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2 hours ago, HoosierPal said:

I am certainly agreeing that our defense mojo is gone.  As Ford stated last night, "We can't guard a soul."  It was the same in the Dayton game. 

At this point I'm not sure if playing more players is better than shortening the bench.  Past Ford teams have been primarily 8 deep.  Now Ford is attempting to play 10. The results in conference play haven't been there with any consistency to say, yes this is what we need to do.  One game the bench scores 28 points, and then follows up with 5.  Ford has not shown the inclination to press 94 feet for 40 minutes, so I wouldn't expect that change to happen now.  It's getting pretty late to make some drastic changes.

I really think the defensive problems are ultimately Covid residual related. The energy is lacking, like the tank is out of gas, running on fumes. This being said, there were defensive issues pre-quarantine @ Minnesota.

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probably a better thread for this, but oh well.  first 8(pre and post covid) and last 8 games

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76.6 ppg - 66 PA  /   68.1 - 68.1 -*Excluding ARKPB and C-ARK 

TRB +11.8 / +6.8( Fordham game really helped +29 in that games)

3pt opp 32% / 33% - wash really

3Pt   40.5 / 28.5 (!)

FG 51.2 / 41.8

TO 12.5 / 11 (improvement)

Kenpom opp team average 133 / 124*exclude ArkPB and C-ark

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1 hour ago, billiken_roy said:

we played our starters all 23+ minutes each with the seniors getting 27+ minutes and yuri getting 31.   only thatch and jacobs got double digit minutes beyond the starters.   he is not playing 10 guys.   you can make an argument he is playing 5 with a couple of cameo's

way too much athletes to be bench affixed imo.   and if the argument is athlete's dont necessarily = basketball players, thatch has been around 3 years now, hargrove 2 years, ok i get strickland maybe earning is time so there has been plenty of time to teach them to be basketball players.  (note, i dont agree they arent basketball savvy enough.   just countering the suspected comeback in advance) 

someone mentioned hargrove looked like deer in the headlights last night.  well considering the quick hook he gets, what does one think hargrove's confidence level is at these days?   he's likely terrified of getting yanked.   honestly as good of athletes as hargrove, stickland, jacobs, thatch, even bell's physicality.   wont surprise me if there are defections coming.   i hope i am wrong.  i love this roster.    

I'm looking pretty much at the games since the pause.  (Forget Fordham, it almost doesn't count.)  My guess is that the players are as confused as we are as to their role.  If he wants to go with 8, the players need to know.  If he wants to go with 10, the players need to know.  I agree with you that athletes are nice to have but they need to be basketball players.  I believe it was Rammer, who raves about Strickland's athleticism, recently said he needs to learn how to play college basketball.

We have had transfers every year and that will continue.  The last year it did not happen was after the 13-14 season.  In the last decade we have averaged transfers 2.3 per season.  Transfers are now part of the business. 

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5 minutes ago, wgstl said:

probably a better thread for this, but oh well.  first 8(pre and post covid) and last 8 games

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76.6 ppg - 66 PA  /   68.1 - 68.1 -*Excluding ARKPB and C-ARK 

TRB +11.8 / +6.8( Fordham game really helped +29 in that games)

3pt opp 32% / 33% - wash really

3Pt   40.5 / 28.5 (!)

FG 51.2 / 41.8

TO 12.5 / 11 (improvement)

The shooting is clearly off, too.

That was my own experience, way back when, after a medical related layoff. The shooter returned and couldn’t hit the proverbial broad side of a barn. 

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, kshoe said:

Isn't that the definition of a charge, anywhere? Meaning a charge can only be called if the offensive player initiates contact? 

If that's the case, then why have a circle at all?

I really don’t want to get into this debate but I had no problem with the call. And I have LONG hated the damn circle which I think began with the pros. 

The refs are well paid and should do their jobs. A charge is a charge I don’t care where it happens. The circle is just a cop out for crappy refs. 
 

 

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2 hours ago, billiken_roy said:

while i still think ford is a mediocre at best game coach and development coach, he is the best billiken recruiter head coach we have ever had.   his bringing in that level of quality talent will always put us in the discussion for the tourney.   how many years in the last 50 years have we known from day one of the season it was another "wait till next year".   

losing ford means we start over again.   and our track record of finding a rickma or even a ford isnt good.   i'll stay with ford and hope his recruiting continues at this high level and hope he learns and changes his tactics or the players overachieve and win and get us in the second weekend discussion on a regular basis.  

I agree with you and hope Ford stays.

Coming up on the end of the season it is speculation time when it comes to coaching changes, dominoes falling and various rumors. People had talked about Ford's house being for sale and whatever that may mean, I had someone reach out to me yesterday whispering TF to University of Miami. Pure speculation but it didn't seem too far fetched when I looked at the University of Miami basketball season performance and current coaching situation. Debated if I should even share but ultimately that is way there are fan boards! Hard for me to believe TF would be their 1st choice. More like a plan b or c.

Do you think their fan base would be excited about TF landing there? I am not so sure.

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23 minutes ago, pakapablo said:

Do you think their fan base would be excited about TF landing there? I am not so sure.

Laranaga hit a dry spell the last few years but he's had 2 sweet 16s at Miami plus a Final 4 at GM. The negative is he's in his 70s. TF is 1-6 in the NCAAs in 21 yrs of Div 1. I don't think TF going anywhere. Also, didn't we just resign him? 

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44 minutes ago, pakapablo said:

I agree with you and hope Ford stays.

Coming up on the end of the season it is speculation time when it comes to coaching changes, dominoes falling and various rumors. People had talked about Ford's house being for sale and whatever that may mean, I had someone reach out to me yesterday whispering TF to University of Miami. Pure speculation but it didn't seem too far fetched when I looked at the University of Miami basketball season performance and current coaching situation. Debated if I should even share but ultimately that is way there are fan boards! Hard for me to believe TF would be their 1st choice. More like a plan b or c.

Do you think their fan base would be excited about TF landing there? I am not so sure.

It isn't a slight to Ford to say that his tenure here has not been good enough to put him on the radar for higher level jobs......

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1 hour ago, Bay Area Billiken said:

I really think the defensive problems are ultimately Covid residual related. The energy is lacking, like the tank is out of gas, running on fumes. This being said, there were defensive issues pre-quarantine @ Minnesota.

all the more reason we should be playing our bench more.   instead it seems the rotation has been tightened.

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8 minutes ago, Billiken Rich said:

The next games before the tournament we should probably clear the bench and run like hell......

Shouldn’t worry about wins. Worry about getting some sort of swagger back 

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1 hour ago, pakapablo said:

I agree with you and hope Ford stays.

Coming up on the end of the season it is speculation time when it comes to coaching changes, dominoes falling and various rumors. People had talked about Ford's house being for sale and whatever that may mean, I had someone reach out to me yesterday whispering TF to University of Miami. Pure speculation but it didn't seem too far fetched when I looked at the University of Miami basketball season performance and current coaching situation. Debated if I should even share but ultimately that is way there are fan boards! Hard for me to believe TF would be their 1st choice. More like a plan b or c.

Do you think their fan base would be excited about TF landing there? I am not so sure.

Martin's name has also been floated for the Miami job.

I think it's just message board talk.

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1 hour ago, kshoe said:

Isn't that the definition of a charge, anywhere? Meaning a charge can only be called if the offensive player initiates contact? 

If that's the case, then why have a circle at all?

The semi-circle is for 50-50 calls where the contact is incidental to the play - which usually means a planted defender and an offensive player making a play directly at the basket. If there's enough contact to warrant a foul, was the defender set and outside the semi-circle, or was he inside and therefore too close to the basket to be anything other than a physical impediment? So the determination is made from there.

The semi-circle isn't a magical line that allows an offensive player to do whatever he wants to a defender. In this case, French can't lower his shoulder and initiate contact. If he just goes up, there's likely no whistle.

So of his five fouls - which I said on Twitter were all incredibly small and unsatisfying, even if some should've been called - that one is probably the one I take the least issue with.

All of that said, I hate the charge rule and think it needs to be thrown out and rewritten. The incentives are all wrong. I hate it the most when a player is going to the basket and another guy slides over just in the knick of time, plants his feet with his arms straight up, and turns what would've been a dunk or layup into a collision, especially when the offensive player is already in the air. Why are we rewarding players for initiating unnecessary contact - thereby putting both the defender and ball handler at injury risk - and depriving fans of the kinds of offensive plays they want to see?

I would honestly drop the term "charge" and just use "player control foul" for cases when the offensive player is initiating contact, not making a play at the basket, being reckless, using an elbow or knee, etc.

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The other frustrating part of last night's game is that the refs bit on VCU's flops every time. Some were actually warranted, but not nearly all of those. And like I said earlier in this thread, VCU clearly works on that. They had a willing buyer for what they were selling and we paid for it.

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3 minutes ago, Pistol said:

The semi-circle is for 50-50 calls where the contact is incidental to the play - which usually means a planted defender and an offensive player making a play directly at the basket. If there's enough contact to warrant a foul, was the defender set and outside the semi-circle, or was he inside and therefore too close to the basket to be anything other than a physical impediment? So the determination is made from there.

The semi-circle isn't a magical line that allows an offensive player to do whatever he wants to a defender. In this case, French can't lower his shoulder and initiate contact. If he just goes up, there's likely no whistle.

So of his five fouls - which I said on Twitter were all incredibly small and unsatisfying, even if some should've been called - that one is probably the one I take the least issue with.

All of that said, I hate the charge rule and think it needs to be thrown out and rewritten. The incentives are all wrong. I hate it the most when a player is going to the basket and another guy slides over just in the knick of time, plants his feet with his arms straight up, and turns what would've been a dunk or layup into a collision, especially when the offensive player is already in the air. Why are we rewarding players for initiating unnecessary contact - thereby putting both the defender and ball handler at injury risk - and depriving fans of the kinds of offensive plays they want to see?

I would honestly drop the term "charge" and just use "player control foul" for cases when the offensive player is initiating contact, not making a play at the basket, being reckless, using an elbow or knee, etc.

The help-side charge rule is currently the most dangerous play in college basketball. It doesn't reward good defense and it doesn't improve the quality of gameplay. It is like a loophole in basketball that for some reason gets treated as if it's dignified. And I am embarrassed on the behalf of all of the college basketball referees who seem to take such tremendous joy in calling a charge whenever they can.

The rule makes no sense and I have never heard a good defense of it.

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8 minutes ago, NH said:

The help-side charge rule is currently the most dangerous play in college basketball. It doesn't reward good defense and it doesn't improve the quality of gameplay. It is like a loophole in basketball that for some reason gets treated as if it's dignified. And I am embarrassed on the behalf of all of the college basketball referees who seem to take such tremendous joy in calling a charge whenever they can.

The rule makes no sense and I have never heard a good defense of it.

Never - because it's indefensible.

You nailed the other reason I would remove the word "charge" from the rulebook - the signal that goes with it. Guys like Teddy Valentine have so much fun with it. My proposal if they won't get rid of the call is to change the hand signal to this:

200w.gif

That way, none of these egomaniac refs would get so excited to call charges, defenders wouldn't be rewarded for acting like trees to stop plays people actually want to see, and gameplay would improve considerably.

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22 minutes ago, AGB91 said:

Martin's name has also been floated for the Miami job.

I think it's just message board talk.

I looked Laranaga’s contract status  and he is signed through 23-24. No idea how big a buy out that would be. 

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17 hours ago, BillsBeliever!!! said:

This wasn’t the game that killed us. The games that killed us were the first two back from the COVID pause v Dayton and at LaSalle. Win those and were still firmly in the bubble right now

This.  VCU on the road is a game that you may expect to lose unless you think the Bills were going to go undefeated in conference.  If we win both Dayton games and LaSalle, then this close loss to the top team in our conference on the road is only a ding to our seed in the tournament.  I know everyone is upset, but this loss isn't the reason our season is on the brink right now.

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17 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

Stuff we can control:

Jimerson needs to shoot when he's open.  I saw him pass up a money shot with less than two minutes left.  Dude, that's why you're out there.  He got another open opportunity shortly after and missed but I can accept that.  He needs to get used to shooting daggers when we need them.

The three seniors stepped up and did what they were supposed to do.  That's a good sign.  It's your show, gentlemen.  Props to Has for showing doubters that he's still Hasahn M'Fin French.

Stuff we can't control:

Yuri's inability to make sharp change of direction on that ankle.  He's trying to grind his way through it but he's not fooling anybody.  There's only so much offense we can generate without him being fast and precise.

 

I want to add to things we can control: When one of our guys in near the basket and three defenders are on him, please pass the ball to the wide open Jimerson who is standing and waiting for it at the three point line.  It seems like our guys only get him the ball to get shots when someone is near him.  The times he is wide open, we don't pass to him, but force the ball up in triple coverage.

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2 hours ago, billiken_roy said:

all the more reason we should be playing our bench more.   instead it seems the rotation has been tightened.

I remember a time, long long ago, when players earned their playing time. When matchups mattered. Now, it appears to be a coaching style to play eight, 10 or whatever regardless of what the players do.  And VCU on the road is a good time to see what Strickland can do?  Hargrove git minutes last game and went 3 of 9. No, we can’t just lose a tough game on the road with bad reffinging calls and unlucky breaks but we also must tear down our players, our coach and then invent rumors of transfers and coaching changes. SLU’s  medical school should open the doors and hand out valium to many on this Board. 

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Some clarity on the block/charge. It used to be the defender had to be in a legal guarding position (LGP)( 2 feet on the ground, straight up, not leaning and in front of the offensive player ) before the player left the ground. The defender now has to be in a LGP before the offensive player begins their upward motion. 

I disagree that the help side block is a poor defensive play. So once a player beats their man the other defenders have to just watch? No, the other defenders need to help, they just need to get their in time. Offensive players need to stay balanced and in control. 

It's a hard call to make because you're talking about a split second at a high rate of speed. 

The defender can  be moving along with the offensive player. The old idea that he wasn't set or he was moving really only comes into play when a defender is in a LGP but then leans, moves his feet (no longer in a LGP) and makes contact as the offensive player is going by him or is moving and hasn't yet established an LGP

Changing to beginning upward motion is a start, but imo not enough as a player moving at full speed can't make the adjustment to their path as they come down on their jump foot before they begin their upward motion. No athlete no even Barry Sanders can run at 90% full speed and adjust that quickly. Imo it should be before they begin their upward or forward motion of their plant on the step prior to their jump. If a defender is moving in a LGP along with and parallel to the offensive player and the offensive player turns into the path of the defender it should then be the the upward or forward motion after the last planted foot.

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2 hours ago, Pistol said:

The semi-circle is for 50-50 calls where the contact is incidental to the play - which usually means a planted defender and an offensive player making a play directly at the basket. If there's enough contact to warrant a foul, was the defender set and outside the semi-circle, or was he inside and therefore too close to the basket to be anything other than a physical impediment? So the determination is made from there.

The semi-circle isn't a magical line that allows an offensive player to do whatever he wants to a defender. In this case, French can't lower his shoulder and initiate contact. If he just goes up, there's likely no whistle.

So of his five fouls - which I said on Twitter were all incredibly small and unsatisfying, even if some should've been called - that one is probably the one I take the least issue with.

All of that said, I hate the charge rule and think it needs to be thrown out and rewritten. The incentives are all wrong. I hate it the most when a player is going to the basket and another guy slides over just in the knick of time, plants his feet with his arms straight up, and turns what would've been a dunk or layup into a collision, especially when the offensive player is already in the air. Why are we rewarding players for initiating unnecessary contact - thereby putting both the defender and ball handler at injury risk - and depriving fans of the kinds of offensive plays they want to see?

I would honestly drop the term "charge" and just use "player control foul" for cases when the offensive player is initiating contact, not making a play at the basket, being reckless, using an elbow or knee, etc.

If the defender moves in when the player is already in the air, it's a block not a charge. The player must be in a legal guarding position before the upward motion of the offensive player begins. Your gripe here isn't with the rule (though I think it's still too late for the offensive player to change his course) but with the official not properly calling it. 

Go to the 7 min mark of the 1st half Perkins takes a charge. By the rule as written it's a correct call offensive foul. However, I don't believe the offensive player could adjust his path in time to avoid contact from the moment Perkins was in a LGP. The offensive player needs more time to avoid contact. 

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40 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

I disagree that the help side block is a poor defensive play. So once a player beats their man the other defenders have to just watch? No, the other defenders need to help, they just need to get their in time. Offensive players need to stay balanced and in control.

I am not saying  that there is no such thing as good help side defense. I think help side defense is important. But their incentive should be to make a basketball play such as contesting the shot or trying to strip the ball. If the offensive player is out of control, or goes out of his way to create contact, I think it should be an offensive foul. However, I don’t think the help side Cody Ellis charge, which does not reward skill or athleticism and is also somewhat dangerous, should be considered a good defensive play. 

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