Very Interesting...

[brianstl]

1 hour ago, billiken_roy said:

that was at new mexico.   he went a long long time at champaign before going back.   

What did Illini fans expect?  I know they are legitimately insane, but Henson took over a program that prior to his arrival in Champaign had been to one NCAA tournament in 24 years.  The program Henson quit, New Mexico St, was actually a better basketball program than the Illini at the time.  They are a completely delusional fan base.  The same fan base that turned on the head coach who won the schools only two outright Big Ten titles in the past 70 years.

The frustrated SLU fans aren't asking for a Final Four team.  They just want to be a top 50 team once in a while so they can be a legitimate at large bid contender.  SLU has not once finished in the Pomeroy's top 50 in the the Ford era and has only once finished in the top 60. 

People talk about how fans were super patient with Bennett at St. Mary's and with Fitzgerald building the program that turned into the Gonzaga we have today.  Those were programs that where built in what at the time was a one bid conference and at schools that didn't provide anywhere close to the resources Travis has been given at SLU.  They aren't comparable situations.

I didn't want to get into this discussion today.  I wanted to enjoy the ride of what I hope is going to be a magical weekend.  I think we are going to win this thing and the whole topic will be dead.  That said, there have been some comparisons made that are just are crazy.  Nobody would have been happy if we told them when Travis was hired that seven seasons into Travis's tenure we wouldn't have one team finish inside the top 50.  Everyone back then would have said that we would be a failure.  These sunshine scenarios that aren't comparable to SLU are nothing but a whole bunch of cope.

Now the Billlikens are going to win this thing and make everything I just typed irrelevant by Sunday night.

[HenryB]

2 hours ago, Schasz said:

Roy...It would take me days to send you all the lover affair post on this website, but your welcome to go back and search for them. Trust me it won't take very long. You just went into a history book on the Illini. I earlier provided one of Gonzaga which I happen to believe is a MUCH better history as Gonzaga is in a league that is NOT Power 5 but in Mark Few they have  HC who I believe has a better than 50-50 chance of being in the HOF by the time his HC career is over. I see all the time the outstanding talent Ford supposedly recruits well if it is he sure as hell does not know how to coach it. Few on the other hand has built the Zags to a place where he not only gets looks from 5 Star players but actually gets them to friggin Spokane, WA. Heck just last year the 7 footer on their roster was rated the No. 1 recruit. Gonzaga one would hope with the super nice Chaifetz should be an example for the SLU hierarchy to want to attain. Won't happen with Travis Ford!!!

Only 3 exclamation points? Did your finger get tired???

[BANGheGOTit]

On 3/9/2023 at 1:12 PM, cgeldmacher said:

Randy Bennett has been at St. Mary's for 22 years.  In his first 8 seasons, St. Mary's only went to the NCAA tournament twice and only won more than 20 games 3 times.  If the fans had run him out of town because they he was not getting to the tournament enough or winning more than 20 games enought in those early years, they would not be enjoying the success they are having now.  In the 13 non-Covid years since those first 8, St. Mary's has been to the NCAA Tournament 7 times (counting this year).  This includes one Sweet 16 run and three consecutive years that they went to the NIT (this board would have run him off then too).

My point is that consistency and patience is what is required to get to the level of some of the teams that you mentioned. Folks who advocate for keeping Ford are not okay with mediocrity.  This is a BS sentiment that is getting old.  We all want SLU to get to the next level and then the level beyond that.  I just think being patient with a coach that has gotten us 4 twenty win seasons in his first 7 years as coach and one tournament appearance (after inheriting a dumpster fire) gives us a better chance to get where we want to be than starting over with an unknown.

I don't have a problem with posters who think its time to part ways with Ford.  You are all entitled to your opinion.  I just think it is too risky right now, and that our chances are better with Ford.  Please stop having a problem with myself and other posters whose opinion differs from yours.  Let's just all calm down.

“Please stop having a problem with myself and other posters whose opinion differs from yours.  Let’s just calm down”…that doesn’t go both ways?  You can’t have a different opinion from a core group of posters on here without these same people labeling you a troll!

So, you bring up coaches that have been at their program for 10,12,15 years…so it’s longevity that brings their success??  If that’s the case then you and the core group of boosters need to convince May to sign Travis to a 8 year extension asap!  Better keep Ford locked up for the next decade because revenue will go up and salaries will surely increase…lock him up on a cost saving deal of only $3m per.

As for myself, not speaking for others—if Travis would have shown “coaching ability”, the type of X’s and O’s Type of game he had yesterday—I think most Ford “haters” or “trolls” wouldn’t have a problem with Travis like many do (because he would have certainly won more games over his 7 season here with that kind of coaching).  We may get one or two games per season where we can actually say “exceptional job”.  Unless this is the new style of coaching for Travis (and I pray it is), there is nothing in his past to give any confidence that he will stick with it…we usually don’t even see it for a whole half, let alone a whole game.  I hope this is the new Travis and he proves people wrong.  I will gladly say he’s a quality coach if this is what we continue to see.  But to say sticking with him because it’s worked other places is premature—One good game doesn’t give me the confidence to think he will ever be the same in-game coach as the guys you mentioned.  If he takes this team into the NCAA tournament and continues this for another season, he may very well deserve a extension at that point.

[cgeldmacher]

2 hours ago, Schasz said:

Roy...It would take me days to send you all the lover affair post on this website, but your welcome to go back and search for them. Trust me it won't take very long. You just went into a history book on the Illini. I earlier provided one of Gonzaga which I happen to believe is a MUCH better history as Gonzaga is in a league that is NOT Power 5 but in Mark Few they have  HC who I believe has a better than 50-50 chance of being in the HOF by the time his HC career is over. I see all the time the outstanding talent Ford supposedly recruits well if it is he sure as hell does not know how to coach it. Few on the other hand has built the Zags to a place where he not only gets looks from 5 Star players but actually gets them to friggin Spokane, WA. Heck just last year the 7 footer on their roster was rated the No. 1 recruit. Gonzaga one would hope with the super nice Chaifetz should be an example for the SLU hierarchy to want to attain. Won't happen with Travis Ford!!!

That's fine.  If you want to use Gonzaga, let's go down that rabbit hole.  Mark Few did not start the success at Gonzaga, he has just maintained the success that was already there.  Before him was Monson, but Monson was only there two seasons.  Monson also did not create the success at Gonzaga.  The winning tradition at Gonzaga, the one we want to replicate, was started by Dan Fitzgerald.  Before Fitzgerald, Gonzaga had never been to the NCAA tournament.  Never as in not once it its history which goes back to 1907.

Let's look at what Fitzgerald did.  In 1985, Fitzgerald inherited at team that had gone 15-13 and 4-8 in conference the year before.  In his first 8 seasons as Gonzaga's head coach, he only got to 20 wins once (exactly 20 in 91-92) and never made the tournament.  In the 3 seasons from 93 to 96 Gonzaga had over 20 wins each season and went to their first ever NCAA tournament.  After the 96-97 season, Fitzgerald stepped down and turned the team over to his assistant Monson in a move that had been planned for over two years.  Monson used the momentum created by Fitzgerald to get to the Elite Eight in his 2nd season before moving on.  Few has been churning the wheels of success created by Fitzgerald and his assistant, and later head coach Monson, ever since.

If Gonzaga's fans had run Fitzgerald and his assistant Monson off in Fitzgerald's first 8 years of not much success, there is no Mark Few and no amazing Gonzaga tradition.

I guarantee that everyone who is advocating for keeping Ford will change their tune in a year or two if we arent seeing progress.  We are also not happy with the results this season and are questioning whether Ford is the guy that will get SLU where we want it to be.  We just believe that consistency is the way to go right now with a coach that has given us five consecutive 20 win seasons in non-Covid years.

[ACE]

23 hours ago, cgeldmacher said:

Randy Bennett has been at St. Mary's for 22 years.  In his first 8 seasons, St. Mary's only went to the NCAA tournament twice and only won more than 20 games 3 times.  If the fans had run him out of town because they he was not getting to the tournament enough or winning more than 20 games enought in those early years, they would not be enjoying the success they are having now.  In the 13 non-Covid years since those first 8, St. Mary's has been to the NCAA Tournament 7 times (counting this year).  This includes one Sweet 16 run and three consecutive years that they went to the NIT (this board would have run him off then too).

My point is that consistency and patience is what is required to get to the level of some of the teams that you mentioned. Folks who advocate for keeping Ford are not okay with mediocrity.  This is a BS sentiment that is getting old.  We all want SLU to get to the next level and then the level beyond that.  I just think being patient with a coach that has gotten us 4 twenty win seasons in his first 7 years as coach and one tournament appearance (after inheriting a dumpster fire) gives us a better chance to get where we want to be than starting over with an unknown.

I don't have a problem with posters who think its time to part ways with Ford.  You are all entitled to your opinion.  I just think it is too risky right now, and that our chances are better with Ford.  Please stop having a problem with myself and other posters whose opinion differs from yours.  Let's just all calm down.

What is this reasonable and nuanced post doing on this board!!! Those things have been in short supply lately.

When looking at the Ford era, it's as if some folks forget about the two COVID seasons. These are not "excuses" simply facts. In one of his seasons, there was no NCAA Tournament to make. In the 2019-20 season, SLU entered the A-10 Tournament (which was cancelled) with a 23-8 record, winners of their last 5 including dominating victories of VCU and Bonnie. They had a NET ranking of 49 and were considered on the Bubble. Conventional wisdom was if they were to win just one game in the A-10 Tourney they would be 50/50 to get an at large. And win, two, they were likely getting an at-large. I think if that season plays out, there is a good chance we're in and it changes the perception of Ford for some people.

And then in 2020-21, after wins against LSU and NC State, SLU cracks the Top 25 right as conference play is about to begin. The team then has a COVD shutdown for more than a month and is not the same. Even then, they finished with a NET of 43 and were the first four out: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020–21_Saint_Louis_Billikens_men's_basketball_team

Ford clearly built a team that was headed for an at-large bid.

Then last year, Perkins goes out during the first exhibition game, erasing any chance of an at-large season. I actually think Ford did an excellent job adjusting last season - Yuri and Gibby took on bigger roles and blossomed. I think Ford did a better job coaching than board darling Mark Schmidt.

I entered this season on the pro Ford side of things, this year has certainly raised some concerns. Not ready to fire him, but I think a little warming of the seat is warranted.

In four of the last five seasons, he built rosters capable of making the Dance, and not many SLU coaches can say that. Some highly unusual circumstances prevented more NCAA appearances during that time. No previous eras faced anything like COVID, so that needs to be considered when looking at the Ford era.

Too often these debates get framed as Ford lover vs. Ford hater. I am neither. I appreciate your well-thought-out post.

 

[cgeldmacher]

8 minutes ago, BANGheGOTit said:

“Please stop having a problem with myself and other posters whose opinion differs from yours.  Let’s just calm down”…that doesn’t go both ways?  You can’t have a different opinion from a core group of posters on here without these same people labeling you a troll!

So, you bring up coaches that have been at their program for 10,12,15 years…so it’s longevity that brings their success??  If that’s the case then you and the core group of boosters need to convince May to sign Travis to a 8 year extension asap!  Better keep Ford locked up for the next decade because revenue will go up and salaries will surely increase…lock him up on a cost saving deal of only $3m per.

As for myself, not speaking for others—if Travis would have shown “coaching ability”, the type of X’s and O’s Type of game he had yesterday—I think most Ford “haters” or “trolls” wouldn’t have a problem with Travis like many do (because he would have certainly won more games over his 7 season here with that kind of coaching).  We may get one or two games per season where we can actually say “exceptional job”.  Unless this is the new style of coaching for Travis (and I pray it is), there is nothing in his past to give any confidence that he will stick with it…we usually don’t even see it for a whole half, let alone a whole game.  I hope this is the new Travis and he proves people wrong.  I will gladly say he’s a quality coach if this is what we continue to see.  But to say sticking with him because it’s worked other places is premature—One good game doesn’t give me the confidence to think he will ever be the same in-game coach as the guys you mentioned.  If he takes this team into the NCAA tournament and continues this for another season, he may very well deserve a extension at that point.

There are many, many posters on this board that are advocating for Ford to go that I would not label as a "Troll."  I respect their opinions, but simply disagree.  Having a different opinion than me or others does not, remotely, make a person a troll.  A troll is someone who incessantly posts about a position using non stop superlative verbage and, in doing so, annoys the CR*P out of everyone on the board and makes it difficult to read.

I enjoy debating with those who are here as devout Billiken fans, but have a differing opinion on a topic than I do.  That's part of what makes this board interesting.  I cannot stand someone who shows up out of the blue and spends their first 262 posts repeating the same garbage over and over again.  We know your opinion on this.  Let it go.

[cgeldmacher]

8 minutes ago, ACE said:

I entered this season on the pro Ford side of things, this year has certainly raised some concerns. Not ready to fire him, but I think a little warming of the seat is warranted.

In four of the last five seasons, he built rosters capable of making the Dance, and not many SLU coaches can say that. Some highly unusual circumstances prevented more NCAA appearances during that time. No previous eras faced anything like COVID, so that needs to be considered when looking at the Ford era.

Too often these debates get framed as Ford lover vs. Ford hater. I am neither.

 

This!!  Especially the bold part.

[BANGheGOTit]

1 minute ago, ACE said:

What is this reasonable and nuanced post doing on this board!!! Those things have been in short supply lately.

When looking at the Ford era, it's as if some folks forget about the two COVID seasons. These are not "excuses" simply facts. In one of his seasons, there was no NCAA Tournament to make. In the 2019-20 season, SLU entered the A-10 Tournament (which was cancelled) with a 23-8 record, winners of their last 5 including dominating victories of VCU and Bonnie. They had a NET ranking of 49 and were considered on the Bubble. Conventional wisdom was if they were to win just one game in the A-10 Tourney they would be 50/50 to get an at large. And win, two, they were likely getting an at-large. I think if that season plays out, there is a good chance we're in and it changes the perception of Ford for some people.

And then in 2020-21, after wins against LSU and NC State, SLU cracks the Top 25 right as conference play is about to begin. The team then has a COVD shutdown for more than a month and is not the same. Even then, they finished with a NET of 43 and were the first four out: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020–21_Saint_Louis_Billikens_men's_basketball_team

Ford clearly built a team that was headed for an at-large bid.

Then last year, Perkins goes out during the first exhibition game, erasing any chance of an at-large season. I actually think Ford did an excellent job adjusting last season - Yuri and Gibby took on bigger roles and blossomed. I think Ford did a better job coaching than board darling Mark Schmidt.

I entered this season on the pro Ford side of things, this year has certainly raised some concerns. Not ready to fire him, but I think a little warming of the seat is warranted.

In four of the last five seasons, he built rosters capable of making the Dance, and not many SLU coaches can say that. Some highly unusual circumstances prevented more NCAA appearances during that time. No previous eras faced anything like COVID, so that needs to be considered when looking at the Ford era.

Too often these debates get framed as Ford lover vs. Ford hater. I am neither. I appreciate your well-thought-out post.

 

I’ll give you the Covid years and admit that possibly there would have been a bid—but we will never know.  Aside from a miracle run in the A10 Tournament from a 6 seed, Travis just hasn’t shown the ability to win the big games.  Even though it’s possibly a “win or go home” tournament game, I can’t say a first or second round game against some 15 win program constitutes a “big game”.  I’m taking program changing games, or at least games to gain national attention.  Personally I want more than “decent”.  For me I have never felt Travis could outcoach the opposing coach on a consistent basis.  He’s done it—and has proven it can happen, but he has shown the stubbornness to not be willing to adapt.  I’m hoping he had a revelation this week and he becomes the coach we saw yesterday.  THAT coach and that effort will get SLU to the BE conference at some point.

[almaman]

7 minutes ago, cgeldmacher said:

There are many, many posters on this board that are advocating for Ford to go that I would not label as a "Troll."  I respect their opinions, but simply disagree.  Having a different opinion than me or others does not, remotely, make a person a troll.  A troll is someone who incessantly posts about a position using non stop superlative verbage and, in doing so, annoys the CR*P out of everyone on the board and makes it difficult to read.

I enjoy debating with those who are here as devout Billiken fans, but have a differing opinion on a topic than I do.  That's part of what makes this board interesting.  I cannot stand someone who shows up out of the blue and spends their first 262 posts repeating the same garbage over and over again.  We know your opinion on this.  Let it go.

indeed, 100% etc. it's fun to sit around talk sports but if someone shows up screaming, interrupting being a ****** party ruined. check please

[slu92]

7 minutes ago, cgeldmacher said:

There are many, many posters on this board that are advocating for Ford to go that I would not label as a "Troll."  I respect their opinions, but simply disagree.  Having a different opinion than me or others does not, remotely, make a person a troll.  A troll is someone who incessantly posts about a position using non stop superlative verbage and, in doing so, annoys the CR*P out of everyone on the board and makes it difficult to read.

I enjoy debating with those who are here as devout Billiken fans, but have a differing opinion on a topic than I do.  That's part of what makes this board interesting.  I cannot stand someone who shows up out of the blue and spends their first 262 posts repeating the same garbage over and over again.  We know your opinion on this.  Let it go.

Great post. I’m not in the hate Ford camp, I just question keeping a guy for that salary and after seven years with only 1 ncaa appearance I don’t see the value. I 100% he made program better after Crews and that alone is why I can’t hate the guy. Just want to see more consistency throughout the season from a coaching perspective. Martin made ncaa at Mizzou 2/5 years and he was fired, 1/7 is not worth $2.5 mil a year. IF they get to NCAA I’m 100% on board giving Travis Ford a couple more years. Again well written post, not everyone is a troll, some of us just want the best for SLU! 

[cgeldmacher]

4 minutes ago, BANGheGOTit said:

I’ll give you the Covid years and admit that possibly there would have been a bid—but we will never know.  Aside from a miracle run in the A10 Tournament from a 6 seed, Travis just hasn’t shown the ability to win the big games.  Even though it’s possibly a “win or go home” tournament game, I can’t say a first or second round game against some 15 win program constitutes a “big game”.  I’m taking program changing games, or at least games to gain national attention.  Personally I want more than “decent”.  For me I have never felt Travis could outcoach the opposing coach on a consistent basis.  He’s done it—and has proven it can happen, but he has shown the stubbornness to not be willing to adapt.  I’m hoping he had a revelation this week and he becomes the coach we saw yesterday.  THAT coach and that effort will get SLU to the BE conference at some point.

See, there was a post where you made a point, instead of just ranting about how much Ford sucks.  You even threw in a dusting of positivity.  I agree that Ford has shown stubborness and an unwillingness to adapt.  I just believe that he can evolve and get better and use that to compliment his recruiting abilities to move SLU forward.

I'm going to give this post a "not bad." 

[dennis_w]

22 minutes ago, cgeldmacher said:

That's fine.  If you want to use Gonzaga, let's go down that rabbit hole.  Mark Few did not start the success at Gonzaga, he has just maintained the success that was already there.  Before him was Monson, but Monson was only there two seasons.  Monson also did not create the success at Gonzaga.  The winning tradition at Gonzaga, the one we want to replicate, was started by Dan Fitzgerald.  Before Fitzgerald, Gonzaga had never been to the NCAA tournament.  Never as in not once it its history which goes back to 1907.

Let's look at what Fitzgerald did.  In 1985, Fitzgerald inherited at team that had gone 15-13 and 4-8 in conference the year before.  In his first 8 seasons as Gonzaga's head coach, he only got to 20 wins once (exactly 20 in 91-92) and never made the tournament.  In the 3 seasons from 93 to 96 Gonzaga had over 20 wins each season and went to their first ever NCAA tournament.  After the 96-97 season, Fitzgerald stepped down and turned the team over to his assistant Monson in a move that had been planned for over two years.  Monson used the momentum created by Fitzgerald to get to the Elite Eight in his 2nd season before moving on.  Few has been churning the wheels of success created by Fitzgerald and his assistant, and later head coach Monson, ever since.

If Gonzaga's fans had run Fitzgerald and his assistant Monson off in Fitzgerald's first 8 years of not much success, there is no Mark Few and no amazing Gonzaga tradition.

I guarantee that everyone who is advocating for keeping Ford will change their tune in a year or two if we arent seeing progress.  We are also not happy with the results this season and are questioning whether Ford is the guy that will get SLU where we want it to be.  We just believe that consistency is the way to go right now with a coach that has given us five consecutive 20 win seasons in non-Covid years.

i attemped to make this very ,you said ti much betther than i

[BANGheGOTit]

12 minutes ago, cgeldmacher said:

There are many, many posters on this board that are advocating for Ford to go that I would not label as a "Troll."  I respect their opinions, but simply disagree.  Having a different opinion than me or others does not, remotely, make a person a troll.  A troll is someone who incessantly posts about a position using non stop superlative verbage and, in doing so, annoys the CR*P out of everyone on the board and makes it difficult to read.

I enjoy debating with those who are here as devout Billiken fans, but have a differing opinion on a topic than I do.  That's part of what makes this board interesting.  I cannot stand someone who shows up out of the blue and spends their first 262 posts repeating the same garbage over and over again.  We know your opinion on this.  Let it go.

Tell me what my opinion is then. Do I want Ford fired? Do I hate Ford? Do I hate SLU?  Some on here want some sort of “guarantee” that any new coach will be a winner.  Can you or anyone else “guarantee” that Travis will evolve to a high level X’s and O’s Coach if the program gives him more years, or will it always be what we see now and come up short against ranked opponents?  For the record—because you and others want to throw out the troll BS because you can’t stand any other opinion than your own—I liked the Travis hire, I’ve supported Travis.  I like Travis from afar. I hate his inability to seemingly do any adjustments in game or if he finds something that works he doesn’t stick with it.  The letting off the gas philosophy is mind-numbing.  If what we saw yesterday is a change in his philosophy he will likely get better results year in and year out and DESERVE a extension—now again, am I a Ford hater??  Or am I a f’n fan of this program and want MORE!  

[Billiken Rich]

1 minute ago, BANGheGOTit said:

Tell me what my opinion is then. Do I want Ford fired? Do I hate Ford? Do I hate SLU?  Some on here want some sort of “guarantee” that any new coach will be a winner.  Can you or anyone else “guarantee” that Travis will evolve to a high level X’s and O’s Coach if the program gives him more years, or will it always be what we see now and come up short against ranked opponents?  For the record—because you and others want to throw out the troll BS because you can’t stand any other opinion than your own—I liked the Travis hire, I’ve supported Travis.  I like Travis from afar. I hate his inability to seemingly do any adjustments in game or if he finds something that works he doesn’t stick with it.  The letting off the gas philosophy is mind-numbing.  If what we saw yesterday is a change in his philosophy he will likely get better results year in and year out and DESERVE a extension—now again, am I a Ford hater??  Or am I a f’n fan of this program and want MORE!  

You know what you are.......no one here has to tell you......

[WVBilliken]

On 3/9/2023 at 2:12 PM, cgeldmacher said:

Randy Bennett has been at St. Mary's for 22 years.  In his first 8 seasons, St. Mary's only went to the NCAA tournament twice and only won more than 20 games 3 times.  If the fans had run him out of town because they he was not getting to the tournament enough or winning more than 20 games enought in those early years, they would not be enjoying the success they are having now.  In the 13 non-Covid years since those first 8, St. Mary's has been to the NCAA Tournament 7 times (counting this year).  This includes one Sweet 16 run and three consecutive years that they went to the NIT (this board would have run him off then too).

My point is that consistency and patience is what is required to get to the level of some of the teams that you mentioned. Folks who advocate for keeping Ford are not okay with mediocrity.  This is a BS sentiment that is getting old.  We all want SLU to get to the next level and then the level beyond that.  I just think being patient with a coach that has gotten us 4 twenty win seasons in his first 7 years as coach and one tournament appearance (after inheriting a dumpster fire) gives us a better chance to get where we want to be than starting over with an unknown.

I don't have a problem with posters who think its time to part ways with Ford.  You are all entitled to your opinion.  I just think it is too risky right now, and that our chances are better with Ford.  Please stop having a problem with myself and other posters whose opinion differs from yours.  Let's just all calm 

 

[WVBilliken]

On 3/9/2023 at 2:12 PM, cgeldmacher said:

Randy Bennett has been at St. Mary's for 22 years.  In his first 8 seasons, St. Mary's only went to the NCAA tournament twice and only won more than 20 games 3 times.  If the fans had run him out of town because they he was not getting to the tournament enough or winning more than 20 games enought in those early years, they would not be enjoying the success they are having now.  In the 13 non-Covid years since those first 8, St. Mary's has been to the NCAA Tournament 7 times (counting this year).  This includes one Sweet 16 run and three consecutive years that they went to the NIT (this board would have run him off then too).

My point is that consistency and patience is what is required to get to the level of some of the teams that you mentioned. Folks who advocate for keeping Ford are not okay with mediocrity.  This is a BS sentiment that is getting old.  We all want SLU to get to the next level and then the level beyond that.  I just think being patient with a coach that has gotten us 4 twenty win seasons in his first 7 years as coach and one tournament appearance (after inheriting a dumpster fire) gives us a better chance to get where we want to be than starting over with an unknown.

I don't have a problem with posters who think its time to part ways with Ford.  You are all entitled to your opinion.  I just think it is too risky right now, and that our chances are better with Ford.  Please stop having a problem with myself and other posters whose opinion differs from yours.  Let's just all calm 

 

[WVBilliken]

On 3/9/2023 at 2:12 PM, cgeldmacher said:

Randy Bennett has been at St. Mary's for 22 years.  In his first 8 seasons, St. Mary's only went to the NCAA tournament twice and only won more than 20 games 3 times.  If the fans had run him out of town because they he was not getting to the tournament enough or winning more than 20 games enought in those early years, they would not be enjoying the success they are having now.  In the 13 non-Covid years since those first 8, St. Mary's has been to the NCAA Tournament 7 times (counting this year).  This includes one Sweet 16 run and three consecutive years that they went to the NIT (this board would have run him off then too).

My point is that consistency and patience is what is required to get to the level of some of the teams that you mentioned. Folks who advocate for keeping Ford are not okay with mediocrity.  This is a BS sentiment that is getting old.  We all want SLU to get to the next level and then the level beyond that.  I just think being patient with a coach that has gotten us 4 twenty win seasons in his first 7 years as coach and one tournament appearance (after inheriting a dumpster fire) gives us a better chance to get where we want to be than starting over with an unknown.

I don't have a problem with posters who think its time to part ways with Ford.  You are all entitled to your opinion.  I just think it is too risky right now, and that our chances are better with Ford.  Please stop having a problem with myself and other posters whose opinion differs from yours.  Let's just all calm down.

Agree 100%.  I see Ford as the guy who can bring long-term success and continuity to this program ..... something the Billikens need but haven't had for many decades.  Most mid-majors that make the step up have had a stable coaching situation.  Changing coaches every 5 years or so is disruptive and a big mistake IMO.

[ACE]

1 hour ago, brianstl said:

What did Illini fans expect?  I know they are legitimately insane, but Henson took over a program that prior to his arrival in Champaign had been to one NCAA tournament in 24 years.  The program Henson quit, New Mexico St, was actually a better basketball program than the Illini at the time.  They are a completely delusional fan base.  The same fan base that turned on the head coach who won the schools only two outright Big Ten titles in the past 70 years.

The frustrated SLU fans aren't asking for a Final Four team.  They just want to be a top 50 team once in a while so they can be a legitimate at large bid contender.  SLU has not once finished in the Pomeroy's top 50 in the the Ford era and has only once finished in the top 60. 

People talk about how fans were super patient with Bennett at St. Mary's and with Fitzgerald building the program that turned into the Gonzaga we have today.  Those were programs that where built in what at the time was a one bid conference and at schools that didn't provide anywhere close to the resources Travis has been given at SLU.  They aren't comparable situations.

I didn't want to get into this discussion today.  I wanted to enjoy the ride of what I hope is going to be a magical weekend.  I think we are going to win this thing and the whole topic will be dead.  That said, there have been some comparisons made that are just are crazy.  Nobody would have been happy if we told them when Travis was hired that seven seasons into Travis's tenure we wouldn't have one team finish inside the top 50.  Everyone back then would have said that we would be a failure.  These sunshine scenarios that aren't comparable to SLU are nothing but a whole bunch of cope.

Now the Billlikens are going to win this thing and make everything I just typed irrelevant by Sunday night.

In the NET, they have finished twice in the Top 50: 2019-20 & 2020-21.

[brianstl]

7 minutes ago, ACE said:

In the NET, they have finished twice in the Top 50: 2019-20 & 2020-21.

I was using Pomeroy.

With net they finished inside the top 50 only once in 2020 at 49  https://masseyratings.com/cb/arch/compare2020-19.htm

They finished with a net Ranking of 52 in 2021 https://masseyratings.com/cb/arch/compare2021-17.htm.

 

[Crewsorlose]

1 hour ago, ACE said:

What is this reasonable and nuanced post doing on this board!!! Those things have been in short supply lately.

When looking at the Ford era, it's as if some folks forget about the two COVID seasons. These are not "excuses" simply facts. In one of his seasons, there was no NCAA Tournament to make. In the 2019-20 season, SLU entered the A-10 Tournament (which was cancelled) with a 23-8 record, winners of their last 5 including dominating victories of VCU and Bonnie. They had a NET ranking of 49 and were considered on the Bubble. Conventional wisdom was if they were to win just one game in the A-10 Tourney they would be 50/50 to get an at large. And win, two, they were likely getting an at-large. I think if that season plays out, there is a good chance we're in and it changes the perception of Ford for some people.

And then in 2020-21, after wins against LSU and NC State, SLU cracks the Top 25 right as conference play is about to begin. The team then has a COVD shutdown for more than a month and is not the same. Even then, they finished with a NET of 43 and were the first four out: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020–21_Saint_Louis_Billikens_men's_basketball_team

Ford clearly built a team that was headed for an at-large bid.

Then last year, Perkins goes out during the first exhibition game, erasing any chance of an at-large season. I actually think Ford did an excellent job adjusting last season - Yuri and Gibby took on bigger roles and blossomed. I think Ford did a better job coaching than board darling Mark Schmidt.

I entered this season on the pro Ford side of things, this year has certainly raised some concerns. Not ready to fire him, but I think a little warming of the seat is warranted.

In four of the last five seasons, he built rosters capable of making the Dance, and not many SLU coaches can say that. Some highly unusual circumstances prevented more NCAA appearances during that time. No previous eras faced anything like COVID, so that needs to be considered when looking at the Ford era.

Too often these debates get framed as Ford lover vs. Ford hater. I am neither. I appreciate your well-thought-out post.

 

I was 100% where you are, and liked the direction of the program. Then this year happened. Honestly, what do you make of it? He almost never plays Parker, yet praises Sincere for being happy despite being benched. He treats TJ like a freshman rather than a vet. His team is full of seniors and 5th years who wilt in big moments. Nobody seems improved. He gave 3 frosh scholarships, none of whom could crack the rotation of a..... fringe top 100 team? Okoro takes a step backward. Ford yells like a maniac at every ref and player. A few guys get to play through every mistake and others are yanked like .... 2020 Demarius Jacobs. And the team underperforms massively. 

Do people with access to the program think the players like playing under TF? 

The previous years were overall good and you could say TF was a bit snake bit. I think he deserves another year, because every coach can have a down year. But I hope that May is talking with the assistants and people like Larry Hughes. Something's rotten this year. 

[courtside]

2 hours ago, courtside said:

People have to decide what SLU is and what they want it to be:

Randy Bennett is a great coach that has had a lot of success at a tough place to win at a high level. Comparing St. Mary’s and SLU is apples to oranges. Expectations are more at SLU. So are the resources. 

Randy Bennett was making $233k during those first 8 seasons. And the school’s basketball budget and expectations were not high. He was coaching in a then 25 year old 3500k gym. It’s now a 45 year old 3500k gym.

Much tougher to get NCAA bids in WCC. That isn’t a fair comparison. Here is what stands out: Bennett finished 2nd in just his 3rd season at St. Mary’s. Then he went on to finish 2nd in the league or better 8 out of the next 9 years, winning the league multiple times. That’s year 3 onwards success. The year he didn’t finish top 2, he finished 3rd. That’s what stands out about Bennett. He had sustained success in year 3 onward.

Bennett has had 1 Sweet 16 in 22 seasons, and 9 NCAA Tourneys. That’s great for St. Mary’s and a WCC school. And unlike at a school like SLU, making the NIT annually in between as opposed to being more up and down adds to Bennett’s positive consistency there.

Even now, after all of the years of success, St. Mary’s doesn’t crack the top 100 in hoops budgets. SLU is top 75.  Bennett makes 2.5 times less than SLU’s coach. And that’s after a recent 10 year extension. 

……………. 

SLU also isn’t Colgate. Matt Langel had 6 straight losing seasons as head coach there. He’s now won the Patriot League regular season title every year since, 5 straight times.

……………

A10/Big East Comparisons. In some fairness to SLU, 9 of the 11 Big East teams have a much larger hoops budget than SLU. SLU has the 3rd largest A10 hoops budget behind Dayton and VCU.

These are some Big East Coaches who were fired for not winning enough and their results which led to their dismissals:

Patrick Ewing was given 6 seasons. He made the NCAA’s his 4th year. 

…………..

LaVall Jordan had 5 years at Butler. He made the NCAA’s once. (Butler and DePaul are the two Big East schools with a smaller hoops budget than SLU.)

Oliver Parnell had 5 seasons at DePaul. Jerry Wainwright had 5. Dave Leitao part 2 had 6. Pat Kennedy had 5.

Mike Anderson has had 4 winning record seasons at St. John’s. He’s on the hot seat. Steve Lavin had 4 winning seasons in 5 years at St. John’s. 

……………….

Steve Wojciechowski had 5 out 7 winning seasons at Marquette, 2 NCAA tourneys. 

Mike Deane made the NCAA’s twice in five seasons at Marquette. Also an NIT Finals. 4 winning record seasons, 100 wins.

……………….

Travis Steele had 4 seasons at Xavier. All 4 had winning records. 

……………..

Kevin Willard is an example of a coach who did not make the NCAA’s in his first 5 seasons at Seton Hall. He made it in year 6. He then made it 5 of 6 more times, and he eventually left on his own for Maryland. He never did make the 2nd weekend of NCAA Tourney in 12 seasons at Seton Hall. 

Bobby Gonzalez was given 4 seasons at Seton Hall. 

……………….

Kenon Davis had 3 seasons at Providence. Tim Welsh had 10 (2 NCAA Tourneys).

………………

Now take a look at some more successful ones, and what happened there:

Mark Few won immediately at Gonzaga with regards to winning the league and making the NCAA Tourney regularly. He stayed.

………………..

Some of the others coached in better leagues than SLU’s league.

Jay Wright got it going in his 4th season at Villanova and he never looked back, winning annually. He stayed.

…………….

Greg McDermott and Shaka Smart had success in smaller leagues, left for Power 5 schools, and landed in the Big East. McDermott struggled a lot at Iowa State. Smart was better at Texas but not good enough. Both bounced to Big East schools and have had sustained success quickly, and built from that. Sean Miller had 5 years at Xavier in the A10. He had 2nd year onward annual success. 30 win Pac 12 title, Elite 8 in year 2 at AZ. NCAA team year 1 at the now Big East version of Xavier. 

……………..

Chris Holtmann left Butler for Ohio State after 3 successful seasons. While somewhat successful at Ohio State, his success has been below their expectations.

……………..

Chris Mack Xavier: 4 years A10, immediate success. 5 years Big East immediate success. He then left for Louisville because his wife is from there. It didn’t work out.

…………….

Ed Cooley 12 seasons at Providence. Sustained succeess began in year 3 onward. 

……………

Fran Dunphy, 7 years in A10 with Temple before switching leagues. Sustained success in A10 began in year 2. Fran has never made the 2nd weekend of the NCAA Tourney. Now at La Salle.

…………..

Archie Miller 6 years at Dayton before leaving for IU. Sustained annual Dayton success began in year 3. Wasn’t successful at IU. 

……………

Bob Mckillop coached Davidson for 25 years over several leagues before the A-10. He built sustained success in year 5 onward. (As is the case for many smaller leagues, a better gauge of success is winning your regular season league annually rather than infrequent periodic NCAA Tourneys. His 1st NCAA tourney was year 9, and he had just 1 in his first 12 seasons.)

In the A10, he won the league twice, 5 top 3 finishes, 3 NCAA Tourneys in 8 years. 

………….

Mark Schmidt, St. Bonaventure, 16 seasons, 3 NCAA Tourneys. 2 league titles. 3 top 3 league finishes.

………..

Mike Rhoades, VCU, 6th season. 2 NCAA Tourneys in 5 seasons. 2 league titles in 6th seasons and 2 2nd place finishes.

…………..

Anthony Grant, Dayton, 5 completed seasons. 1 NCAA Tourney. (he would have made it the year it was canceled) 1 league title and 2 2nd places finishes in 6 seasons

…………….

Chris May said just this week that the stated goal for SLU Women’s basketball is to be an NCAA Tourney team and to make some runs in it. He didn’t say the same thing about SLU Men’s basketball. 

 

Update:

Mike Anderson is no longer on the hot seat at St. John's. He is out. Many credible ppl reporting Rick Pitino as first and likely choice.

Anderson at St. John's: 4 seasons, all winning records, bottom tier league standings 3 of 4 seasons. Life in the Big East.

 

[RUBillsFan]

8 minutes ago, courtside said:

Update:

Mike Anderson is no longer on the hot seat at St. John's. He is out. Many credible ppl reporting Rick Pitino as first and likely choice.

Anderson at St. John's: 4 seasons, all winning records, bottom tier league standings 3 of 4 seasons. Life in the Big East.

 

Former SLU assistant coach (who I think was maybe even associate head coach) Van Macon was on Anderson's staff at St. Johns.

[ACE]

27 minutes ago, brianstl said:

I was using Pomeroy.

With net they finished inside the top 50 only once in 2020 at 49  https://masseyratings.com/cb/arch/compare2020-19.htm

They finished with a net Ranking of 52 in 2021 https://masseyratings.com/cb/arch/compare2021-17.htm.

 

I was going by the NET ranking when the regular season ended - even with the extremely long COVID pause, they were ranked 43 and were in the First Four out - As the NCAA Tourney played out, I'm sure they slipped, but we're splitting hairs here - that was a top 50 team.

[courtside]

17 minutes ago, RUBillsFan said:

Former SLU assistant coach (who I think was maybe even associate head coach) Van Macon was on Anderson's staff at St. Johns.

And Macon may be retained by the new regime, as he is a very good recruiter who did much of the heavy lifting with recruiting there. 

[almaman]

32 minutes ago, courtside said:

Update:

Mike Anderson is no longer on the hot seat at St. John's. He is out. Many credible ppl reporting Rick Pitino as first and likely choice.

Anderson at St. John's: 4 seasons, all winning records, bottom tier league standings 3 of 4 seasons. Life in the Big East.

 

they should trade jobs