Best Billikens Point Guard

[Bills By 40]

10 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

I think he's now top 20 in the country in steals. I've always felt like it kind of makes sense to subtract steals from t/o's when assessing a pg. Which would make Gilyards season even more outstanding. 

He's 29th ITN in SPG and 24th ITN in total steals. A lot of disparity between SOS and # of games played but regardless, being top 30 or better in both regards makes him a nationally elite defender. If you also consider # of charges taken and just 2.3 fouls per game, this argument gets even stronger. 

[slufanskip]

2 minutes ago, Bills By 40 said:

He's 29th ITN in SPG and 24th ITN in total steals. A lot of disparity between SOS and # of games played but regardless, being top 30 or better in both regards makes him a nationally elite defender. If you also consider # of charges taken and just 2.3 fouls per game, this argument gets even stronger. 

He clearly leads the team in charges taken. Sometimes I wish he wouldn't but how do you tell a player not to play good D? 

[Bills By 40]

22 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

He clearly leads the team in charges taken. Sometimes I wish he wouldn't but how do you tell a player not to play good D? 

You don't. I love it, though I'm afraid for him every time, because it really makes you respect the (typically) smallest guy on the floor on both ends when's he both scoring and defending in the paint. 

[Cowboy II]

42 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

He clearly leads the team in charges taken. Sometimes I wish he wouldn't but how do you tell a player not to play good D? 

-yeah, I've had the same thought, no doubt that he is one tough hombre 

[Bills By 40]

This list got me real fired up today, so much so that I spend a significant amount of my afternoon researching and developing my argument as to why it's bullshiot and Yuri should be on it. This spreadsheet is a culmination of that R&D and the scientific conclusion is that the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame can go fuock themselves. 

[RiseOfTheBillikens]

Smh. Someone needs to get on they as$

[Bills By 40]

Just now, Bills By 40 said:

While he plays more MPG than all but 2 other players on the list, he takes fewer shots per game than all but one and that aligns with his 10th ranked PPG. His A/T ratio is dead in the middle of the pack while he is 3rd by a margin of just .2 from 1st in SPG, and 1st by a :Jimbo Bad Language: mile in APG and RPG. 

If you only included Yuri's last 10 games (compared to others' full seasons, I'm not doing that much work) this is how things change: 

[3star_recruit]

2 hours ago, Bills By 40 said:

While he plays more MPG than all but 2 other players on the list, he takes fewer shots per game than all but one and that aligns with his 10th ranked PPG. His A/T ratio is dead in the middle of the pack while he is 3rd by a margin of just .2 from 1st in SPG, and 1st by a :Jimbo Bad Language: mile in APG and RPG. 

If you only included Yuri's last 10 games (compared to others' full seasons, I'm not doing that much work) this is how things change: 

You're going to drive yourself crazy trying to do comparisons between mid major and high major players.  The top major players always have better stats than the top high major players.  The only way mid major players get consideration for these kinds of awards is if they have strong performances against high major teams.  Which we haven't.

[thatskablamo]

On 1/29/2022 at 1:05 PM, NextYearBill said:

down by 1pt with 10 seconds left... Jett

down by 2pt with 10 seconds left... Kwamain 

great post

2014 Orlando flashbacks meet
2012 Columbus flashbacks! 
 

[hmart23]

17 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

You're going to drive yourself crazy trying to do comparisons between mid major and high major players.  The top major players always have better stats than the top high major players.  The only way mid major players get consideration for these kinds of awards is if they have strong performances against high major teams.  Which we haven't.

I mean he did have 19 assists against an ACC team

[3star_recruit]

19 minutes ago, hmart23 said:

I mean he did have 19 assists against an ACC team

You and I think that's a big deal.  The national guys just see an ACC bottom feeder with a NET ranking of 158.

Do you remember when the national campaign for Obi Toppin as POY started?   When he went for 18 and 9 against Kansas.  Those are the kind of performances that get national respect. 

[Bills By 40]

26 minutes ago, hmart23 said:

I mean he did have 19 assists against an ACC team

Exactly. The high major/mid major argument drives me nuts because nobody will ever say "Let's disregard the high major player's stats from the nonconference schedule in which they played a dozen buy games on their home court and a Thanksgiving tournament. And nobody will say "Let's disregard Andrew Nembhard's stats from conference play because they play in the WCC" (a conference immeasurably different than the A10, especially if you exclude Gonzaga. And because Gonzaga can't play Gonzaga for this argument you should exclude them.) 

[RUBillsFan]

20 hours ago, Bills By 40 said:

This list got me real fired up today, so much so that I spend a significant amount of my afternoon researching and developing my argument as to why it's bullshiot and Yuri should be on it. This spreadsheet is a culmination of that R&D and the scientific conclusion is that the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame can go fuock themselves. 

Adjusted opponent defense per KenPom's strength of schedule metrics:

Quinerly, Alabama - 11

Green Jr, Auburn - 23

Akinjo, Baylor - 17

Stevens, Colorado State - 147

Nembhard, Gonzaga - 151

Wheeler, Kentucky - 62

Richardson, Oregon - 31

Chandler, Tennessee - 2

Cambell, UCLA - 57

Gillespie, Villanova - 15

Collins, SLU - 158

Not great for Collins, but shows that he's on par with the other non-Power conference PGs in terms of the strength of defenses he has faced.

 

[hmart23]

5 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

You and I think that's a big deal.  The national guys just see an ACC bottom feeder with a NET ranking of 158.

Do you remember when the national campaign for Obi Toppin as POY started?   When he went for 18 and 9 against Kansas.  Those are the kind of performances that get national respect. 

He had 13, 12, 8, & 3 against #1 Auburn. Is that good enough?

[3star_recruit]

23 minutes ago, hmart23 said:

He had 13, 12, 8, & 3 against #1 Auburn. Is that good enough?

I thought it was.  But the late game collapse and the hail of turnovers probably left a negative impression.  It certainly did on this message board in the days following.  If even MBMs were kicking him off the pedestal, why should the national voters put him on it?

[hmart23]

17 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

I thought it was.  But the late game collapse and the hail of turnovers probably left a negative impression.  It certainly did on this message board in the days following.  If even MBMs were kicking him off the pedestal, why should the national voters put him on it?

I wasn't one of them.

[slufanskip]

15 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

I thought it was.  But the late game collapse and the hail of turnovers probably left a negative impression.  It certainly did on this message board in the days following.  If even MBMs were kicking him off the pedestal, why should the national voters put him on it?

I get your point, but I really expect the supposed experts to have a better clue. MBM's live and die with every good or bad play. Heck, we had people on here saying he should have a 4-5 / 1 assist to t/o ratio despite that fact that literally no one with his volume of assists has that or has ever had that over more than a short period of time

[Bills By 40]

15 hours ago, slufanskip said:

I get your point, but I really expect the supposed experts to have a better clue. MBM's live and die with every good or bad play. Heck, we had people on here saying he should have a 4-5 / 1 assist to t/o ratio despite that fact that literally no one with his volume of assists has that or has ever had that over more than a short period of time

We're talking about a guy with a legitimate chance to be the all-time NCAA assists leader and giving him less slack than a pitbull on a leash

[thetorch]

On 1/26/2022 at 11:06 PM, thetorch said:

In honor of Yuri breaking the all time assist record I've been thinking about all the great Billiken PGs.

Who is the best? No different designations, a pg is a pg, which means whether he shoots drives or passes he is the principal ball handler on the team. No pure points, no lead guards, no combo guards, no scoring guards. Everyone is a pg.

Big question for me is do we count Jett and Lisch as pgs? I say no but I am open to arguments.

My top 10

1. David Burns

2. H Waldman

3. Kwamain

4. Marque Perry

5. Yuri

6. Jimmy Irving

7. Jordan Goodwin

8. Josh Fisher

9. Charlie Newberry

10. Pee Wee Lenard

Ray Steiner and Lou Lehman belong on the list with probably 1 or 2 other earlier pgs but I never saw them play and neither did the generation before me so hard to judge.

Revised

1. Yuri Collins

2. David Burns

3. H Waldman

4. Kwamain

5. Marque Perry

6. Jimmy Irving

7. Jordan Goodwin

8. Josh Fisher

9. Charlie Newberry

10. Pee Wee Lenard

[almaman]

look what he's doing to the top 10 total assist per game list. could be just him an Roder by end of career

[papal]

Best defender on list: Josh Fischer (what a job he did on Dwanne Wade).  Best passer- Yuri or ?Waldmann.  Player who I would like to take the last shot to win the game-Jordair even though he is not on the list(would also consider David Burns).  I'm not sure Jimmy Irving was a pure point guard.

[slufanskip]

3 minutes ago, papal said:

Best defender on list: Josh Fischer (what a job he did on Dwanne Wade).  Best passer- Yuri or ?Waldmann.  Player who I would like to take the last shot to win the game-Jordair even though he is not on the list(would also consider David Burns).  I'm not sure Jimmy Irving was a pure point guard.

I can’t believe people consider H to be Yuri’’s  equal as a passer. 
 

Just today in the 2nd half, he points and tells ML where to move to then leads him with a pass that gets Martin an easy bucket. He’s done the same with Okoro more than once this year. His full court passes for easy buckets are unreal. 

[papal]

H was 6'4" and could see the court so well and make beautiful bullet passes.  If I recall correctly, our center was Donnie Dobbs who was probably only 6"4" himself.  There may have been 6"8" David Robinson and, or a Ryan ?.  We play a different game with Yuri than we did with Waldmann.

[3star_recruit]

Yuri did something tonight that H never could have done.  He dominated offensively, defensively and closed.  I'm comfortable with officially calling Yuri the best Billiken point guard of all time.  When you combine this Herculean performance with the career assist record, I think he's earned it.

[almaman]

3 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

Yuri did something tonight that H never could have done.  He dominated offensively, defensively and closed.  I'm comfortable with officially calling Yuri the best Billiken point guard of all time.  When you combine this Herculean performance with the career assist record, I think he's earned it.

still a sophomore. wowwowowow