Best Billikens Point Guard

[A10Ref]

yuri>

[thetorch]

17 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

I can’t believe people consider H to be Yuri’’s  equal as a passer. 
 

Just today in the 2nd half, he points and tells ML where to move to then leads him with a pass that gets Martin an easy bucket. He’s done the same with Okoro more than once this year. His full court passes for easy buckets are unreal. 

There are few if any highlights of Waldman.

His passes were amazing. He couldn't throw alley oops because no one could dunk. He was throwing nutmegs before they called them nutmegs.  Incredible ballhandler. He didn't score because he played with two great scorers. He played real minutes as a freshman on one of the greatest college basketball teams ever. I don't we should down play his skill.

 

[dennis_w]

17 minutes ago, papal said:

H was 6'4" and could see the court so well and make beautiful bullet passes.  If I recall correctly, our center was Donnie Dobbs who was probably only 6"4" himself.  There may have been 6"8" David Robinson and, or a Ryan ?.  We play a different game with Yuri than we did with Waldmann.

robinson was about 6'5" at the most

[slufanskip]

31 minutes ago, thetorch said:

There are few if any highlights of Waldman.

His passes were amazing. He couldn't throw alley oops because no one could dunk. He was throwing nutmegs before they called them nutmegs.  Incredible ballhandler. He didn't score because he played with two great scorers. He played real minutes as a freshman on one of the greatest college basketball teams ever. I don't we should down play his skill.

 

I’m not downplaying H, he was a great passer. If you check my about me page, he’s listed as one of my favorite Billikens. He can be a great passer but not as great as Yuri. If Yuri stays healthy he’ll at a minimum go down as only the 5th player in the history of the NCAA to have 1000 assists. He has a decent shot at #1  ever. EVER. 
 

GJim has become a good player but you take Yuri away and he’s a different player. This isn’t because he can make an Alley-oop. He not only feeds the post better than any Pg we’ve ever had, he tells them where to go and then puts the pass in the perfect location. 
 

H was a great passer, heck he used to be the best Billiken passer I’ve ever seen. Certainly nothing wrong with being considered 2nd best behind Yuri

[billiken_roy]

11 hours ago, thetorch said:

There are few if any highlights of Waldman.

His passes were amazing. He couldn't throw alley oops because no one could dunk. He was throwing nutmegs before they called them nutmegs.  Incredible ballhandler. He didn't score because he played with two great scorers. He played real minutes as a freshman on one of the greatest college basketball teams ever. I don't we should down play his skill.

 

this.   i love yuri collins but h is a legend imo.   let's not forget what a good shooter h was.   he's still my number 1

[BilliesBy40]

Waldman is before my time, but his assist numbers are not in the same stratosphere as Yuri. 

[billiken_roy]

guess you had to see him to get it.   kinda like the discussion about greatest game ever.    just looking at the stats, yes, yuri appears to be the best.   but us that remember the bonner and hughes games know what incredible nights they had.   seeing is believing.  

[slufanskip]

4 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

guess you had to see him to get it.   kinda like the discussion about greatest game ever.    just looking at the stats, yes, yuri appears to be the best.   but us that remember the bonner and hughes games know what incredible nights they had.   seeing is believing.  

I saw

[HoosierPal]

6 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

I saw

Were you at the Loyola Game in 1990?  I'm jealous. 

[slufanskip]

15 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

Were you at the Loyola Game in 1990?  I'm jealous. 

No. Roy was replying to an H vs Yuri comment. Basically saying you had to see H to get it. I was saying I saw H. 

[HoosierPal]

11 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

No. Roy was replying to an H vs Yuri comment. Basically saying you had to see H to get it. I was saying I saw H. 

Ah, got it.  There were only a handful of spectators there.

H played alongside of Claggett, who totaled 347 assists for #11 on the Career List.

[slufanskip]

8 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

Ah, got it.  There were only a handful of spectators there.

H played alongside of Claggett, who totaled 347 assists for #11 on the Career List.

I get it but honestly the fact that a guy who averaged 3 assists a game is #11 is kinda sad. Using the fact he’s #11 is creative use of stats. He averaged 3 assists a game, that’s it. 
 

I don’t know why me thinking Yuri is a better passer than H and a better overall pg is a downgrade of H. It’s not 

[HoosierPal]

17 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

I get it but honestly the fact that a guy who averaged 3 assists a game is #11 is kinda sad. Using the fact he’s #11 is creative use of stats. He averaged 3 assists a game, that’s it. 
 

I don’t know why me thinking Yuri is a better passer than H and a better overall pg is a downgrade of H. It’s not 

One thing to consider is that the game has changed, and the definition of an assist has evolved.  Years ago, a normal pass to a shooter would not have been an assist.  Now it is.  Years ago a pass, then a sidestep with a dribble preceding a shot, may or may not have been credited as an assist, but now it more than likely is.

It's all good.  We have been blessed with a nice list of great guards in the past several decades.  Comparing them is fun to do but very subjective.

 

[Duff Man]

2 hours ago, BilliesBy40 said:

Waldman is before my time, but his assist numbers are not in the same stratosphere as Yuri. 

It's tough to compare H to Yuri - I just think of them both as on their own tier.

Yuri can do more things than H could when it comes to dribble penetration. H was more of a scorer than Yuri over Yuri's entire career thus far, but H also would never have had a game like last night - and H arrived as a seasoned transfer while Yuri is still evolving as a player.

Stats don't tell the whole story, but here are there cumulative per game stats...

H Waldman 59 games, 30 MPG, 10.8 PPG, 5.0 APG, 2.1 SPG, 2.5 RPG, 2.0 TPG, 3.2/7.2 FG, .443 FG% 2.2/5.3 3P, .420 3P%, 2.2/2.7 FT, .796 FT%  

Yuri Collins 71 games, 30.9 MPG, 7.1 PPG, 6.6 APG, 1.6 SPG, 3.2 RPG, 3.1 TPG, 2.5/6.1 FG, .405 FG%, 0.5/1.5 3P, .327 3P%, 1.7/2.5 FT, .678 FT%

H spent his 2 seasons playing PG for teams where he was the 3rd or 4th leading scorer. His role was consistent. 

Yuri spent 2 seasons where he was not much of a scorer at all as the team had plenty of other options, but now in his 3rd year he's the 2nd leading scorer and ultimately the guy with the ball in his hands on the final shot.

IF Yuri can continue taking and making more 3s, and continue to evolve his all around game over the rest of his career - and most importantly lead the Bills to the NCAA tournament - he'll clearly be above H Waldman in the PG power rankings.

 

[almaman]

Wild Y is already ahead in total games. All of H's came after Y's season wise. His PPG likely to increase jr&sr years if he progresses as most do.

[BilliesBy40]

1 minute ago, almaman said:

Wild Y is already ahead in total games. All of H's came after Y's season wise. His PPG likely to increase jr&sr years if he progresses as most do.

Those stats are only for Waldman's time at SLU. If you look at their full careers, Yuri already has more assists despite playing in 46 less games.

[Duff Man]

19 minutes ago, BilliesBy40 said:

Those stats are only for Waldman's time at SLU. If you look at their full careers, Yuri already has more assists despite playing in 46 less games.

We're seriously comparing the 31 games H played as a bench warmer on arguably the greatest team not to win the NCAA tournament to Yuri's freshman season as if that's apples to apples comparison?

Please those of you too young to have seen H please stop discussing him.

[Duff Man]

30 minutes ago, almaman said:

Wild Y is already ahead in total games. All of H's came after Y's season wise. His PPG likely to increase jr&sr years if he progresses as most do.

Assuming Perkins comes back next year, the team will be less reliant on Yuri to score.

I'm really not worried about the stats. I just want to see Yuri keep getting better. It's going to be tough to ever have another game like last night, but if he can just keep the turnovers down, keep the assists up, make a couple 3s a game and make the defense respect his outside shot, and have the poise in crunch time (even when he's been shouldering the load and fatigue is a factor) to make the winning plays game in game out - he's going to take this team places.

[brianstl]

Never mind what I originally posted here. Duff Man covered almost all of it.

I will just add Waldman put up his numbers against better competition 

[3star_recruit]

53 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

It's tough to compare H to Yuri - I just think of them both as on their own tier.

Yuri can do more things than H could when it comes to dribble penetration. H was more of a scorer than Yuri over Yuri's entire career thus far, but H also would never have had a game like last night - and H arrived as a seasoned transfer while Yuri is still evolving as a player.

Stats don't tell the whole story, but here are there cumulative per game stats...

H Waldman 59 games, 30 MPG, 10.8 PPG, 5.0 APG, 2.1 SPG, 2.5 RPG, 2.0 TPG, 3.2/7.2 FG, .443 FG% 2.2/5.3 3P, .420 3P%, 2.2/2.7 FT, .796 FT%  

Yuri Collins 71 games, 30.9 MPG, 7.1 PPG, 6.6 APG, 1.6 SPG, 3.2 RPG, 3.1 TPG, 2.5/6.1 FG, .405 FG%, 0.5/1.5 3P, .327 3P%, 1.7/2.5 FT, .678 FT%

H spent his 2 seasons playing PG for teams where he was the 3rd or 4th leading scorer. His role was consistent. 

Yuri spent 2 seasons where he was not much of a scorer at all as the team had plenty of other options, but now in his 3rd year he's the 2nd leading scorer and ultimately the guy with the ball in his hands on the final shot.

IF Yuri can continue taking and making more 3s, and continue to evolve his all around game over the rest of his career - and most importantly lead the Bills to the NCAA tournament - he'll clearly be above H Waldman in the PG power rankings.

 

The only thing close to an an apples to apples comparison you can make is their respective third year in college.  H was a better shooter, a better protector of the ball and a great passer.  Yuri is a better penetrator and is arguably the best passer in college basketball.  H was a very good defender and so is Yuri. 

The tiebreaker, in my mind, is last night's signature performance that Waldman never had.  In H's defense, he never had to.  That was mostly Claggett's job.

 

 

[almaman]

40 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

The only thing close to an an apples to apples comparison you can make is their respective third year in college.  H was a better shooter, a better protector of the ball and a great passer.  Yuri is a better penetrator and is arguably the best passer in college basketball.  H was a very good defender and so is Yuri. 

The tiebreaker, in my mind, is last night's signature performance that Waldman never had.  In H's defense, he never had to.  That was mostly Claggett's job.

 

 

if he stays here rest of career this will probably not be his signature game I predict.

[Bills By 40]

When Yuri ends up as the all-time NCAA assists leader I just want y'all to eat your words. Until then y'all can have your argument because like you said, I never saw H!!

 

But one thing you're not considering is that Yuri has three more letters in his first name and I can't believe that hasn't been taken into consideration yet. 

[BilliesBy40]

2 hours ago, Duff Man said:

We're seriously comparing the 31 games H played as a bench warmer on arguably the greatest team not to win the NCAA tournament to Yuri's freshman season as if that's apples to apples comparison?

Please those of you too young to have seen H please stop discussing him.

Fair point. I just found it weird you would start with H's year 3 stats (technically, year 4, but his 3rd year playing) and Yuri's year 1 stats and ignore the clear improvement between year 1 and 3.

[Bills By 40]

Just now, BilliesBy40 said:

Fair point. I just found it weird you would start with H's year 3 stats (technically, year 4, but his 3rd year playing) and Yuri's year 1 stats and ignore the clear improvement between year 1 and 3.

But that's convenient for their argument BB40 #2

[Duff Man]

1 hour ago, BilliesBy40 said:

Fair point. I just found it weird you would start with H's year 3 stats (technically, year 4, but his 3rd year playing) and Yuri's year 1 stats and ignore the clear improvement between year 1 and 3.

This post topic is best Billikens point guard ever. Why would we factor in stats from another team?

I didn't ignore Yuri's improvement. Reading comprehension is hard.

YOU chose to ignore the part where I said

Quote

IF Yuri can continue taking and making more 3s, and continue to evolve his all around game over the rest of his career - and most importantly lead the Bills to the NCAA tournament - he'll clearly be above H Waldman in the PG power rankings.

H Waldman gets bonus points for being the addition that got the Bills into the dance for the first time in 37 years. He was not the best player on that team, but the team the year before was 12-17 (1-9 in conference). With H Waldman they became a legit sensation locally and were selling out their hockey area venue.

It would be a more fair comp if Yuri had his own Claggett in Javonte Perkins - and we might have to wait another year to see Yuri go dancing - but it might work out that Perkins' absence causes Yuri to raise his game to a level this season that he might not have otherwise. If he does drag this Billikens team into the dance, he'll be the GOAT for sure.