise between different groups. 

clumsy basketball analogy.  Don't eliminate the autobids ( 2 base EC votes)  from the NCAA tourney! I dont care that Syracuse and USC have a bunch of fans or large tv markets.  GO UMBC!

But more importantly GO BILLS

[Spoon-Balls]

40 minutes ago, Pistol said:

^This analogy works. (The EC is like going to a bad tiebreaker system when the game isn't tied.)

^This one does not.

Roy, you seem very concerned whether people in big cities care about people in small towns. But it wouldn't matter if people were represented proportionately and their votes counted the same. Right now the system is tilted heavily in favor of rural and exurban voters, who have shown repeatedly that they don't care about people in urban areas (even though there are more of us). I don't see why this is better.

Also, the states with successful urban centers have better health outcomes, better healthcare systems in general, better economic opportunities, better public transportation and public resources,  etc. I would rather have these states making the big decisions for this country than the states that can barely tread water economically.

But that is all beside the point. The important thing is that the majority should determine the future of the country, not the minority that perpetuates the “silent majority” myth.

[drkelsey55]

Urban centers like Chicago, Detroit, San Francisco??

[billikenfan05]

 

[Old guy]

3 minutes ago, Spoon-Balls said:

Also, the states with successful urban centers have better health outcomes, better healthcare systems in general, better economic opportunities, better public transportation and public resources,  etc. I would rather have these states making the big decisions for this country than the states that can barely tread water economically.

As you say Spoon that is a personal choice you have made based upon possibly valid reasons. I see no problem if you decided to vote for whoever you felt was closest to achieve this result.

[Old guy]

4 minutes ago, billikenfan05 said:

 

This is a kid well in his way of becoming an undesirable. 

[drkelsey55]

Steve, how does this compare to the PBS article?

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/diane-dimond/a-republic-or-a-democracy_b_6306120.html

PS: don't cre for the HUFF n Puff either

[moytoy12]

The 18-19 season can't get here soon enough. 

[Billiken Rich]

18 minutes ago, moytoy12 said:

The 18-19 season can't get here soon enough. 

Ran out of likes today........ +999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999

(which is also the national debt, whichever "fiscally responsible" party is in control of the US)

 

PS   The electoral college and gerrymandering and stalking horses and dark money and dossiers and hacking and lying and slander and libel and opposition research and hush money and collusion and congressional committees and fake news and sex and drugs and fraud and high crimes and misdemeanors and racism are all just dandy and wonderful if they benefit your team.  

I don't see anyone on the left crying about the fairness of the electoral college if situations were reversed.  At that point it would be a revered tradition and those on the right would be talking about amending the constitution.......

We are all whor-es for our team.  If we are honest we'll admit it.....

    

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

999

[slufan13]

I could google this but is there any research out there on how elections would have been impacted if every state split their electoral votes and actually cast their vote based on the results of their district?

[Old guy]

My apologies to everyone, I knew Hillary had used a word during the campaign that made a lot of people mad. I wrote the  word "undesirable" in my prior posts and this was erroneous. The word she used was "deplorable." Same kind of meaning, wrong word, very sorry my bad, my apologies to everyone.

[Billiken Rich]

1 minute ago, Old guy said:

My apologies to everyone, I knew Hillary had used a word during the campaign that made a lot of people mad. I wrote the  word "undesirable" in my prior posts and this was erroneous. The word she used was "deplorable." Same kind of meaning, wrong word, very sorry my bad, my apologies to everyone.

I'd much rather be undesirable than deplorable......

[billikenfan05]

2 minutes ago, Old guy said:

My apologies to everyone, I knew Hillary had used a word during the campaign that made a lot of people mad. I wrote the  word "undesirable" in my prior posts and this was erroneous. The word she used was "deplorable." Same kind of meaning, wrong word, very sorry my bad, my apologies to everyone.

Apology not accepted

[brianstl]

12 hours ago, SluSignGuy said:

I am also opposed to the Electoral College - but moreso for why it was established:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/electoral-college-slavery-constitution

 

1 hour ago, Pistol said:

So people who live in rural areas deserve their count to vote more than people who live in cities? Got it.

Also, be sure not to click on Steve's link about the Electoral College's origins. Many of these "gods" were maybe more interested in preserving slavery than having a just voting system.

I love Steve, but the article he linked to is complete BS.  Slave states had two-thirds of the population when the Constitution was ratified.  The electoral college actually diluted the power of slave states in favor of free states.  The electoral college and the 3/5's clause were both done increase the power of free states to entice them to ratify the Constitution.    Slaves states had around two thirds of the counted population at that time.  The electoral college reduced the power of the slave states in the Presidential election from almost 67% of the vote down to 60% of the vote.  The loss of power was even greater in the Senate where in 1792 the power of slave states was reduced from over 66% of the population to just over 53% of the Senate.

I think when people write these kind of things they just don't know or choose to forget that New York and New Jersey were slave states until well after they ratified the Constitution.

[TheChosenOne]

17 minutes ago, slufan13 said:

I could google this but is there any research out there on how elections would have been impacted if every state split their electoral votes and actually cast their vote based on the results of their district?

I am glossing over much of this discussion, but this would be interesting to see.

[almaman]

1 hour ago, LindellWest said:

But more importantly GO BILLS

Second that. Less than 10 weeks till first real game.